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Major League Baseball 2020

That's totally ****ed up.

The MLBPA needs to crack down on this hard and owners need to be held accountable. Stuff like this needs real punishment. Owners need to be at risk of losing their franchise over this kind of thing and players need to be hit with season long suspensions.

Never going to happen.

Why would anyone suspend or ban the best players in their sport?

Supposedly 23 Astro players were at some of these 'meetings'. Can't suspend them all. There would be no team, and bringing up minor league players harms the Astros of course, but it also harms the 1,000's of season ticket holders in Houston, AND the teams the Astros play on the road. Fans would be paying top $ to go see minor league players?

It's a weird situation. They broke the rules, they deserve punishment but because this is so wide spread MLB's hands are tied.

Again, they need to fight technology with technology.. They need to install the NFL QB helmet type radio system with the pitchers, catchers and dugout. No signs would be needed, so no way they could be stolen.
 
Never going to happen.

Why would anyone suspend or ban the best players in their sport?

Supposedly 23 Astro players were at some of these 'meetings'. Can't suspend them all. There would be no team, and bringing up minor league players harms the Astros of course, but it also harms the 1,000's of season ticket holders in Houston, AND the teams the Astros play on the road. Fans would be paying top $ to go see minor league players?

It's a weird situation. They broke the rules, they deserve punishment but because this is so wide spread MLB's hands are tied.

Again, they need to fight technology with technology.. They need to install the NFL QB helmet type radio system with the pitchers, catchers and dugout. No signs would be needed, so no way they could be stolen.

I believe active players are protected by the CBA.
 
I believe active players are protected by the CBA.

Yeah, probably. But from what I am hearing that's kind of a grey area. But honestly I doubt Manfred wanted to tangle with the Union, it was easier to go after the brass. That's probably why Beltran's name was to only 'players' name mentioned in the report. He's not a player anymore, so....................
 
Never going to happen.

Why would anyone suspend or ban the best players in their sport?

Supposedly 23 Astro players were at some of these 'meetings'. Can't suspend them all. There would be no team, and bringing up minor league players harms the Astros of course, but it also harms the 1,000's of season ticket holders in Houston, AND the teams the Astros play on the road. Fans would be paying top $ to go see minor league players?

It's a weird situation. They broke the rules, they deserve punishment but because this is so wide spread MLB's hands are tied.

Again, they need to fight technology with technology.. They need to install the NFL QB helmet type radio system with the pitchers, catchers and dugout. No signs would be needed, so no way they could be stolen.

If they're the "best players in the sport" they shouldn't need to cheat.

Yeah, it would be a nightmare to do everything that should be done to stop it but doing nothing is also problematic. Fines aren't enough. The organization really needs to take a hit since it's an organizational operation and the MLBPA needs to bust some heads.

Put owners on notice. Violation #1 gets you fined, personally, $25M. Violation #2 and your franchise gets sold to somebody else that MLB approves. Players, coaches, managers and other staff get stiff suspensions and stiff fines for violation #1, a season ban for violation #2 and a perman-ban after than. MLBPA needs to allow modification of contracts for any players found to have violated the rule. The team can cancel half the player's salary over the term of the contract if they violate once and can void the contract if there is a second violation.
 
Yeah, probably. But from what I am hearing that's kind of a grey area. But honestly I doubt Manfred wanted to tangle with the Union, it was easier to go after the brass. That's probably why Beltran's name was to only 'players' name mentioned in the report. He's not a player anymore, so....................

He's not a manager either. Who's next? Showalter? Sciosa?
 
If they're the "best players in the sport" they shouldn't need to cheat.

Yeah, it would be a nightmare to do everything that should be done to stop it but doing nothing is also problematic. Fines aren't enough. The organization really needs to take a hit since it's an organizational operation and the MLBPA needs to bust some heads.

Put owners on notice. Violation #1 gets you fined, personally, $25M. Violation #2 and your franchise gets sold to somebody else that MLB approves. Players, coaches, managers and other staff get stiff suspensions and stiff fines for violation #1, a season ban for violation #2 and a perman-ban after than. MLBPA needs to allow modification of contracts for any players found to have violated the rule. The team can cancel half the player's salary over the term of the contract if they violate once and can void the contract if there is a second violation.

That's not the way it works, anybody and everybody is looking for an edge. As I pointed out Howard use to cut Whitey Ford's baseballs for him, and Ford was one of the best pitchers of his time.

As far as the fines go $5 mil is max the Commish can fine any team/owner. I'm 99% sure to change that the OWNERS would have to agree to up the fine amount. Like the Fox guarding the chicken coop kind of thing.
 
