Greatest NBA Player

Goldenboy219 said:

Not as simple as you make it out to be.

Under your premise of great players beating great players, you define said greatness by their winning. If the Bulls lost a finals to the Jazz , do you actually believe it would make the case that "Jordan was now playing against great players" and so the Bulls and himself were better?

Sorry, your desire to label the Bulls dominance as a weakness does not fly!

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Bodhisattva said:

Please point out where the Seattle Supersonics, Utah Jazz, Phoenix Suns and Portland Trailblazers are on this list then...

The Top 10 Teams in NBA History
(chronological order)

1964-65 Boston Celtics 62 - 18 (.775)
Led by Bill Russell, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Tom Sanders and Tom Heinsohn...Broke its own league record for most victories in a season and went on to win the Celtics' seventh consecutive NBA championship...Battled the Philadelphia 76ers in an East Finals for the ages, winning Game Seven 110-109; John Havlicek's deflection at game's end produced the legendary "Havlicek stole the ball!" radio call from Celtics broadcaster Johnny Most...Defeated the L.A. Lakers 4-1 in 1965 NBA Finals.

1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers 68 - 13 (.840)
Propelled by Wilt Chamberlain, Hal Greer, Chet Walker and Billy Cunningham, started the season 46-4 and went on to set record for most victories in a season (broken by 1971-72 L.A. Lakers)...Ended Celtics' run of eight consecutive championships by defeating Boston 4-1 in Eastern Division Finals...Defeated the San Francisco Warriors 4-2 in 1967 NBA Finals.

1969-70 New York Knicks 60 - 22 (.732)
Willis Reed, Walt Frazier, Dick Barnett, Dave DeBusschere, Bill Bradley and Cazzie Russell starred for one of the best passing teams in NBA history...Captured New York's first NBA Championship by defeating Los Angeles 4-3 in the memorable 1970 NBA Finals...Captain Willis Reed, who missed Game Six due to a torn leg muscle, hobbled onto the Madison Square Garden floor before Game Seven and scored New York's first two baskets to inspire the Knicks to a 113-99 victory.

1971-72 L.A. Lakers 69 - 13 (.841)
Gail Goodrich, Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Jim McMillian and Happy Hairston combined to bring Lakers their first championship of the Los Angeles era...Broke Philadelphia's 1966-67 record for wins in a season (broken by Chicago in 1995-96), at one point winning 33 consecutive games, a record that still stands...Won NBA record 16 consecutive road games...Best road winning percentage in NBA history (.816; 31-7)...Defeated New York 4-1 in 1972 NBA Finals.

1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers 65 - 17 (.793)
Moses Malone joined the 76ers as a free agent and teamed with Julius Erving, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks and Bobby Jones to bring the 76ers their first title in 16 seasons...Malone proclaimed the 76ers would sweep through the NBA Playoffs in "Fo', Fo', Fo'" and he wasn't far off as Philadelphia cruised in "Fo', Fi', Fo'" to post the best winning percentage in NBA Playoffs history at .923 (12-1).

1985-86 Boston Celtics 67 - 15 (.817)
Stung by a 4-2 loss to the L.A. Lakers in the 1985 NBA Finals, Larry Bird led the Celtics featuring Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge and a rejuvenated Bill Walton to the best record in franchise history and a 4-2 defeat of Houston in the 1986 NBA Finals...Posted 40-1 record at Boston Garden, best home winning percentage (.976) in NBA history...Fifth-best overall winning percentage ever (.817).

1986-87 L.A. Lakers 65 - 17 (.793)
The Lakers recaptured their place atop the NBA thanks to the "Showtime" fast-break style spearheaded by Earvin "Magic" Johnson and teammates Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Byron Scott, A.C. Green and Michael Cooper...Johnson averaged a career-best 23.9 points per game and led the league in assists with a 12.2 average...Lakers defeated Boston 4-2 in the 1987 NBA Finals after winning 11 of their first 12 games in the playoffs.

1988-89 Detroit Pistons 63 - 19 (.768)
Isiah Thomas, Bill Laimbeer, Joe Dumars, Mark Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson and Dennis Rodman combined to form the heart of one of the strongest defensive teams in the modern era...Lacking a dominant center, Pistons featured a potent three-guard rotation and a deep bench that rebounded and defended relentlessly...Pistons were 15-2 in 1989 playoffs, including 4-0 sweep of L.A. Lakers in 1989 NBA Finals.

