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Will these UCLA boys be punished??

In China, the legal presumption is guilty until proven innocent.

It also has some of the strictest laws on the books.

‘Big Baller’ LiAngelo Ball Could Get Big Prison Time For Shoplifting In China. Shoplifting in China carries a minimum sentence of three years in prison and a maximum sentence of a decade,*according to the Criminal Law of the People’s Republic of China.
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https://newsone.com/3757629/china-shoplifting-laws-liangelo-ball-arrested-punishment/

Aren't you glad we live in a nation where one is innocent until proven guilty?
 
Depends if they can ball..........
 
notquiteright said:
Of course some of this hinges on the defendants ethnicity, economic status, sexual preference, religion, connections, oh and How's Your Daddy... :peace
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All the more reason for the standard of innocent until proven guilty, rather than guilty until proven innocent.

Napoleon said:
A concept created before the advent of video recording — which purportedly shows them stealing.
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A concept that exists despite "video evidence." If there is evidence of guilt, video or otherwise, then the prosecution is free to present it.

Try proving yourself innocent without an air-tight alibi.

Are you two actually arguing AGAINST the legal standard of innocent until proven guilty? :shock:
 
Captain Adverse said:
Are you two actually arguing AGAINST the legal standard of innocent until proven guilty? :shock:
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LMAO, of course not, just pointing out we don't have a truly innocent until proven guilty system. Ask any cop if they can lie to a suspect, or use the tired line of what do you have to hide, or provide an airtight alibi and you can go... or perhaps 10 hour questioning with the 'out' of sign this and you can go home... :peace
 
Captain Adverse said:
All the more reason for the standard of innocent until proven guilty, rather than guilty until proven innocent.



A concept that exists despite "video evidence." If there is evidence of guilt, video or otherwise, then the prosecution is free to present it.

Try proving yourself innocent without an air-tight alibi.

Are you two actually arguing AGAINST the legal standard of innocent until proven guilty? :shock:
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Video footage constitutes that proof.
 
I hope they are punished. Let them sit in a Chinese jail for a week or so before releasing them. They should be kicked from the team, though.

Also, shoplifting seems like an especially stupid crime for them to try and pull off as basketball players tend to stick out in a crowd, literally.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I hope they are punished. Let them sit in a Chinese jail for a week or so before releasing them. They should be kicked from the team, though.

Also, shoplifting seems like an especially stupid crime for them to try and pull off as basketball players tend to stick out in a crowd, literally.
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:confused:

The crime happened in China. Like anywhere else (including the USA) a foreign national is subject to the laws and justice system of the nation being visited.

They are not facing US Justice.

I believe I pointed out that the "minimum sentence" for shoplifting in China is three years in prison, and that they are GUILTY unless proven innocent. (See post # 4 on page 1.)

Our Embassy would have to do some serious negotiations to get a political outcome in their favor...and that will likely affect other U.S. foreign policy concerns thanks to these kids.
 
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Captain Adverse said:
In China, the legal presumption is guilty until proven innocent.

It also has some of the strictest laws on the books.

https://newsone.com/3757629/china-shoplifting-laws-liangelo-ball-arrested-punishment/

Aren't you glad we live in a nation where one is innocent until proven guilty?
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If suspects in this country were truly innocent until proven guilty, there would be no such thing as bail and/or detainment until trial, because if they are innocent, they would automatically be free until proven guilty.
 
No, they won't be 'punished'. But IMO both sides are handling this PERFECTLY!. The team flew home, they left the 3 yahoos in China to worry and wonder what was going to happen to them. The Chinese will play the 'bad cop' for the next few weeks. It will scare these morons. Then UCLA will send someone to pick them up.

Maybe this will smarten them up. Who knows.

Even better maybe this will shut the idiot father up. That might be to much to hope for though.
 
Skeptic Bob said:
I hope they are punished. Let them sit in a Chinese jail for a week or so before releasing them. They should be kicked from the team, though.

Also, shoplifting seems like an especially stupid crime for them to try and pull off as basketball players tend to stick out in a crowd, literally.
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Especially black basketball players in China. In a Vuitton store.
 