Yeah, probably. But from what I am hearing that's kind of a grey area. But honestly I doubt Manfred wanted to tangle with the Union, it was easier to go after the brass. That's probably why Beltran's name was to only 'players' name mentioned in the report. He's not a player anymore, so....................

I’ll be watching the home plate umpires as close as ever to see if they settle a few scores with the cheaters.
 
He's not a manager either. Who's next? Showalter? Sciosa?

Supposedly when they hired Beltran Eduardo Perez was #2 on their list. So he's my pick.

Stupid of the Mets firing Beltran over something that happened 3 years ago, on anther team when he was a player.. But whatever, after listening to everything that went on this week I can't say I'm surprised. I think a reason Manfred only mentioned 1 player(Beltran) in the report was 1) not to piss off the union and 2) hint to the Mets they need to fire Beltran.

3 weeks to pitchers and catchers, so the Mets had to act quickly.
 
Here's something new - MLB rumors: Astros’ Jose Altuve, Alex Bregman wore ‘devices that buzzed’ as part of sign-stealing scandal, report says - nj.com

It's just rumors now but suggests that Altuve and Bregman may have been wearing "buzzers" inside their jerseys as part of the sign stealing thing.

Stealing signs is part of the game and always has been part of the game. You watch the coaches and players in the dugouts to see if you can catch a steal sign and you watch the pitcher and catcher to see if you can get a tip on the pitch or pick off. That's part of the game and I'm not the least bit opposed to it. However, setting up a camera in center field then relaying that information to the dugout and then signalling your batter whet the pitch is going to be, whether by banging a garbage can or by a buzzer in his shirt, is going way, WAY overboard. If you're not playing by the same rules your opponent is because you rigged the system in your favor then you're cheating and if you're cheating then you're detracting from the integrity of the game and, frankly, stealing from your fans.

Saw the Altuve clip allegedly showing the imprint of a wire under the shirt.
That's some wild stuff.
 
Saw the Altuve clip allegedly showing the imprint of a wire under the shirt.
That's some wild stuff.

There's a video that shows a wire? I saw one where he was grabbing his jersey but it didn't really show anything.

I figured Altuve was one heck of a ballplayer. The guy just plays lights out every game but if he was wired and getting signs like that it's all off. That's no longer being a clutch player and if things really went down that way he's more a roach in my eyes. I won't pass judgement unless something solid comes out but there will always be a question mark after this.
 
There's a video that shows a wire? I saw one where he was grabbing his jersey but it didn't really show anything.

I figured Altuve was one heck of a ballplayer. The guy just plays lights out every game but if he was wired and getting signs like that it's all off. That's no longer being a clutch player and if things really went down that way he's more a roach in my eyes. I won't pass judgement unless something solid comes out but there will always be a question mark after this.

Altuve was a consistently impressive player.
Nothing showed a wire but there were some "Look there, that could be (something) under his shirt" things.
Bregman was part of it.
I forget where I saw it.
 
Pretty much confirms what Bobby Valentine said the other day about what the White Sox were doing in the 80's..

Jack McDowell says Tony La Russa had sign-stealing system with White Sox in '80s..

Former Cy Young Award winner Jack McDowell on Friday accused Hall of Fame manager Tony La Russa of having a camera-aided sign-stealing system installed when he was with the Chicago White Sox in the late 1980s.

McDowell, who made his major league debut for the White Sox in 1987 and pitched for 12 seasons in the majors, never played for La Russa, who was fired by the White Sox during the previous season. However, in an appearance on The Mac Attack on WFNZ in Charlotte, McDowell described a system that he said was put in place by La Russa.

"We had a system in the old Comiskey Park in the late 1980s," McDowell, who coaches at Queens University, told the radio station Friday. "The Gatorade sign out in center had a light; there was a toggle switch in the manager's office and [a] camera zoomed in on the catcher.

"I'm gonna whistle-blow this now because I'm getting tired of this crap. There was that -- Tony La Russa is the one who put it in. ... He's still in the game making half a million, you know? No one is going to go after that. It's just, this stuff is getting old where they target certain guys and let other people off the hook."

La Russa currently serves as a senior adviser for the Los Angeles Angels. He won three World Series titles as a manager -- two with the St. Louis Cardinals and one with the Oakland Athletics -- and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2014.

The Angels have not responded to a request for comment from La Russa.

