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Fallout from the Astros scandal

Stealers Wheel

Stealers Wheel

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It's going to be an interesting season. The Astros players are all "I feel really bad. We shouldn't have done that."

However, not a single player has been sanctioned in any way. They still have the WS championship. They still have their rings. And they still have their money (Every Astro player received almost a half million from the league for winning the WS). Not a single tangible consequence has been meted out to those players who took part in the cheating scheme, which included most if not all of the players. A couple of managers got fired, that's all.

Well, the fans and some other teams (Dodgers, Yankees?) aren't happy about it. We can expect some serious fan blowback at every Astro road game. Jeers, expletives, and player harassment will be a constant. Additionally, every time an Astro player gets nailed by a wayward breaking ball, we will wonder "What was that, a sanction?"

This is going to be the consequence of MLB failing to properly police their own and lower the boom on players and teams that fail the integrity aspect of the game.
 
“Integrity” in sports is following real-life, “win at all costs!”
 
Once you get that stigma it is nearly impossible to wipe away. Just look at the Patriots.

American sport fans tend to have two common characteristics: 1. They pull for the underdog. 2. They hate cheaters.
 
This was a total failure by MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred to recognize from the outset that this is as corrosive to MLB as was the steroids scandal.

This was also a failure by MLBPA President Tony Clark, who ignored the feelings of members on 29 other MLB teams to protect the Astro players from any penalties.

This was also a major failure of the PR firms/staff at MLB, MLBPA, Astro's owner Jim Crane, and every Astro player that stood in front of a mic and gave us a few crocodile tears.

Knowing we he knows now about the blow-back from this, I wonder if Manfred will be as easy on the Boston Red Sox.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
It's going to be an interesting season. The Astros players are all "I feel really bad. We shouldn't have done that."

However, not a single player has been sanctioned in any way. They still have the WS championship. They still have their rings. And they still have their money (Every Astro player received almost a half million from the league for winning the WS). Not a single tangible consequence has been meted out to those players who took part in the cheating scheme, which included most if not all of the players. A couple of managers got fired, that's all.

Well, the fans and some other teams (Dodgers, Yankees?) aren't happy about it. We can expect some serious fan blowback at every Astro road game. Jeers, expletives, and player harassment will be a constant. Additionally, every time an Astro player gets nailed by a wayward breaking ball, we will wonder "What was that, a sanction?"

This is going to be the consequence of MLB failing to properly police their own and lower the boom on players and teams that fail the integrity aspect of the game.
Click to expand...

I'm not a big sports fan. That's because I spent most of my youth as a military dependent, and then 10 years on active duty moving around the nation and overseas. So I never "hooked" myself to any sport or sports team.

This "scandal" appears to be about the Astros "stealing signs." As in using film/video to watch opposing teams catchers and other "signs" for plays, then somehow using that knowledge to help score hits and runs.

Explain the problem with this? :unsure13:

I mean as a soldier I certainly wanted all the intel I could get in order to "win." That when I did play sports (football) in high school we also tried to figure out opposing plays by how the team set up their offense.

So as a complete novice, someone explain how what the Astros did was "cheating?"
 
Stealers Wheel said:
It's going to be an interesting season. The Astros players are all "I feel really bad. We shouldn't have done that."

However, not a single player has been sanctioned in any way. They still have the WS championship. They still have their rings. And they still have their money (Every Astro player received almost a half million from the league for winning the WS). Not a single tangible consequence has been meted out to those players who took part in the cheating scheme, which included most if not all of the players. A couple of managers got fired, that's all.

Well, the fans and some other teams (Dodgers, Yankees?) aren't happy about it. We can expect some serious fan blowback at every Astro road game. Jeers, expletives, and player harassment will be a constant. Additionally, every time an Astro player gets nailed by a wayward breaking ball, we will wonder "What was that, a sanction?"

This is going to be the consequence of MLB failing to properly police their own and lower the boom on players and teams that fail the integrity aspect of the game.
Click to expand...

On top of all of that, the consequences that were handed out were the severest consequences in baseball history. The team should be expelled and of its members banned from the league.
 
Captain Adverse said:
I'm not a big sports fan. That's because I spent most of my youth as a military dependent, and then 10 years on active duty moving around the nation and overseas. So I never "hooked" myself to any sport or sports team.

This "scandal" appears to be about the Astros "stealing signs." As in using film/video to watch opposing teams catchers and other "signs" for plays, then somehow using that knowledge to help score hits and runs.

Explain the problem with this? :unsure13:

I mean as a soldier I certainly wanted all the intel I could get in order to "win." That when I did play sports (football) in high school we also tried to figure out opposing plays by how the team set up their offense.

