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GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

John 20
Seeing and Believing

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”



There is only One God.

Why would Thomas refer to Jesus as his God?

If Jesus is not God, why didn't he correct Thomas? Why did He leave Thomas believing He's God?
 
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Let's revisit this chapter again:



Revelation 21

All Things Made New

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”


5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.






We know Jesus is The Alpha and The Omega.
If God Himself will dwell with the saved (and He will be his God, and he will be God's son), then it can't get any clearer than that: Jesus and God are One and the same.
 
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Are you having an enjoyable conversation with yourself tosca1? :)

I'm only kidding, but it is a great way to keep track of your thoughts, isn't it?
 
Are you having an enjoyable conversation with yourself tosca1? :)

I'm only kidding, but it is a great way to keep track of your thoughts, isn't it?


Though it is welcomed......no response is necessary. I'm on a "mission." :)

**** Providing a collection of verses (along with the rationale behind some of them), for other Christians who are also involved in debates in other forums, and/or whose belief is being challenged (they have permission to use my contributions), ........... and helping those who are confused by other teachings.





It is important to believe that God and Jesus are One and the Same.....

.......otherwise, we run into the problem of Jesus - sharing the glory and limelight with God (all glory should be to God alone) - and Him (Jesus), sounding blasphemous and contradictory, and therefore, without credibility!
 
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This has been gone over 1000 of times and the bible is just as correct today as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow.
God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are 1 being. They exist as one and are unified in mind, will, and emotion.

There is no other way for them to exist. Each glorifies one and then the other. it is theorized that this why Lucifer rebelled.

The other issue is this. The bible says there is only 1 God. if they are not the same then you have a polytheisic religion.
it doesn't work out.
 
Exodus 3 (KJV)

3 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.




3:1-6 The angel of the Lord who appeared to Moses is identified as the God of thy father, the God of Abraham.....Isaac....Jacob. This is apparently the continuation of the manifestations of "the angel of the Lord" begun in Genesis 16:7. This one is more than just an angelic messenger from God. Frequently he received the respect, worship and honor reserved only for God; yet He was consistently distinguished from God.
Note the references in Genesis 16:7-11; 21:17; 22:11-18; 24:7; 40; 31:11; 32:24-30; 48:15-16. He carried an identity with God, yet He was also sent from Him!

The patriarchs may not have regarded Him as equivalent to Christophany, but it is sure that He was not the invisible God. And He acted and talked like the Lord.



From The King James Study Bible



Christophany refers to the pre-incarnate appearance of Christ in the Old Testament.
 
Judges 13

2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. 3 The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. 5 You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”

6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’”

8 Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.”

9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, “He’s here! The man who appeared to me the other day!”

11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?”

“I am,” he said.




In answering Manoah’s question the Angel responds with what is almost certain to be a double entendre. Jesus often responded to others with the same double entendre of I am. The Gospel of John is famous for housing several of Jesus’ I am statements. For example, John 8:58:

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”



The Greek for I am is quite different than for I was. The above is not a case of bad grammar but actually speaks to a profound truth.
The Greek behind I am is ego eimi which is used to identify with YHWH or I am who I am (Ex. 3:14). In fact, this revelation of God’s name came out of a similar circumstance when Moses asked the Angel of the LORD for His name (Ex. 3:2, 13-14). Jesus often used I am to identify Himself as YHWH. His audience clearly understood this as their response in this case was to find stones to throw at Him (John 8:59). In using I am the Angel of the LORD claimed to be YHWH in the same way that Christ often did.
The Wonderful Christophany in Judges 13




15 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you.”

16 The angel of the Lord replied, “Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the Lord.” (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the Lord.)

17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”

18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.





The ancient Hebrew language that the Old Testament was written in did not have vowels in its alphabet. In written form, ancient Hebrew was a consonant-only language. In the original Hebrew, God’s name transliterates to YHWH (sometimes written in the older style as YHVH). This is known as the tetragrammaton (meaning “four letters”). Because of the lack of vowels, Bible scholars debate how the tetragrammaton YHWH was pronounced.

