GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

Casper · Aug 26, 2018

tosca1 said:
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, meaning a Trinity. Is that all? That's it???

Reading won't cut it......if you're not getting what you read.
And by your own admission - obviously you haven't put as much thought into what you've read.
Refer to my rebuttals to you.

It takes studies to understand the Bible.

Your "studying" and "understanding" are obviously flawed and obvious not open to change. Believe whatever you wish, one day you will be enlightened.

tosca1 · Aug 26, 2018

Casper said:
Your "studying" and "understanding" are obviously flawed and obvious not open to change. Believe whatever you wish, one day you will be enlightened.

Well? You guys never give a sensible rebuttal. At least you're still here, you hadn't ran away or disappeared.....yet.
Why don't you explain how my understanding is flawed? I gave numerous evidences from the Scriptures - why don't you discuss them?

And, why don't you answer my question?

If Jesus isn't God Himself - then he's contradicting his own teachings. Why do you believe a man who contradicts himself?

Casper · Aug 26, 2018

tosca1 said:
Well? You guys never give a sensible rebuttal. At least you're still here, you hadn't ran away or disappeared.....yet.
Why don't you explain how my understanding is flawed? I gave numerous evidences from the Scriptures - why don't you discuss them?

And, why don't you answer my question?

If Jesus isn't God Himself - then he's contradicting his own teachings. Why do you believe a man who contradicts himself?

First off I normally do not get into discussion on religion, FYI I am a Believer. Sorry, I did not see your questions since I have had you on ignore for a while now, so hence I have only replied sparingly. Will look back at the replies and get back to ya. Fair enough.

tosca1 · Aug 27, 2018

Casper said:
First off I normally do not get into discussion on religion, FYI I am a Believer. Sorry, I did not see your questions since I have had you on ignore for a while now, so hence I have only replied sparingly. Will look back at the replies and get back to ya. Fair enough.

Did you at least read the evidences I gave? If I'm on ignore - chances are - you hadn't!

I don't care whether you're a believer or not. It's all about your post.
And now you tell me you responded while you've been ignorant about the arguments/evidences given on this thread?
Oh boy. You may be a believer....... but you "reason" like the typical new atheist.:mrgreen:

Well - since you know very well that I created this thread - while I don't mind you coming in, for the life of me I can't understand how you can know what this thread is all about if you hadn't read my OP! How could you read my OP and all other posts I gave if you have me on ignore??? Lol.

No wonder you can only respond "sparingly." :lol:

In other words, you came blasting in here - both barrels blazing - without even knowing the lineup of canons and drones
that will greet you??? :lol:

How do you discuss if you don't even know what the given arguments/evidences are??? You're groping blindly?
So.....all you give are just your standard knee-jerk comment! Empty talking points!

Talk about being ridiculous!

If you don't mind, what denomination do you belong to?

Casper · Aug 27, 2018

tosca1 said:
Did you at least read the evidences I gave? If I'm on ignore - chances are - you hadn't!

I don't care whether you're a believer or not. It's all about your post.
And now you tell me you responded while you've been ignorant about the arguments/evidences given on this thread?
Oh boy. You may be a believer....... but you "reason" like the typical new atheist.:mrgreen:

Well - since you know very well that I created this thread - while I don't mind you coming in, for the life of me I can't understand how you can know what this thread is all about if you hadn't read my OP! How could you read my OP and all other posts I gave if you have me on ignore??? Lol.

No wonder you can only respond "sparingly." :lol:

In other words, you came blasting in here - both barrels blazing - without even knowing the lineup of canons and drones
that will greet you??? :lol:

How do you discuss if you don't even know what the given arguments/evidences are??? You're groping blindly?
So.....all you give are just your standard knee-jerk comment! Empty talking points!

Talk about being ridiculous!

If you don't mind, what denomination do you belong to?

Wow, thanks for reminding me why I have you on my Ignore list. Oh well. Good Luck with that attitude, you're gonna need it.

tosca1 · Aug 27, 2018

Casper said:
Wow, thanks for reminding me why I have you on my Ignore list. Oh well. Good Luck with that attitude, you're gonna need it.

Well, you deserve it! What do you think? Why shouldn't I point that out?
You come into my thread giving your comment........

Casper
Jesus is the Son of God, he is not his Father. Argue the point if you wish, but that would require one to believe Jesus was talking to himself on many occasions, including while on the cross.
Ridiculous thing thinking prevails in some Christian Sects.

Click to expand...