So as a complete novice, someone explain how what the Astros did was "cheating?"
Click to expand...

It's just against the rules. Even war operates according to rules (sometimes). Wikipedia's synopsis is pretty helpful.

Sign stealing*is not inherently against the*baseball rules, and has long been considered part of the game. In 2017,*The New York Times*wrote that sign stealing was "something of an art form in baseball" which "is tolerated, even admired".[5]*Many players and coaches are considered masters at stealing signs.[6]

However,*Major League Baseball*(MLB) has long frowned upon the use of technology to steal signs. In 1961, the*National League*(NL) banned the use of a "mechanical device" to steal signs.[7]*While MLB did not, at the time, specifically ban electronic equipment, it issued a memorandum in 2001 stating that teams cannot use electronic equipment to communicate with each other during games, especially for the purpose of stealing signs.[8]In September 2017, after the*Boston Red Soxwere fined for using a*smartwatch*to try to steal signs,*Commissioner of Baseball*Rob Manfred*issued a memo to all 30 clubs warning that future incidents of electronic sign stealing "will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks".[5]

In 2014, as part of the expansion of*replay review in MLB, all 30 teams were permitted to install video replay rooms in their stadiums with live camera feeds, and the dugout was permitted to communicate with staffers in the room.[9][10]*As MLB realized that teams were potentially using the video replay room for other purposes, including sign stealing, MLB placed league officials in the replay rooms for the first time beginning in the*2018 playoffs.[9]

Prior to the 2019 season, MLB reached an agreement with the*MLB Players Associationto institute new rules restricting the use of live camera feeds by placing a league official in all 30 replay rooms, and allowing only replay officials to watch in real time while others could only watch with an eight-second delay.[11][12]*Tom Verducci*of*Sports Illustratedsaid that the ban would include "all non-broadcast outfield cameras from foul pole to foul pole as well as tightening restrictions on*in-house video".[13]

The Astros finished in first place in the*American League*(AL)*West*division for the 2017 season with a win–loss record of 101-61.[14]*They defeated the Red Sox, three games to one, in the*2017 AL Division Series, including two wins at home at*Minute Maid Park*and one win away at*Fenway Park. They defeated the*New York Yankees*in the*2017 AL Championship Series*in seven games, winning all four home games at Minute Maid Park while losing all three road games at*Yankee Stadium.[15]*In the*World Series, the Astros defeated the*Los Angeles Dodgers*in seven games, going 2–2 at*Dodger Stadiumand 2–1 at Minute Maid Park.[16]*It was their first World Series championship in franchise history.[17]

Houston Astros sign stealing scandal - Wikipedia
 
Diesel said:
It's just against the rules. Even war operates according to rules (sometimes). Wikipedia's synopsis is pretty helpful.

Sign stealing*is not inherently against the*baseball rules, and has long been considered part of the game. In 2017,*The New York Times*wrote that sign stealing was "something of an art form in baseball" which "is tolerated, even admired".[5]*Many players and coaches are considered masters at stealing signs.[6]

However,*Major League Baseball*(MLB) has long frowned upon the use of technology to steal signs. In 1961, the*National League*(NL) banned the use of a "mechanical device" to steal signs.[7]*While MLB did not, at the time, specifically ban electronic equipment, it issued a memorandum in 2001 stating that teams cannot use electronic equipment to communicate with each other during games, especially for the purpose of stealing signs.[8]In September 2017, after the*Boston Red Soxwere fined for using a*smartwatch*to try to steal signs,*Commissioner of Baseball*Rob Manfred*issued a memo to all 30 clubs warning that future incidents of electronic sign stealing "will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks".[5]

In 2014, as part of the expansion of*replay review in MLB, all 30 teams were permitted to install video replay rooms in their stadiums with live camera feeds, and the dugout was permitted to communicate with staffers in the room.[9][10]*As MLB realized that teams were potentially using the video replay room for other purposes, including sign stealing, MLB placed league officials in the replay rooms for the first time beginning in the*2018 playoffs.[9]

Prior to the 2019 season, MLB reached an agreement with the*MLB Players Associationto institute new rules restricting the use of live camera feeds by placing a league official in all 30 replay rooms, and allowing only replay officials to watch in real time while others could only watch with an eight-second delay.[11][12]*Tom Verducci*of*Sports Illustratedsaid that the ban would include "all non-broadcast outfield cameras from foul pole to foul pole as well as tightening restrictions on*in-house video".[13]

The Astros finished in first place in the*American League*(AL)*West*division for the 2017 season with a win–loss record of 101-61.[14]*They defeated the Red Sox, three games to one, in the*2017 AL Division Series, including two wins at home at*Minute Maid Park*and one win away at*Fenway Park. They defeated the*New York Yankees*in the*2017 AL Championship Series*in seven games, winning all four home games at Minute Maid Park while losing all three road games at*Yankee Stadium.[15]*In the*World Series, the Astros defeated the*Los Angeles Dodgers*in seven games, going 2–2 at*Dodger Stadiumand 2–1 at Minute Maid Park.[16]*It was their first World Series championship in franchise history.[17]

Houston Astros sign stealing scandal - Wikipedia
Click to expand...