Napoleon said:
Video footage constitutes that proof.
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If I may elaborate on my comment to you... I cannot find the Youtube video, it’s older, but I hope I can type an explanation you can visualize.

Cop confronted armed man in alley at night. Perp drops his gun and obeys the cop who tells him to drop to his knees. Vantage point of camera is behind the cop facing the perp. Just have been either cops dashcam or a store camera. Perps hands are in the air. Then he tells the perp to get up as he walks toward him. A cop steps from behind a building behind the perp and his him covered. Perp probably didn’t know that cop was behind him. The cop behind him appears, from the camera angle, to simply shoot the perp in the back with no provocation. It looked like murder.

Fortunately, that cop behind the perp was wearing a body cam. He was carefully watching the guy as he put his arm down behind himself appearing to the cop facing him that he was helping himself up. The perp quickly snatched a gun from his waistband in back and was preparing to aim and fire at the cop in front of him. And THAT is why the cop shot him in the back. Without that behind cops body cam? It looked horrible.

I wish I could find the video, but I can’t. Videos are not always what they seem...
 
The Man said:
If suspects in this country were truly innocent until proven guilty, there would be no such thing as bail and/or detainment until trial, because if they are innocent, they would automatically be free until proven guilty.
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Not true. :no:

Until an allegation that a crime has been committed has been dropped, dismissed, or disproven in court the individual is required to be present to defend himself.

Bail and pre-trial imprisonment are simply methods to insure that the person remains present for the trial.

Most crimes require a reasonable bail be set, including release on one's own recognizance. Higher bails may be set for serious crimes, and the most heinous (murder/kidnapping) can require pre-trial imprisonment if the defendant presents a valid flight risk.

This has nothing to do with proven guilt, and everything to do with seeing justice preserved by trial.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Not true. :no:

Until an allegation that a crime has been committed has been dropped, dismissed, or disproven in court the individual is required to be present to defend himself.

Bail and pre-trial imprisonment are simply methods to insure that the person remains present for the trial.

Most crimes require a reasonable bail be set, including release on one's own recognizance. Higher bails may be set for serious crimes, and the most heinous (murder/kidnapping) can require pre-trial imprisonment if the defendant presents a valid flight risk.

This has nothing to do with proven guilt, and everything to do with seeing justice preserved by trial.
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I’m not arguing against our system in this country, I think it is as good as a justice system can be, but it is not truly an “innocent until proven guilty” system.
 
The Man said:
I’m not arguing against our system in this country, I think it is as good as a justice system can be, but it is not truly an “innocent until proven guilty” system.
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Simply saying it's not does not make it true. :no:

If you don't believe that then feel free to visit any nation where the defendant is guilty until proven innocent, and compare it to our trial system.

The fact is that in our justice system, the burden rests solely on the prosecution to show a person is guilty. The presumption is that a person IS "Innocent" until proven guilty.

Yes the defense has to deal with jurors who (like you allege) assume the person wouldn't be there unless he was guilty.

We have all sorts of people who feel that way in our society, throughout the political spectrum.

It is the job of the Defense team to remind them of the fact that the defendant IS innocent until proven guilty. That it is the law of THIS land, regardless of what you or others may believe. :yes:
 
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Captain Adverse said:
Simply saying it's not does not make it true. :no:

If you don't believe that then feel free to visit any nation where the defendant is guilty until proven innocent, and compare it to our trial system.

The fact is that in our justice system, the burden rests solely on the prosecution to show a person is guilty. The presumption is that a person IS "Innocent" until proven guilty.

Yes the defense has to deal with jurors who (like you allege) assume the person wouldn't be there unless he was guilty.

We have all sorts of people who feel that way in our society, throughout the political spectrum.

It is the job of the Defense team to remind them of the fact that the defendant IS innocent until proven guilty. That it is the law of THIS land, regardless of what you or others may believe. :yes:
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I’m not arguing anything you say, so no need to argue. We still do not have a truly “innocent until proven guilty” system in this country. It might be as close to that as you can feasibly get, but it is not.
 
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