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If there is no afterlife, is there a point to living a moral, selfless life?

Renae

Renae

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I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself? Do the hedonist have the right of it? Is the real bit of life to get what you can, live wild and die when life isn't worth it anymore? After all, the moment you "cease" it won't matter if you were Mother Teresa or the most wild party kid.

I've struggled with that question, as a believer, "what if I'm wrong". Was my mothers death more tragic at such a young age, or a blessing to her not to deal with the crap of life? As an example.

If there is an afterlife, be it the "Heaven for the good, Hell for the bad" or some other post-death existence, does that make the injustices of the world less in the end, the actions of your life have more meaning?
 
Renae said:
I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself? Do the hedonist have the right of it? Is the real bit of life to get what you can, live wild and die when life isn't worth it anymore? After all, the moment you "cease" it won't matter if you were Mother Teresa or the most wild party kid.

I've struggled with that question, as a believer, "what if I'm wrong". Was my mothers death more tragic at such a young age, or a blessing to her not to deal with the crap of life? As an example.

If there is an afterlife, be it the "Heaven for the good, Hell for the bad" or some other post-death existence, does that make the injustices of the world less in the end, the actions of your life have more meaning?
Click to expand...

There is a final Judgment for all the wicked people who escaped Judgment on earth, like Hitler. And for unbelievers and Christ mockers, who will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8, etc.).
 
Social behavior is not a unique province of humans.

Most life forms practice it to some degree. Do salmon kill themselves in the act of swimming upstream to procreate do it in order to get a prime seat nearest the heavenly salmon father in the celestial salmon choir?
 
Logicman said:
There is a final Judgment for all the wicked people who escaped Judgment on earth, like Hitler. And for unbelievers and Christ mockers, who will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8, etc.).
Click to expand...

I believe that is the case, but.. there is always that hanging out there. What if I am wrong?
 
Renae said:
I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself? Do the hedonist have the right of it? Is the real bit of life to get what you can, live wild and die when life isn't worth it anymore? After all, the moment you "cease" it won't matter if you were Mother Teresa or the most wild party kid.

I've struggled with that question, as a believer, "what if I'm wrong". Was my mothers death more tragic at such a young age, or a blessing to her not to deal with the crap of life? As an example.

If there is an afterlife, be it the "Heaven for the good, Hell for the bad" or some other post-death existence, does that make the injustices of the world less in the end, the actions of your life have more meaning?
Click to expand...

I'm an atheist and a hedonist, but being a hedonist doesn't mean you do everything solely for yourself. I've always thought (I still do) that pursuing happiness is the only real 'meaning of life' and whilst it might be easy to dismiss hedonists as simple selfish pleasure seekers, that isn't necessarily the case. Many people achieve happiness, fulfillment or meaning through seeing others achieve and grow, through helping their community, through safeguarding nature, through applying their talents in art, through discovery of new places and things, or simply in being useful. You're living for yourself, but that isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with doing good for the world around you.

This is something I learnt recently when I went traveling for an extended period of time. The whole experience was one thrill inducing pleasure seeking hedonistic ride, but I found the most happiness and meaning out of the time I spent volunteering - contributing to something bigger than I am. The times partying and beach-going were fun but after a while left me a little empty.
 
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Renae said:
I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself? Do the hedonist have the right of it? Is the real bit of life to get what you can, live wild and die when life isn't worth it anymore? After all, the moment you "cease" it won't matter if you were Mother Teresa or the most wild party kid.

I've struggled with that question, as a believer, "what if I'm wrong". Was my mothers death more tragic at such a young age, or a blessing to her not to deal with the crap of life? As an example.

If there is an afterlife, be it the "Heaven for the good, Hell for the bad" or some other post-death existence, does that make the injustices of the world less in the end, the actions of your life have more meaning?
Click to expand...

If nothing else, the life of an unbeliever is a rather selfish, unimaginative life... "I'll believe it when I see it" seems pretty like a pretty boring philosophy.

No faith? No hope?

No thanks.



"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." - Psalm 14:1
 
Renae said:
I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself?
Click to expand...

I'm an agnostic but decided long ago to live my life on the premise ... that there is something after this life. No regrets.
 
SoulFire77 said:
If nothing else, the life of an unbeliever is a rather selfish, unimaginative life... "I'll believe it when I see it" seems pretty like a pretty boring philosophy.

No faith? No hope?