1991-92 Chicago Bulls 67 - 15 (.817)
Michael Jordan dominated the NBA and received strong support from teammates Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong, Bill Cartwright and John Paxson...Topped previous championship season by winning six more games than in 1990-91, the fifth-winningest season in league history...Defeated the Portland Trail Blazers 4-2 in 1992 NBA Finals.

1995-96 Chicago Bulls 72 - 10 (.878)
Featuring Superman (Michael Jordan), Batman (Scottie Pippen) and Rodman (Dennis Rodman), Bulls shattered record for most wins in a regular season...Won 87 of 100 games, including the playoffs...Ron Harper, Luc Longley, Toni Kukoc and Steve Kerr rounded out core of driven team that featured triangle offense...Started season an amazing 41-3...Jordan's first full season since returning from retirement.

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I see the 80's Lakers, Celtics, Piston and 76ers represented on the list. They fought each other repeatedly. Ali beating Frazier is obviously a bigger deal than Ali beating the ones we can't remember. My argument obviously does fly. Debate the watering down of the league due to expansion or the rules changes that benefited Jordan or how my logic is flawed if you like... as it stands though, my argument is solid.

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Bodhisattva said:

The argument is really about great players beating other great players. Magic and Bird did this, Jordan did not. It is that simple.


1986-87 Los Angeles Lakers vs. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls



SYNOPSIS

This match up is plain and simple: If the Bulls "Big 4" shut down Johnson, Scott, Worthy and Green from the Lakers they can still go inside and get production from Kareem. The same cannot be said for the Bulls if the Laker's quartet hold their own against the Bulls "Big 4". Mychal Thompson is a big X factor for L.A.. Thompson was excited to be the final piece of the Laker's title puzzle as he brought in enthusiasm and intensity off the bench, similar to what Walton did for the Celtics in 1986. Toni Kucoc provides an extra offensive punch which the Bulls are going to need off their bench, but Steve Kerr's effectiveness will be limited when he has Cooper in his face. If Byron Scott feasts off the open 3 pointers he gets when the Bulls double team the low post then the Lakers could turn this into a blowout.

In favor of the Bulls:

Bulls Bio:

- Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 1 (Jordan)
- Players on "50 Greatest" list: 2 (Jordan, Pippen)
- Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 3 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman)

The Bulls have some good options on defense. They can move Scottie Pippen out to the perimeter to slow down Magic Johnson. This leaves Jordan down low trying to stop James Worthy. The Bulls also can bring in the potent scoring of Toni Kucoc off the bench-for whom the Lakers do not have a direct answer.

In favor of the Lakers:

Lakers Bio:

- Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 3 (Abdul-Jabbar, Johnson, Worthy)
- Players on "50 Greatest" list: 3 (Johnson, Abdul-Jabbar, Worthy)
- Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 6 (Abdul-Jabbar, Cooper, Green, Johnson, Scott, Worthy)

Byron Scott becomes a very interesting factor. In 1986-87 Scott fired .436 from the original 3 point range. Scott can get open shots off of Kareem in the low post. Lets not forget the Playoff MVPs Magic Johnson('87) and James Worthy('88)-who BTW was the real star of the 1982 NCAA Champion North Carolina Tar Heels-not Michael Jordan. The Lakers bring in a strong bench with Defensive Player of the year Michael Cooper, center Mychal Thompson, and G/F Billy Thompson.

1985-86 Boston Celtics vs. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls


SYNOPSIS

There is one question here: Can Jordan go off for 55 points per game with Dennis Johnson in his shirt to counter the huge scoring edge the Celtics have in the paint? He has to if the Bulls are going to beat the Celtics. Pippen should be able to match Bird on the scoreboard & bother him on D but Pippen won't stop Bird overall. Bird can get his shot off as well as pass into the post where McHale & Parish can score over Rodman & Longley, plus McHale can hit the open 20 footers that Rodman will give him when he sits under the basket waiting for rebounds. The Bulls also have no match for the energy and fire that Bill Walton brings in off the Celtic bench, especially since Walton, McHale & Parish will have to extend themselves very little in one-on -one low post defense. When the Bulls guards are forced to double team the post Danny Ainge & Dennis Johnson will hit their share of the open shots. Ainge shot .386 from 3 point range in 1985-86. Scott Wedman & Jerry Sichting are a perfect outside shooting counter to the Bulls duo of Toni Kucoc and Steve Kerr off the bench. One final fact that is overlooked: In the 1986 playoff game after Jordan lit the Celtics up for 63 points the Celtics stuffed Dennis Johnson & some prudent double teams down MJ's shirt and held him to 28 points as they routed the Bulls in game 3, eliminating them from the playoffs. People also forget that Jordan poured in 50 in game 1 and the Celtics still won easily by 18 points. The 1996 Bulls are way better than their 1986 counterparts, but they have the same glaring weaknesses. The answer to the question above is NO, Jordan averages 40 to 45 points a game in this match up but the Bulls lose anyway because they get out gunned in the paint.