On Monday, MLB commissioner Rob Manfred released the findings of an investigation that found the Houston Astros used technology to cheat during their World Series-winning 2017 season. Since then, three managers -- A.J. Hinch (Astros), Alex Cora (Red Sox) and Carlos Beltran (Mets) -- have lost their jobs in connection to the scandal.

McDowell alleged in the radio interview that the next day's starting pitcher would sit in the manager's office, watch the catcher's signals and would alert White Sox batters with the light in the Gatorade sign.

"I've never said anything about the old system we had because once we got to new Comiskey [in 1991], I didn't know if there was one or not," said McDowell, who won the Cy Young Award in 1993. "There were rumors that we had one, but it wasn't as out there as the first one was where they forced the pitcher who was pitching the next day to go in there and flip on the toggle switch and stuff."

cont...


Jack McDowell says Tony La Russa had sign-stealing system with White Sox in '80s
 
Pretty much confirms what Bobby Valentine said the other day about what the White Sox were doing in the 80's..

Jack McDowell says Tony La Russa had sign-stealing system with White Sox in '80s..

Former Cy Young Award winner Jack McDowell on Friday accused Hall of Fame manager Tony La Russa of having a camera-aided sign-stealing system installed when he was with the Chicago White Sox in the late 1980s.

McDowell, who made his major league debut for the White Sox in 1987 and pitched for 12 seasons in the majors, never played for La Russa, who was fired by the White Sox during the previous season. However, in an appearance on The Mac Attack on WFNZ in Charlotte, McDowell described a system that he said was put in place by La Russa.

"We had a system in the old Comiskey Park in the late 1980s," McDowell, who coaches at Queens University, told the radio station Friday. "The Gatorade sign out in center had a light; there was a toggle switch in the manager's office and [a] camera zoomed in on the catcher.

"I'm gonna whistle-blow this now because I'm getting tired of this crap. There was that -- Tony La Russa is the one who put it in. ... He's still in the game making half a million, you know? No one is going to go after that. It's just, this stuff is getting old where they target certain guys and let other people off the hook."

La Russa currently serves as a senior adviser for the Los Angeles Angels. He won three World Series titles as a manager -- two with the St. Louis Cardinals and one with the Oakland Athletics -- and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2014.

The Angels have not responded to a request for comment from La Russa.

On Monday, MLB commissioner Rob Manfred released the findings of an investigation that found the Houston Astros used technology to cheat during their World Series-winning 2017 season. Since then, three managers -- A.J. Hinch (Astros), Alex Cora (Red Sox) and Carlos Beltran (Mets) -- have lost their jobs in connection to the scandal.

McDowell alleged in the radio interview that the next day's starting pitcher would sit in the manager's office, watch the catcher's signals and would alert White Sox batters with the light in the Gatorade sign.

"I've never said anything about the old system we had because once we got to new Comiskey [in 1991], I didn't know if there was one or not," said McDowell, who won the Cy Young Award in 1993. "There were rumors that we had one, but it wasn't as out there as the first one was where they forced the pitcher who was pitching the next day to go in there and flip on the toggle switch and stuff."

cont...


Jack McDowell says Tony La Russa had sign-stealing system with White Sox in '80s

If you want to go back to historical sign stealing - the first ever sign stealer to use electronics happened back in...

1900.

Check out page 52: http://research.sabr.org/journals/files/SABR-Baseball_Research_Journal-20.pdf

The Phillies had a third base coach that was getting signs from a telescope in CF and relayed to him by an electric buzzer in the ground. The tip was his leg would shake when he got a shock, and eventually they got suspicious and found a box with wires that went to CF.

It’s been going on forever - the Cubs had a guy in the scoreboard in the 40s who relayed signs by crossing and uncrossing his legs, other teams have used a guy sitting in CF who would open a newspaper for a curve,etc.

But those methods are illegal, and should be punished. As someone mentioned - the impacts are serious - you might have had a pitcher who’s only chance in the show was a decent outing against the Astros, and because of the cheating, he never got another chance in MLB. Yu Darvish may have lost millions because of his World Series Game 7 performance.
 
If you want to go back to historical sign stealing - the first ever sign stealer to use electronics happened back in...

1900.

Check out page 52: http://research.sabr.org/journals/files/SABR-Baseball_Research_Journal-20.pdf

The Phillies had a third base coach that was getting signs from a telescope in CF and relayed to him by an electric buzzer in the ground. The tip was his leg would shake when he got a shock, and eventually they got suspicious and found a box with wires that went to CF.

It’s been going on forever - the Cubs had a guy in the scoreboard in the 40s who relayed signs by crossing and uncrossing his legs, other teams have used a guy sitting in CF who would open a newspaper for a curve,etc.