Ah, I see.

I still think it's pretty silly, as mentioned in the first paragraph I bolded in your citation, it wasn't "inherently" against the rules. It seems to have become so when coaches couldn't just YELL what they saw (allowing opponents to counter), but could somehow transmit the information "electronically" to players.

IMHO the game needs to progress as tech progresses. If the Astros did it, then that's a lesson to competing teams to follow the model, and balance the equation.

But I understand now, rules are rules. Thanks for the explanation. :)
 
Captain Adverse said:
Ah, I see.

I still think it's pretty silly, as mentioned in the first paragraph I bolded in your citation, it wasn't "inherently" against the rules. It seems to have become so when coaches couldn't just YELL what they saw (allowing opponents to counter), but could somehow transmit the information "electronically" to players.

IMHO the game needs to progress as tech progresses. If the Astros did it, then that's a lesson to competing teams to follow the model, and balance the equation.

But I understand now, rules are rules. Thanks for the explanation. :)
Click to expand...

If I'm being honest, I think almost all sports rules are stupid, but they give some people a reason to geek out aside from video games or world history or car engines.
 
Captain Adverse said:
I'm not a big sports fan. That's because I spent most of my youth as a military dependent, and then 10 years on active duty moving around the nation and overseas. So I never "hooked" myself to any sport or sports team.

This "scandal" appears to be about the Astros "stealing signs." As in using film/video to watch opposing teams catchers and other "signs" for plays, then somehow using that knowledge to help score hits and runs.

Explain the problem with this? :unsure13:

I mean as a soldier I certainly wanted all the intel I could get in order to "win." That when I did play sports (football) in high school we also tried to figure out opposing plays by how the team set up their offense.

So as a complete novice, someone explain how what the Astros did was "cheating?"
Click to expand...

Watching film is not the same thing as literally using technology to cheat. Not only had teams explicitly been warned not to do any such thing, but it is well outside the “unwritten rules” of sports. It is one thing to figure out signs because of a pitcher’s tell. That is part of the game. But there is no skill or sportsmanship involved in pointing a camera at the catcher and banging on a trash can.

It might just come down to morality. Some people were raised to have an issue with deceit and poor sportsmanship.....some people clearly haven’t.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Ah, I see.

I still think it's pretty silly, as mentioned in the first paragraph I bolded in your citation, it wasn't "inherently" against the rules. It seems to have become so when coaches couldn't just YELL what they saw (allowing opponents to counter), but could somehow transmit the information "electronically" to players.

IMHO the game needs to progress as tech progresses. If the Astros did it, then that's a lesson to competing teams to follow the model, and balance the equation.

But I understand now, rules are rules. Thanks for the explanation. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, stealing signs is a part of the game, within limits. If the pitcher has a certain "tell" that telegraphs his next pitch, or a runner on second can see the catcher's sign and relays that to the batter, it's one thing. But to secretly install equipment specifically to get an unfair advantage is unethical and wrong. Cameras are not an inherent part of the game.

There is virtually nothing harder in sports than hitting a baseball coming at you at 98 miles an hour. Using technology outside the game to make it easier is cheating, plain and simple. The league, the team, and the players have acknowledged this. And since they have suffered no league consequences as a result, it has sullied the game.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Watching film is not the same thing as literally using technology to cheat. Not only had teams explicitly been warned not to do any such thing, but it is well outside the “unwritten rules” of sports. It is one thing to figure out signs because of a pitcher’s tell. That is part of the game. But there is no skill or sportsmanship involved in pointing a camera at the catcher and banging on a trash can.

It might just come down to morality. Some people were raised to have an issue with deceit and poor sportsmanship.....some people clearly haven’t.
Click to expand...

I had a very similar conversation at work on Friday. Some staff accountant was tinkering with a reconciliation of operating expenses for an office building in Germany. I was like, "I reported a year end assumption that we'd be giving those tenants back about €40,000. How are we charging them €8,000 instead?" She said, "Well, you had a €50,000 roof project in capital. I just pushed it to operating expenses." I said, "It was capital. It's not reimbursable." She said, "If we weren't giving back so much money, I'd leave it where it is, but look at the tenant roster. None of them are sophisticated enough to catch it and technically, their leases allow it anyway." To which I replied, "You're a parent. Would you tell your daughter to get away with whatever she can? Unethical behavior isn't always illegal, but it's still something we don't do." We're using my number again.
 