.......you were rudely insulting to boot!

AND then, it turns out you haven't read anything I wrote! All this time, you've got the author on ignore. :mrgreen:

And you're offended???

I question your attitude. You're in a forum, you know. We're not here shooting the breeze.

So, you'll also run away. Meh. I'm not surprised about that. That seems to be another typical reaction whenever that question is given. Another deflection strategy some gave, "I already answered it, but I don't want to repeat it."

Cheers.

crazyme · Sep 14, 2018

tosca1 said:
Isaiah 44
There Is No Other God

6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

the LORD : 3068. Yhvh : the proper name of the God of Israel

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3068.htm

Qur'an : 20:14
Sahih International: Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance.

tosca1 · Oct 28, 2018

Mark 2
Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralyzed Man

2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

Indeed, who can but God alone can forgive sins?
So.....by declaring the man's sins are forgiven, Jesus was claiming He is God.

Telling the man to pick up his mat and walk, is, showing them the proof, that He is who He claims He is.

“I am trying to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say.
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic–on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg–or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse.
You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God."

(CS Lewis, Mere Christianity)

tosca1 · Oct 28, 2018

Isaiah 43
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.

Isaiah 44
24
“This is what the Lord says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb

John 4
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

tosca1 · Oct 28, 2018

Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

crazyme · Nov 5, 2018

I'd like to think that wherever (J)esus Christ is, there also will be God.

tosca1 · Nov 12, 2018

Jesus is The Lord of the Sabbath.

Matthew 12
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

What does it mean that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath?

The phrase “the Lord of the Sabbath” is found in Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, and Luke 6:5.
In all three instances Jesus is referring to Himself as the Lord of the Sabbath or, as Mark records it, “The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28). In these verses, Jesus is proclaiming that He is the One who exercises authority even over the rules and regulations that govern the Sabbath day.

As such, Jesus was proclaiming to the world, especially to the legalistic Pharisees, that He was greater than the Law and above the laws of the Mosaic Covenant because, as God in flesh, He is the Author of those laws.

When He said, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27), Jesus was attesting to the fact that, just as the Sabbath day was originally instituted to give man rest from his labors, so did He come to provide us rest from laboring to achieve our own salvation by our works.

Because of His sacrifice on the cross, we can now forever cease laboring to attain God’s favor and rest in His mercy and grace.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Lord-of-the-Sabbath.html

tosca1 · Nov 28, 2018

Titus 2

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

tosca1 · Dec 2, 2018

Found this embedded in Hebrew 1.

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

Hebrews 13
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.

tosca1 · Dec 2, 2018

And, here's another verse that invokes the Triune God.

1 Peter 1

2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

tosca1 · Dec 19, 2018

Thanks to Elvira for providing this:

Romans 8

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Christ in you = God in you = the Spirit in you.

tosca1 · Jan 29, 2019

1 Cor 2

8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the
Lord of glory.

9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,

16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we have the mind of Christ.

The person with the Spirit knows the mind of God - BECAUSE HE HAS THE MIND OF
JESUS CHRIST!

God, His Spirit, Jesus Christ - they are One and the Same!

tosca1 · Jan 30, 2019

John 10 provides a very deep explanation of God/Jesus being One and the Same.

John 10

I and the Father Are One

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter,
23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon.
24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

30 I and the Father are one.”

Verses 28 and 29 cannot be quoted separately without taking the message out of context (as it was done in another thread - Trinitarianism = Polytheism).
They belong together because they are a "comparison" statement.

In John 10, not only did Jesus describe Himself as the giver of life (a description given to God), but also given
this statement:

NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND.

Why?

Verse 29 provides the answer:

Because being God Himself.......

.......NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF HIS HAND!

That explanation is farther cemented by a straightforward declaration:

I and the Father are One.

Can't get any clearer than that.

tosca1 · Feb 3, 2019

Here's another logical reason why God and Jesus are One and the Same.
They have to be!

If God is Love...........how can anyone think Jesus is not God Himself, and yet at the same time, can say that God is a loving Father?

Why would God sacrifice and kill His own Son.........when He abhors parents sacrificing their children?

When God tested Abraham with Isaac - God did not let Abraham kill his son.
Why would God kill His own son?

You think it went like this?

God: I love you.....so I'm gonna make a sacrifice for you.
I'm gonna get my own son to suffer physically (to feel all the pain), and die for you!
Because, that's how much I love you.

Boy, it's easy for God to say that when it's another (Jesus) who's going to go through all the pain and suffering, and do the dying!