No thanks.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." - Psalm 14:1
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The atheists that do good in this life are doing it because they know that this is the only chance they'll have to do so. Why is that selfish?
 
Nilly said:
The atheists that do good in this life are doing it because they know that this is the only chance they'll have to do so. Why is that selfish?
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This life is the only chance any of us have to "do good"... Believer and unbeliever, alike.

I guess, it's an over-simplification to say atheists only do good deeds to satisfy their ego ("I want to be seen as a good person")... Of course, it's also an over-simplification to say that believers in God only do good deeds because they fear judgment - which I have heard many times.
 
SoulFire77 said:
If nothing else, the life of an unbeliever is a rather selfish, unimaginative life... "I'll believe it when I see it" seems pretty like a pretty boring philosophy.

No faith? No hope?

No thanks.



"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." - Psalm 14:1
Click to expand...

[too many "prettys" - I know... I just saw it.]
 
SoulFire77 said:
This life is the only chance any of us have to "do good"... Believer and unbeliever, alike.

I guess, it's an over-simplification to say atheists only do good deeds to satisfy their ego ("I want to be seen as a good person")... Of course, it's also an over-simplification to say that believers in God only do good deeds because they fear judgment - which I have heard many times.
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It's almost as if each of us has the capacity to do good regardless of what we think happens when we pop our clogs. That it's not reliant upon, or beholden to, any higher power. Isn't that lovely.

Side question based on your first point though: do you not have free will in heaven???
 
Renae said:
I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself? Do the hedonist have the right of it? Is the real bit of life to get what you can, live wild and die when life isn't worth it anymore? After all, the moment you "cease" it won't matter if you were Mother Teresa or the most wild party kid.

I've struggled with that question, as a believer, "what if I'm wrong". Was my mothers death more tragic at such a young age, or a blessing to her not to deal with the crap of life? As an example.

If there is an afterlife, be it the "Heaven for the good, Hell for the bad" or some other post-death existence, does that make the injustices of the world less in the end, the actions of your life have more meaning?
Click to expand...

Lets look at it from another point of view. If your beliefs are correct, why should I do good? I'm damned, and all my works are abominable, regardless of how I live. Why should any non-Christian be anything other than hedonistic and cruel?
 
Logicman said:
There is a final Judgment for all the wicked people who escaped Judgment on earth, like Hitler. And for unbelievers and Christ mockers, who will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8, etc.).
Click to expand...

Yet all the good Christian soldiers that carried out the Holocaust for Hitler are in Heaven, because they repented. Your God is unjust.
 
Nilly said:
It's almost as if each of us has the capacity to do good regardless of what we think happens when we pop our clogs. That it's not reliant upon, or beholden to, any higher power. Isn't that lovely.

Side question based on your first point though: do you not have free will in heaven???
Click to expand...

I think that everyone is born with a conscious. It's why most religions have some version of the "Golden Rule." No one needs to "teach" you that hurting other people is wrong - you know it's wrong because you don't want to get hurt by someone either.

To answer your other question, I think you are confusing the secular notion of Heaven (cherubs with harps, sitting on clouds, etc.) with Biblical "Heaven"...

The Bible says that a saved person's "work" (life) is still judged by fire, and they will be rewarded for righteousness - but all of their unworthy deeds will be burned away in the fire. They will escape Hell, but only as one who walked through the fire. I take this to mean that our sinful nature (and our memories of it) will be burned away.

The Bible also says that Satan and his followers will die a "second death" in a lake of fire. The Earth and all of creation will also "pass away".

Then, there will be a new universe (heaven, with a lower case "h"), and a new Earth. God's people will live there forever. They will still have free will, but with no more sinful nature and no sinful influence. Also, no reason to sin with every need met.
 
Renae said:
I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself? Do the hedonist have the right of it? Is the real bit of life to get what you can, live wild and die when life isn't worth it anymore? After all, the moment you "cease" it won't matter if you were Mother Teresa or the most wild party kid.

I've struggled with that question, as a believer, "what if I'm wrong". Was my mothers death more tragic at such a young age, or a blessing to her not to deal with the crap of life? As an example.

If there is an afterlife, be it the "Heaven for the good, Hell for the bad" or some other post-death existence, does that make the injustices of the world less in the end, the actions of your life have more meaning?
Click to expand...

Renae, anything that happens to us in a lifetime of 70-80 years is merely a drop in the bucket when we consider everlasting life...so yes, all the injustices in this life mean nothing in the end...