Contrary to what some Christians believe (and at least one cult), Jehovah is not the Divine Name revealed to Israel.
The name Jehovah is a product of mixing different words and different alphabets of different languages.

Due to a fear of accidentally taking God’s name in vain (Leviticus 24:16), the Jews basically quit saying it out loud altogether. Instead, when reading Scripture aloud, the Jews substituted the tetragrammaton YHWH with the word Adonai (“Lord”). Even in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament), the translators substituted Kurios (“Lord”) for the Divine Name. Eventually, the vowels from Adonai (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”) found their way in between the consonants of YHWH, thus forming YaHWeH. But this interpolation of vowels does not mean that was how God’s name was originally pronounced. In fact, we aren’t entirely sure if YHWH should have two syllables or three.
https://www.gotquestions.org/YHWH-tetragrammaton.html
 
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Note: In the KJV version:


Judges 13

16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?

18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?





Seeing it is secret? - It was because it was secret that they wished to know it. The angel does not say that it was secret, but פלאי הוא hu peli it is Wonderful; the very character that is given to Jesus Christ, Isaiah 9:6; : His name shall be called, פלא Wonderful; and it is supposed by some that the angel gives this as his name, and consequently that he was our blessed Lord.
https://www.studylight.org/commentary/judges/13-18.html
 
Still on....... "I AM"

Exodus 3

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”

14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”





John 8
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”




The I Am's Of Christ
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/The-I-Am~s-Of-Christ
 
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I've been quoting verses this past couple of days – verses that show Jesus is God Himself, incarnated, to dwell among the people and to save mankind. I thought I'd exhausted everything...... until this morning.


I'm on the Book of Revelation these days, and I just finished reading Chapter 21.
Interestingly...... relevant verses seem to jump out when reading the Scriptures - even when you're not really looking for them.*



This thread will be for Scriptural verses (with explanations if needed, including cross-references with other verses), that clearly show Jesus and God are One and the Same.

Let me start with the verses from where the title of the thread was taken:



Rev 21

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.





5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,
“Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son.





22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.




Who do we know as the Alpha and the Omega? Revelation 22 clearly say it is Jesus.

God HIMSELF will be with them and be their God. Jesus (the Alpha and Omega) says that He will be the God of saved people who'll be in this new kingdom. Therefore, Jesus is God! That's so clearly stated!




13
Revelation 22

I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.






There is apparent importance to believe that Jesus is God incarnate....otherwise, why is it imperative to be written and declared?


Rev 21
And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”


I'm just wondering... have you been born of water and of the Spirit, yet?
 
An example of somebody having a mental breakdown right in front of you and you know there is nothing you can do about it.
 
This rationale had come up in one of the threads, and it is another logical reason why God and Jesus are One and the same.

If God is a loving God, why would He volunteer His own Son to be tortured and crucified just so to save mankind?
Not only that, Jesus felt all the pain just as any human would - he knew that, too. Remember His anxiety at the garden as He await His arrest? His agonized prayer to God?

Wouldn't it be so that just like any loving human parent would willingly suffer and die for their children - that, God Himself, would be the One to suffer and die for us?
 
This rationale had come up in one of the threads, and it is another logical reason why God and Jesus are One and the same.

If God is a loving God, why would He volunteer His own Son to be tortured and crucified just so to save mankind?
Not only that, Jesus felt all the pain just as any human would - he knew that, too. Remember His anxiety at the garden as He await His arrest? His agonized prayer to God?

Wouldn't it be so that just like any loving human parent would willingly suffer and die for their children - that, God Himself, would be the One to suffer and die for us?

Yes it is firmly established that God and Christ exist as one.
there is a ton of scriptural support for it.
 
An example of somebody having a mental breakdown right in front of you and you know there is nothing you can do about it.

Couldn't help yourself, eh bud? Look where you're at and note the rules. She's doing what this space was designed for, you are in the wrong. Boring day on the "We atheists are super smart" sub forum? :lol:

Bye.
 
