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Kneel for the anthem and get benched

PoS said:
Your original quote states that players must follow league rules, yet there is no rule which states they must stand during the anthem.
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Yes it's a rule in the operations manual. They are league rules.

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trouble13 said:
Yes it's a rule in the operations manual. They are league rules.
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You haven't addressed the difference between Should and May with Will and Must.

Words mean things.
 
beefheart said:
You haven't addressed the difference between Should and May with Will and Must.

Words mean things.
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I did address it. I said it's a discretionary rule. If the nfl wants to enforce it they can.

I would say that since no team until recently has told the players that they must stand for the anthem that they are immune to punishment for not standing prior to them being told they must. Once they are told they must, if they refuse, they violated the rule. There's nothing the players union is gonna be able to do about this.

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trouble13 said:
I did address it. I said it's a discretionary rule. If the nfl wants to enforce it they can.

I would say that since no team until recently has told the players that they must stand for the anthem that they are immune to punishment for not standing prior to them being told they must. Once they are told they must, if they refuse, they violated the rule. There's nothing the players union is gonna be able to do about this.

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No, you didn't.

Should and May mean nothing.

You should know this.

Must and Will don't occur in this document.
 
beefheart said:
No, you didn't.

Should and May mean nothing.

You should know this.

Must and Will don't occur in this document.
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Ok dude you win, but when the owners tell the p,ayers they have to stand, if they dont, they will be punished per the operations manual. If you don't wanna believe that than dont. I've explained it as best I can am I'm ready to call it a night.

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HowardBThiname said:
I expect to see most teams go this way sooner rather than later. The handwriting is on the wall. Spectators just don't like the disrespect and they're paying customers.

It'd be nice to see some other form of protest take the place of this disrespect and then everyone could be happy.
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I don't see why the players don't just sit out the anthem in the clubhouse like they did up until 2009. This issue is messing with the whole point of the anthem anyway. People just want to watch football, not see Nationalist propaganda where the people are forced to participate or else. I'de expect that in N. Korea not here. It's distracting and has no place in the NFL.
 
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iguanaman said:
I don't see why they all don't just sit out the anthem in the clubhouse like they did up until 2009. This issue is messing with the whole point of the anthem anyway. People just want to watch football, not see Nationalist propaganda.
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Ya Know that would not be a terrible idea.....explicitly saying that this is sports not politics and no hoisting your nations flag is not politics except to the insane, of which we have too many. Then the owners and the players join up for community outreach, a bringing together and a sponsoring of conversations between some of these people who rarely talk to each other and nearly never hear each other..... go to all communities equally with open arms, under the banner:

"ALL VOICES MUST BE HEARD"

I am not saying that it will happen natch.
 
iguanaman said:
I don't see why the players don't just sit out the anthem in the clubhouse like they did up until 2009. This issue is messing with the whole point of the anthem anyway. People just want to watch football, not see Nationalist propaganda where the people are forced to participate or else. I'de expect that in N. Korea not here. It's distracting and has no place in the NFL.
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In NK, the govt. would mandate participation, which, of course, would be wrong.

But, in the US, the mandate is coming (starting to come) from the team owners, themselves, and reflects a behavior expected of an employee. Big difference.

American citizens don't like the kneeling -- it's disrespectful, and, gawd knows, we already have enough disrespect in this nation. If the team owners are moving to restrict this behavior from their employees, how is that wrong?
 
trouble13 said:
Yes it's a rule in the operations manual. They are league rules.

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No theyre not. You havent given any proof of it. At all.

HowardBThiname said:
American citizens don't like the kneeling --
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I dont care if people kneel or stand or sit during the anthem. There's more important things to worry about in life.
 
NFL players contracts are not guaranteed. They can be cut on a moments notice.

This is not a free speech issue. The NFL owners positions are no different than those taken by the government. Military and Civilian employees are free to engage in politics...out of uniform and on our own time. The second one engages in politics while representing the government they are subjet to penalty, fine, and immediate termination. Jerry Jones as an employer has that right as well. While in unifrom as a Cowboy you dont represent yourself...you represent the Cowboy organization.

Perhaps there are other factors driving the NFLS recent decision to change their position.

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iguanaman said:
I don't see why the players don't just sit out the anthem in the clubhouse like they did up until 2009. This issue is messing with the whole point of the anthem anyway. People just want to watch football, not see Nationalist propaganda where the people are forced to participate or else. I'de expect that in N. Korea not here. It's distracting and has no place in the NFL.
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Why do libs keep spreading this falsehood? This was only for prime time games. Players have been on the field, and standing for the anthem since after WWII.

A short history of the national anthem, protests and the NFL | PolitiFact

One aspect of this history that has spawned some confusion in recent days concerns a change made in 2009.