Nope. That doesn't make any sense at all. That wouldn't be a loving Father at all.
That would make God, a hypocrite.

tosca1 · Feb 17, 2019

Isaiah 55 begins with

Invitation to the Thirsty

55 “Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;

We know this refers to Christ.

John 4
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Isaiah 55
2
Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.
3
Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.

I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.

The bread refers to Christ (He is the Bread of life) - John 6.......
............. and yet it was God who'd made a covenant with David.

Isaiah 55

6
Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.

7
Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

"....to the Lord," and "...and to our God."

That line seems to refer to two separate entities.....................
.......................and yet the rest of the verse below (with God talking), makes them ONE.
The Lord (Jesus), and God are One and the same.

8
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

tecoyah · Feb 17, 2019

tosca1 said:
Isaiah 55

6
Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.

7
Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

"....to the Lord," and "...and to our God."

That line seems to refer to two separate entities.....................
.......................and yet the rest of the verse (with God talking), makes them ONE.
The Lord (Jesus), and God are One and the same.

8
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

…….Neat.....

tosca1 · Mar 6, 2019

Thanks to the new thread by OldNate, there is an additional biblical evidence: the First Commandment.

If we believe Jesus Christ is not God Himself, then it means..........

.......... the New Testament is filled with heretical teachings of Jesus Christ.

We can't say the Old Testament is the Word of God - and yet at the same time, believe that
Jesus is not God Himself.

We can't have it both ways.

How is that?

Exodus 20

And God spoke all these words, saying,

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God,

Don't we have the image of the CROSS -and don't we associate it with Jesus?

When we sing about the cross - whom are we singing about? JESUS CHRIST!
Therefore, we have made ourselves a carved image (symbolizing a man - who is made in the likeness of God in heaven above).

If the first Commandment forbids us to serve others, then why are we supposed to be serving Jesus Christ, if He's not God Himself??

Colosians 3
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.
23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,
24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Romans 12
11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.

John 26

26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be.

Even the ritual of the Last Supper (in remembrance of Jesus Christ), takes on a whole new meaning too. It's about Jesus Christ - not God.

If He isn't God Himself, Jesus Christ contradicts the Bible. Jesus Christ also contradicts Himself.
That makes Him just another false prophet among many.

if we believe that He is not God Himself, whether we want to accept it or not........

...................... we commit idolatry in Jesus Christ.

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2019

Thanks to a discussion in another thread, I found another evidence:

John 1

18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

In verse 18, "seeing God" is meant in the sense of seeing God the Father in a physical, literal sense. God chose to reveal Himself in certain forms in the past, but He is essentially a Spirit (John 4:24).
The gospel of John describes Jesus as the "Word" of God, using the Greek word logos.
Jesus is the message, or the definition, of God. Words are tangible symbols of ideas, both for our eyes and our ears.
The fact that God came in human form is critical.
Jesus is a human being who experiences our struggles (Hebrews 4:15), one to whom we can relate.
Jesus is a message from God, in a language we all understand: relationship.

Jesus explains God to us in a way we could never understand otherwise.

Here, John also repeats the claim that Jesus is God. The Greek term monogenes is used here, as well as in verse 14 and John 3:16,
both for the phrase "oOne and oOnly." This word means Jesus is of the exact same "stuff" as God the Father.

What does John 1:18 mean?

Not only is the relationship between Father and Son used in a language we can all understand, but there's also about the relationship between Husband/Groom and His bride (church) - that refers to love (and joy), and may also explain spiritual adultery!

Revelation 19:7
"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."

2 Cor 12:2
For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.

Remember......

In the Old Testament, God has likened the pain inflicted by idolatry as something similar to the pain inflicted by adultery. And here is Jesus (God Himself), in the role of the Groom to His bride.

tosca1 · Apr 12, 2019

The relationship between Husband and bride shown above, has opened up another evidence
that Jesus is God Himself.

Isaiah 54:5

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name;
and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Revelation 19:7-9
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

marke · Apr 20, 2019

Casper said:
Jesus is the Son of God, he is not his Father. Argue the point if you wish, but that would require one to believe Jesus was talking to himself on many occasions, including while on the cross. Ridiculous thing thinking prevails in some Christian Sects.

Nobody can understand God fully. He is not like men and his nature cannot be fully comprehended in human terms. Don't try to use human reasoning to disprove what the Bible says about God. If Jesus and the Father are said to be one then just believe it whether you understand it or not.

GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

Illusionary