Diesel said:
On top of all of that, the consequences that were handed out were the severest consequences in baseball history. The team should be expelled and of its members banned from the league.
Click to expand...

That's one point of view. I'm of the opinion the league should take the championship away from the Astros, force the players to return their championship league bonus money (and their rings). And declare in advance that any future behavior similar to this scandal will have severe consequences, including lifetime bans from MLB.

This was not simply one player using PEDs or a corked bat. This was an entire team conspiring to steal a championship. Unacceptable.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
That's one point of view. I'm of the opinion the league should take the championship away from the Astros, force the players to return their championship league bonus money (and their rings). And declare in advance that any future behavior similar to this scandal will have severe consequences, including lifetime bans from MLB.

This was not simply one player using PEDs or a corked bat. This was an entire team conspiring to steal a championship. Unacceptable.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I view it harsher than you do. I'm sticking with kick the team out of the league and ban everyone who was involved.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Ah, I see.

I still think it's pretty silly, as mentioned in the first paragraph I bolded in your citation, it wasn't "inherently" against the rules. It seems to have become so when coaches couldn't just YELL what they saw (allowing opponents to counter), but could somehow transmit the information "electronically" to players.

IMHO the game needs to progress as tech progresses. If the Astros did it, then that's a lesson to competing teams to follow the model, and balance the equation.

But I understand now, rules are rules. Thanks for the explanation. :)
Click to expand...

Then bring out the laser pointers to target the opponents vision.
 
Take away the Astros' rings and vacate the championship.

Do not give it to the Dodgers.
 
jamesbyoung said:
Don't give it to anybody. And make the Astros give back their prize money.
Click to expand...

My Yankees comment was a joke. That's why I put a grinning face at the end of it.
 
I find the concept of “stealing signs” to be a stretch of credibility. Millions of people watching TV can see the sign the catcher is making, yet somehow that information must be kept secret from the opposing team. Get real.
 
RobertU said:
I find the concept of “stealing signs” to be a stretch of credibility. Millions of people watching TV can see the sign the catcher is making, yet somehow that information must be kept secret from the opposing team. Get real.
Click to expand...

And most of those millions can't tell a curve ball from a slider on TV. Signs must be matched up with pitches over time to become valuable.
 
RobertU said:
I find the concept of “stealing signs” to be a stretch of credibility. Millions of people watching TV can see the sign the catcher is making, yet somehow that information must be kept secret from the opposing team. Get real.
Click to expand...

The Astros set up a dedicated camera in their stadium to steal the signs along with a system to relay that information to the batter in real time. Everyone involved has acknowledged it was wrong.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
It's going to be an interesting season. The Astros players are all "I feel really bad. We shouldn't have done that."

However, not a single player has been sanctioned in any way. They still have the WS championship. They still have their rings. And they still have their money (Every Astro player received almost a half million from the league for winning the WS). Not a single tangible consequence has been meted out to those players who took part in the cheating scheme, which included most if not all of the players. A couple of managers got fired, that's all.

Well, the fans and some other teams (Dodgers, Yankees?) aren't happy about it. We can expect some serious fan blowback at every Astro road game. Jeers, expletives, and player harassment will be a constant. Additionally, every time an Astro player gets nailed by a wayward breaking ball, we will wonder "What was that, a sanction?"

This is going to be the consequence of MLB failing to properly police their own and lower the boom on players and teams that fail the integrity aspect of the game.
Click to expand...

I find it funny that "stealing" signs in baseball is a big deal. Hell, you ought to hide the signs. Everyone I know tries to steal signs if they can. It's just part of it. Same with football signals, if you can look across the field and see what the other guy is signaling and tell what it is, so what. Do a better job of concealment.
 
Integrityrespec said:
I find it funny that "stealing" signs in baseball is a big deal. Hell, you ought to hide the signs. Everyone I know tries to steal signs if they can. It's just part of it. Same with football signals, if you can look across the field and see what the other guy is signaling and tell what it is, so what. Do a better job of concealment.
Click to expand...

So you see no problem with a team using technology to get an advantage? Technology that is not part of the game? Would you have any objection to the home team placing hidden microphones in the visitor's locker room or dugout?

And just to the point, EVERYONE involved in this scandal acknowledges it was wrong. Not a single player, manager, coach or league official has come out as you and expressed that this was no big deal. Why do you suppose that is? Is it possible that you know more about this game than any of them?
 
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