Until that year, players in primetime games would remain inside their locker rooms while the anthem was sung, due to timing concerns for the television networks. After 2009, the players in primetime games have been on the field during the anthem, McCarthy said.

But this change only affected primetime games. For all other games -- typically held at 1 p.m. or 4 p.m. Eastern -- players had already been stationed on the field for the national anthem. So the 2009 change simply applied to primetime games the rules that had already been in place for daytime games.
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HowardBThiname said:
I expect to see most teams go this way sooner rather than later. The handwriting is on the wall. Spectators just don't like the disrespect and they're paying customers.

It'd be nice to see some other form of protest take the place of this disrespect and then everyone could be happy.
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Yes, we need some government statutes to govern how citizens may protest. The NFL will soon formulate its own rules, here in the land of the free and home of the subjects.
 
PoS said:
No theyre not. You havent given any proof of it. At all.


I dont care if people kneel or stand or sit during the anthem. There's more important things to worry about in life.
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Well I suggest the players sue the nfl when they tell them if they do not stand they will be fined or suspended. The snowflakes can ask a judge for his protection and see where that gets them.

Nobody asked you to care about what the players do. Don't tell the rest of us what to care about either. We ain't watching football until they begin standing. It's not up for debate.

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Thoreau72 said:
Yes, we need some government statutes to govern how citizens may protest. The NFL will soon formulate its own rules, here in the land of the free and home of the subjects.
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Government statutes will have nothing to do with it -- NFL rules will.

NFL equals "boss man."
Players equal "workers."

Remaining standing will be mandatory "company policy."

Your use of the term, "subjects" is incorrect. The players are free to quit their jobs and push brooms somewhere if they so choose. They may also disobey and get benched for the game and not asked to play the following year.

It's all about making smart decisions.
 
PoS said:
Your original quote states that players must follow league rules, yet there is no rule which states they must stand during the anthem.
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Maybe not league rules, but they are violating US Code, and while there is no criminal penalty for violating the Code, the fact that the Code exists serves as an impetus for NFL owners and coaches to insist on players following it.

301. National anthem

(a) Designation.-The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b) Conduct During Playing.-During a rendition of the national anthem-

(1) when the flag is displayed-

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
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[USC02] 36 USC 301: National anthem
 
HowardBThiname said:
In NK, the govt. would mandate participation, which, of course, would be wrong.

But, in the US, the mandate is coming (starting to come) from the team owners, themselves, and reflects a behavior expected of an employee. Big difference.

American citizens don't like the kneeling -- it's disrespectful, and, gawd knows, we already have enough disrespect in this nation. If the team owners are moving to restrict this behavior from their employees, how is that wrong?
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Is Trump part of our Govt. or not? Sadly I think he is and it is HIS mandate that is demanding participation. So that is not wrong?
 
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iguanaman said:
Is Trump part of our Govt. or not? Sadly I think he is and it is HIS mandate that is demanding participation. So that is not wrong?
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If Trump actually mandated respect, it would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He's making suggestions, and the American citizens are agreeing via surveys and polls.

The mandate will come from the NFL, who has every right to make rules as they see fit.
 
HowardBThiname said:
If Trump actually mandated respect, it would be wrong. But he's not doing that. He's making suggestions, and the American citizens are agreeing via surveys and polls.

The mandate will come from the NFL, who has every right to make rules as they see fit.
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But not when it its under pressure from the Govt. to make those rules. You seem to forget that fact and that is disconcerting. It is irrelevant what the people think when concerning rights guaranteed by the Constitution too.
Trump said this today...
"It's frankly disgusting the press is able to write whatever it wants to write". What is your take on that statement? Is the 1st amendment "disgusting"?
 
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iguanaman said:
But not when it its under pressure from the Govt. You seem to forget that fact and that is disconcerting. Trump said this today...
"It's frankly disgusting the press is able to write whatever it wants to write". What is your take on that statement? Is the 1st amendment "disgusting"?
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It is disgusting that many media outlets tell tall tales. But that disgust comes from just being partners in a decent society.

The 1st Amendment is valuable, even though we have some (like NBC) abusing the right.

Not only is the publication of lies disgusting, it's yellow journalism.

The regulations, however, have to come from the outlets, themselves, not from government.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Government statutes will have nothing to do with it -- NFL rules will.

NFL equals "boss man."
Players equal "workers."

Remaining standing will be mandatory "company policy."

Your use of the term, "subjects" is incorrect. The players are free to quit their jobs and push brooms somewhere if they so choose. They may also disobey and get benched for the game and not asked to play the following year.

It's all about making smart decisions.
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Yes boss man, whatever you say!! :cool:

As for the First Amendment, as you know it is expendable, and it does not apply to employees, just like the rest of the bill of rights including the second amendment.
 
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