Jesus is the Son of God, he is not his Father. Argue the point if you wish, but that would require one to believe Jesus was talking to himself on many occasions, including while on the cross. Ridiculous thing thinking prevails in some Christian Sects.
 
Jesus is the Son of God, he is not his Father. Argue the point if you wish, but that would require one to believe Jesus was talking to himself on many occasions, including while on the cross. Ridiculous thing thinking prevails in some Christian Sects.

He was talking as the Son when He talked to the Father.

You better review all the evidences that were given so far......ponder and contemplate on them.
 
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Jesus is the Son of God, he is not his Father. Argue the point if you wish, but that would require one to believe Jesus was talking to himself on many occasions, including while on the cross. Ridiculous thing thinking prevails in some Christian Sects.

You might want to study the Catholic Bible.
 
I just heard this at the sermon by Pastor McBride. At the temple, Jesus made a statement that is monotheistic in nature:


John 2
18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”


Jesus was referring to Himself (this temple) that when He was crucified and buried, He rose again in 3 days.



When Jesus stated "destroy this temple, and I will raise it again...." He's claiming absolute monotheism.



In Deuteronomy 32:39, God Himself has spoken:


“See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.




Why did God say no one can deliver out of His hand?
He would've said ".....except my Son".... if Jesus is not God Himself.
But, God didn't make any exception.

Jesus is God - in the flesh. He has the Authority!
 
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In John 2, God had said:

"No one can deliver out of My hand."



He made a similar statement:


Isaiah 43
12
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.

13
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"



Jesus did! He reversed the curse:

John 11: 25-26
“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”



What was the curse? Flashback to Adam and Eve:

Genesis 2
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.




If no one can deliver........obviously, ONLY GOD Himself can. In the person of Jesus Christ.
 
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Jesus is the Son of God, he is not his Father. Argue the point if you wish, but that would require one to believe Jesus was talking to himself on many occasions, including while on the cross. Ridiculous thing thinking prevails in some Christian Sects.

lol. If He's here as God's Son - then, to us He's God's Son. Wasn't Jesus showing the EXAMPLE of what OBEDIENCE to God,
is supposed to be like? We're God's children, are we not?

That may be one of the most important reasons why God saw it necessary to come to us as His Son!
To give an example what's required from children of God, as far as obedience goes!



Faith/Trust in God goes hand-in-hand with OBEDIENCE! Jesus had drummed that to us!




You don't have anything at all to support that silly idea that Jesus isn't God at all. Do you understand what that implies?

If Jesus isn't God.....then, Jesus had contradicted His statements about all glory is for God alone.
You're only showing that Jesus is not credible at all! He's claiming glory for Himself!
Your position had reduced Jesus to nothing more but like your typical politicians!
That's what your position means......... which is utterly senseless!



let me ask you:

Why do you believe someone who contradicts Himself?
 
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Jesus is the Son of God, he is not his Father. Argue the point if you wish, but that would require one to believe Jesus was talking to himself on many occasions, including while on the cross. Ridiculous thing thinking prevails in some Christian Sects.

If you don't believe Jesus and God are One and the Same - then, you're no different than someone glorifying saints alongside God.
You're putting Jesus up to share the limelight with God.

If Jesus isn't God - then we should be honoring and thanking God Himself for saving us, not Jesus - after all, GOD was the one who
sent a Saviour to us, right? Jesus was just doing his job.
 
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You might want to study the Catholic Bible.

Was born and raised a Catholic, have read the Bible from front to back several times. There the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, meaning a Trinity. You are Welcome.
 
Was born and raised a Catholic, have read the Bible from front to back several times. There the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, meaning a Trinity. You are Welcome.

the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, meaning a Trinity. Is that all? That's it???


Reading won't cut it......if you're not getting what you read.
And by your own admission - obviously you haven't put as much thought into what you've read.
Refer to my rebuttals to you.

It takes studies to understand the Bible.
 
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