In Favor of the Bulls:

Bulls Bio:

Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 1 (Jordan)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 2 (Jordan, Pippen)
Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 3 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman)
Players who have made the All-Star team within 3 years of the team's great season: 3 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman)
In Jordan and Pippen the Bulls have a strong speed advantage at shooting guard and small forward. The Celtics only defeats in the 1986 playoffs came at the hands of the Atlanta Hawks (gm 4, East semifinals) & Houston Rockets (gms 3 & 5, NBA Finals), both of those teams possessed big, young and athletic front lines. Jordan & Pippen certainly come close to that type of athleticism but replace the youth with veteran savvy and top notch defensive skills.

In Favor of the Celtics:

Celtics Bio:

Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 3 (Bird, Johnson, Walton)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 4 (Bird, Parish, McHale, Walton)
Players who have made All Star Team during career: 7 (Ainge, Bird, Johnson, McHale, Parish, Walton, Wedman)
Players who have made the All-Star team within 3 years of the team's great season: 5 (Bird, McHale, Parish, Johnson, Ainge)
These Celtics boast quite possibly the greatest front line in NBA History: Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish with Bill Walton and Scott Wedman off the bench give this squad inside scoring firepower, solid interior defense, a great passing game as well as potent outside shooting. Kevin McHale is a serious match up problem for every player he faces, his long arms allow him to shoot over the top of defenders in the post as well as being able to hit the open 20 footers. Walton and Bird are both great passers who will get the ball to either the open man or the mismatch inside. Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge in the backcourt were great at hitting the open shot when the post is double teamed as well as providing solid perimeter defense. The Celtics are solid to strong on all of the weapons needed to defeat the Bulls.


1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers vs. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls

In favor of the Bulls:

Bulls Bio:

Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 1 (Jordan)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 2 (Jordan, Pippen)
Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 3 (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman)
In this match up Dennis Rodman won't get outscored by his man: Marc Iavaroni is a dirty work type of player who will spend most of his time tangling with Rodman for rebounds. If he can't then it will be a free for all with Rodman and Malone battling for rebounds in the paint. Jordan certainly can outgun Andrew Toney in the back court and Ron Harper has a size advantage over Maurice Cheeks.

In favor of the Sixers:

Sixers Bio:

Players who have won Playoff MVP award: 2 (Malone, Erving)
Players on "50 Greatest" list: 2 (Erving, Malone)
Players who have made All Star Team during their career: 5 (Cheeks, Erving, Jones, Malone, Toney)
Moses Malone was a wrecking ball in the 1983 Playoffs. Julius Erving can match the athleticism of Pippen on both ends of the floor. Maurice Cheeks should be able to get the drive & kick out game going with Erving, Toney and Clint Richardson who comes off the bench. Bobby Jones is a defensive stopper who can play either forward spot.

Synopsis

Moses parts the red sea! The Bulls have NO ONE who can slow down or stop Malone in the post or under the boards. Malone dominated Bill Cartwright, Bob Lanier, and Kareem Abdul Jabbar in 1983, he also butchered the three headed center of the Milwaukee Bucks in the 1985 playoffs. The Bulls center position is of the same caliber, if not worse than those Bucks. Moses will overwhelm the Bulls, preventing Rodman from rebounding the Jordan & Pippen missed shots, if Rodman dominates Iavaroni the Sixers can throw the hard working Bobby Jones at him. Jordan will get his points but Pippen will be slowed by Bobby Jones when the Sixers put him at small forward. It is questionable how well Pippen can play offense because he is going to have to stay in Erving's face when he is on defense. Andrew Toney is enough of an outside marksman that he will keep Jordan busy on the defensive end of the floor. Cheeks has a speed advantage he can use on Harper to get into the paint. The Sixers have enough weapons to keep the Bulls from producing the dominance on the perimeter necessary to counter the havoc Moses will wreak in the paint, the Sixers are a better all around team.