But those methods are illegal, and should be punished. As someone mentioned - the impacts are serious - you might have had a pitcher who’s only chance in the show was a decent outing against the Astros, and because of the cheating, he never got another chance in MLB. Yu Darvish may have lost millions because of his World Series Game 7 performance.

And in 1 of baseballs most famous seasons which lead to maybe the most famous game there's this:

NEW YORK — Stealing signals. Banging on a trash can. Beating the Dodgers in October.

Sounds very familiar to Carl Erskine.

“If they’re going to go back to 2017 with penalties for the Astros,” he said Wednesday, “then I want them to go all the way back to 1951 to help us.”

The old Brooklyn pitcher was laughing. Sort of.

Now 93, Erskine vividly recalled what — until this week — had been the biggest sign-stealing scandal in baseball history.

Up by 13 1/2 games in mid-August, Jackie Robinson and the Dodgers seemed destined. That was until rookie Willie Mays and the New York Giants came flying back, fueled by an incredible, late run in home games at the Polo Grounds, and forced a best-of-three playoff for the National League pennant.

Erskine was warming up in the Brooklyn bullpen in Game 3 when Bobby Thomson connected for the famed “Shot Heard ’Round the World,” a three-run homer in the bottom of the ninth off Ralph Branca that rallied the Giants to a 5-4 win.

A half-century later, a giant secret was revealed: The Giants had rigged a spyglass-and-buzzer system in late July to steal catchers’ signals and tip off their hitters.

“We thought something was going on, we were suspicious, but we couldn’t prove anything,” Erskine said from his home in Anderson, Indiana. “I remember Ralph said to me, ‘I bet those dirty birds are cheating.’”

Herman Franks, a former Dodger who had become a Giants coach, was stationed in the home clubhouse, above the 483-foot mark in center field. From a darkened window, he spied on catchers with a telescope, then relayed the signs.

When a buzzer rang in the New York bullpen — conveniently located in play back then, in deep right-center field — a Giants player who might waggle a white towel would signal to the hitter what kind of pitch was coming.

“A batter wouldn’t even have to move his head,” Erskine said. “It was right over the pitcher’s left shoulder. Just shift your eyes to about 2 o’clock and you’d see it.”

Several years after the scheme came to light, Erskine saw an obituary for Franks.

“I emailed Ralph and said to him: ‘Old Giants never die, they just steal away,’” Erskine said.

cont...

Stolen away: Brooklyn Dodgers pitcher recalls 1951 sign-stealing scam | TribLIVE.com
 
And in 1 of baseballs most famous seasons which lead to maybe the most famous game there's this:

NEW YORK — Stealing signals. Banging on a trash can. Beating the Dodgers in October.

Sounds very familiar to Carl Erskine.

“If they’re going to go back to 2017 with penalties for the Astros,” he said Wednesday, “then I want them to go all the way back to 1951 to help us.”

The old Brooklyn pitcher was laughing. Sort of.

Now 93, Erskine vividly recalled what — until this week — had been the biggest sign-stealing scandal in baseball history.

Up by 13 1/2 games in mid-August, Jackie Robinson and the Dodgers seemed destined. That was until rookie Willie Mays and the New York Giants came flying back, fueled by an incredible, late run in home games at the Polo Grounds, and forced a best-of-three playoff for the National League pennant.

Erskine was warming up in the Brooklyn bullpen in Game 3 when Bobby Thomson connected for the famed “Shot Heard ’Round the World,” a three-run homer in the bottom of the ninth off Ralph Branca that rallied the Giants to a 5-4 win.

A half-century later, a giant secret was revealed: The Giants had rigged a spyglass-and-buzzer system in late July to steal catchers’ signals and tip off their hitters.

“We thought something was going on, we were suspicious, but we couldn’t prove anything,” Erskine said from his home in Anderson, Indiana. “I remember Ralph said to me, ‘I bet those dirty birds are cheating.’”

Herman Franks, a former Dodger who had become a Giants coach, was stationed in the home clubhouse, above the 483-foot mark in center field. From a darkened window, he spied on catchers with a telescope, then relayed the signs.

When a buzzer rang in the New York bullpen — conveniently located in play back then, in deep right-center field — a Giants player who might waggle a white towel would signal to the hitter what kind of pitch was coming.

“A batter wouldn’t even have to move his head,” Erskine said. “It was right over the pitcher’s left shoulder. Just shift your eyes to about 2 o’clock and you’d see it.”

Several years after the scheme came to light, Erskine saw an obituary for Franks.