"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart." Isaiah 65:17

And you can count on it being better than anything you can ever imagine in this world...

"But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 1 Cor. 2:9
 
Renae said:
I ask this in all sincerity, if it's your born, you live, you die and return to a state of utter oblivion... what's the point of living for anyone but yourself? Do the hedonist have the right of it? Is the real bit of life to get what you can, live wild and die when life isn't worth it anymore? After all, the moment you "cease" it won't matter if you were Mother Teresa or the most wild party kid.

I've struggled with that question, as a believer, "what if I'm wrong". Was my mothers death more tragic at such a young age, or a blessing to her not to deal with the crap of life? As an example.

If there is an afterlife, be it the "Heaven for the good, Hell for the bad" or some other post-death existence, does that make the injustices of the world less in the end, the actions of your life have more meaning?
Click to expand...
I choose to focus on how miraculous it is that i get a life to live at all. And that i have a loving wife and a kid that i can spend time with and hopefully teach my kid to be a good person amd to live life.

Life is like a book. Just because you finished reading the book doesnt mean that the book didnt matter and it doesnt mean you shouldnt enjoy the hell out of it.

As far as being good, im good because it makes me fedl good. Ive killed and raped as many people as ive wanted too. None.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
 
spud_meister said:
Lets look at it from another point of view. If your beliefs are correct, why should I do good? I'm damned, and all my works are abominable, regardless of how I live. Why should any non-Christian be anything other than hedonistic and cruel?
Click to expand...

I have long moved from the belief only Christians end up in a good afterlife. Though I am a Christian and believe faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the best path to a better after life, there are moments I can step outside my faith, my beliefs and question them. It's a terrible struggle between faith and reason. The two fight constantly but every now and then come together for a glorious conclusion.
 
Elvira said:
Renae, anything that happens to us in a lifetime of 70-80 years is merely a drop in the bucket when we consider everlasting life...so yes, all the injustices in this life mean nothing in the end...

"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart." Isaiah 65:17

And you can count on it being better than anything you can ever imagine in this world...

"But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 1 Cor. 2:9
Click to expand...

There's a site out there, near-death.com I like reading through the claims of those that have "seen the otherside". Obviously I realize what is what, and there are a number of "yeah... you're full of ****" stories, but there are so many that make me think.

I don't think the next journey, after this one is over, is what any of us can imagine, should it be. It's the "how could it be possible" I struggle with.
 
Renae said:
There's a site out there, near-death.com I like reading through the claims of those that have "seen the otherside". Obviously I realize what is what, and there are a number of "yeah... you're full of ****" stories, but there are so many that make me think.

I don't think the next journey, after this one is over, is what any of us can imagine, should it be. It's the "how could it be possible" I struggle with.
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All I can tell ya is because God promises it...Num. 23:19; Isa. 55:11; Heb 6:13-18...
 
Elvira said:
All I can tell ya is because God promises it...Num. 23:19; Isa. 55:11; Heb 6:13-18...
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You don't have to sell me on it, but I am able to question things too, even if they are just intellectual exercises.
 
Renae said:
You don't have to sell me on it, but I am able to question things too, even if they are just intellectual exercises.
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Absolutely...that's human nature...I suggest reading God's Word daily and praying...that helps to build your faith like nothing else...
 
Near death experiences are the result of the brain beginning shutdown. It's not death. The experiences are always culturally related, and highly redacted by the individual concerned. Nobody meets Allah to be told they've been praying to the wrong god. (Or vice versa)

As to living a moral life, if this is the only life I've got, then I want it to be the best it can be. In order for that to happen I need to be the best I can be, and spread it around to make my friends and family's lives the best they can be too.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Near death experiences are the result of the brain beginning shutdown. It's not death. The experiences are always culturally related, and highly redacted by the individual concerned. Nobody meets Allah to be told they've been praying to the wrong god. (Or vice versa)

As to living a moral life, if this is the only life I've got, then I want it to be the best it can be. In order for that to happen I need to be the best I can be, and spread it around to make my friends and family's lives the best they can be too.
Click to expand...

Read the research, even if it's skeptically. I started that way, and I believe at least some of these people really have seen the other side.
 
Renae said:
Read the research, even if it's skeptically. I started that way, and I believe at least some of these people really have seen the other side.
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I have. There's nothing out there.
 
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