1986-87 Lakers vs. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls

1986-87 Lakers vs. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls

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Bodhisattva said:

Top Ten NBA Teams EVER!

1. 1987 Los Angeles Lakers
2. 1986 Boston Celtics
3. 1983 Philadelphia 76ers
4. 1967 Philadelphia 76ers
5. 1984 Boston Celtics
6. 1971 Milwaukee Bucks
7. 1972 Los Angeles Lakers
8. 2002 Los Angeles Lakers
9. 1996 Chicago Bulls
10. 1989 Detroit Pistons

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StillBallin75 said:

Just chiming in with my personal input. Jordan never had a dominant big man playing with him in those championship years. As a perimeter player, it's pretty hard to win without a sidekick like that. Magic had Kareem. Jerry had Wilt, Kobe had Shaq and now Pau.

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Goldenboy219 said:

Obviously not! You are penalizing a team for dominance, and labeling their competition mediocre as a direct result of their dominance.

You are the only person i have come across equates dominance as a sign of weakness.

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Helvidius said:

So you are admitting Jordan had inferior teammates? Magic's teams were stacked compared to Jordan's. Magic had a much better supporting cast. Jordan's three peat and playing accolades came well before rule changes that supposedly favored him. And Wilt can't be ranked higher than Jordan. He won 2 rings, compared to Jordan's 6, and Russell's 11, and Wilt was arguably the WORST foul shooter of all time. Jordan on the other hand....

YouTube - Michael Jordan Swishes Free Throw With Eyes Shut

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Helvidius said:

The 2002 Lakers weren't even the best team in their conference that year. They needed the refs to bail them out with the worst officiated game of all time. That game HAD to have been fixed it was so ridicuolous.

YouTube - Kings vs. Lakers, 2002 WCF Game 6, Part 1 of 3

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Goldenboy219 said:

That's because MJ was the dominant post player! It is the basis of successfully implementing the triple post offense.

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Bodhisattva said:

Dominating is not a sign of weakness, and where you arrive at that conclusion is beyond me.

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Dominating weaker opponents due to a watered down league and Jordan friendly rule changes doesn't make one great.

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Goldenboy219 said:

Hey, your anti-Jordan/Bulls argument.



Your watered down league theory is shaky. The success of the NBA from 1980-1990, increased player salaries, more athletic players, advances in sports science and nutrition, etc.... all should be taken into consideration before making a generic comment about watering down. If you can show that the NBA talent pool was depleted after teams such as the Magic, Heat, Hornets, etc..., by all means.

The defensive rule change occurred following the first retirement. Defenses were becoming far too dominant by the mid-1990's, which combined with MJ's retirement, caused the NBA to lose popularity. Rule changes were necessary to combat the stagnation of the game as a result of the evolution of team defense.


Just means you won because of the reasons that I have outlined. Debate rule changes and watered down league or you don't have much of an argument.

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I don't want to play 10 years and then die of a heart attack when I'm 40.
Pete Maravich

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Henrin said:

This might be mean but..



He died at 40 of a heart attack after 10 years of playing professionally. He knew how he would die. D: Not only was he a great basketball player but he could see the future. Scary.

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justabubba said:

MJ
head and shoulders above any other

as for college player, it's a tie between Pistol Pete and David Thompson

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Bodhisattva said:

I am not sure that I agree that he knew how he would die but he was a great player.

Magic is the best. Head and shoulders the best that ever played. The only thing that slowed him down was HIV.

9 finals in 11 years SMOKES M.J. and his 6 finals in 16 years.

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Bodhisattva said:

I am not sure that I agree that he knew how he would die but he was a great player.

Magic is the best. Head and shoulders the best that ever played. The only thing that slowed him down was HIV.

9 finals in 11 years SMOKES M.J. and his 6 finals in 16 years.

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TurtleDude said:

Bill Walton was the most dominant college player in history

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Μολὼν λαβέ;1060603142 said:

I would tend to agree as he was player of the year two consecutive seasons. This game kind of sums up Bill Walton's career at UCLA. He scored 44 points on 21/22 FG and 13 rebounds in the 1973 national championship game against Memphis St. Notice there was no 3 point line.

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