“I emailed Ralph and said to him: ‘Old Giants never die, they just steal away,’” Erskine said.

cont...

Stolen away: Brooklyn Dodgers pitcher recalls 1951 sign-stealing scam | TribLIVE.com

Serious question: are jocks too dumb to create signs that would send the wrong signal to the batter if stolen? I can see warning a batter based on how the pitcher holds the ball. But, stealing a catcher's sign seems kind of self-defeating, especially if the battery change their code every inning.

"First three pitches, my fingers mean nothing, look at how my glove is angled." That sort of thing would work like a champ, you would think.
 
Serious question: are jocks too dumb to create signs that would send the wrong signal to the batter if stolen? I can see warning a batter based on how the pitcher holds the ball. But, stealing a catcher's sign seems kind of self-defeating, especially if the battery change their code every inning.

"First three pitches, my fingers mean nothing, look at how my glove is angled." That sort of thing would work like a champ, you would think.

I promise this is the last time I bring up Bobby Valentine.. He was on the radio a couple of days ago, and he was great because he was honest as hell. lol

Anyway he managed in Japan, he said sign stealing was so common and prevalent there that they would change signs every couple of days. Sometimes between double headers. TOTALLY change them. In the US, back when he managed? Only about 3-4 times a year. Now obviously they had special signs, etc. when runners were on 2nd base, so they would use them then, but those 'man on 2nd base' signs were the same signs used day after day, week after week. So it was pretty easy to catch on to some teams signs.

More and more it seems many teams, AND now the MLB were just being lazy. 2-3 years ago MLB should have put a NFL QB type radio system in baseball. As the technology got better, and smaller it became much easier to hide, and cheat.

This kind of stuff happening was inevitable.

So either dumb or lazy.. Or both...
 
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I don't know if I'd agree with the assessment that most/every teams are using technology to steal signs. I guess it depends on what you mean by 'technology'. Is watching a TV feed in the clubhouse but not communicating it in real time to a batter cheating? I dunno. But banging on trashcans or buzzing butt plugs seems like cheating to me.

I read somewhere (although I did not independently verify) that Altuve's OPS at Minute Maid Park (where the Astros cheated) was something like double what it was on the road. That is just freaking ridiculous and indicates that MLBs punishments were not enough. The integrity of every game the Astros cheated in is in question.


As time goes on it's going to come out that virtually every team, if not every team was using 'technology' to steal signs. I'm sure this was an open secret throughout the league, no way 1 team is not going to cheat while knowing other teams are cheating. Not much different than the steroid era when everyone did it because they knew everyone else was doing it.

The difference will be that no one cared, or will care if San Diego was stealing signs because they have stunk for years, while they will care about the Astros, Sox, Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs, Mets, etc..etc..etc..

I disagree. I don't think most teams did this.
 
I don't know if I'd agree with the assessment that most/every teams are using technology to steal signs. I guess it depends on what you mean by 'technology'. Is watching a TV feed in the clubhouse but not communicating it in real time to a batter cheating? I dunno. But banging on trashcans or buzzing butt plugs seems like cheating to me.

I read somewhere (although I did not independently verify) that Altuve's OPS at Minute Maid Park (where the Astros cheated) was something like double what it was on the road. That is just freaking ridiculous and indicates that MLBs punishments were not enough. The integrity of every game the Astros cheated in is in question.

But IIRC in the 2017 postseason almost all of the Astros 'splits'(average, OPS, etc) between the road and home games were higher on the road.

So who knows.
 
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I don't know if I'd agree with the assessment that most/every teams are using technology to steal signs. I guess it depends on what you mean by 'technology'. Is watching a TV feed in the clubhouse but not communicating it in real time to a batter cheating? I dunno. But banging on trashcans or buzzing butt plugs seems like cheating to me.

I read somewhere (although I did not independently verify) that Altuve's OPS at Minute Maid Park (where the Astros cheated) was something like double what it was on the road. That is just freaking ridiculous and indicates that MLBs punishments were not enough. The integrity of every game the Astros cheated in is in question.

But IIRC in the 2017 postseason almost all of the Astros 'splits'(average, OPS, etc) between the road and home games were higher on the road.

So who knows.

And yet the Nats got all four of their World Series wins in Houston.
 
And yet the Nats got all four of their World Series wins in Houston.

Yep, and the Astros got their 3 wins in DC..

Probably why 2018 and 2019 aren't being mentioned much with the Astros.. 2018 on the other hand will be a hot topic when the Commish releases the finding on the Red Sox.
 
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