GOAT Candidate criteria

Bodhisattva said:

It is really hard to compare because of changes...

The 60's had Ten Teams... no depth...

Back in the 80's traveling was called, 2 steps ONLY for those too young to remember... carrying over was illegal... moving screens were outlawed... pivot foot meant one foot could pivot... there were no flagrant fouls... teams hammered each other... teams fought...

The 90's started and the Jordan Rules came into effect... traveling became three steps... carrying over was allowed more... screens started moving... pivot foot really didn't mean one foot planted as players started sliding their foot... flagrant fouls came into affect... teams stopped hammering each other although the Knicks were still dirty... teams fought but not as hard out...

The Shaq Era started and hammering was only allowed against Shaquille O'Neil... the rest was about the same as the 90's...

The New Era of LeBron is the Now... traveling is a league wide epidemic... 4 steps are sometimes allowed... carry over is common place... screens move all over the place with guys literally running along with the guy they are supposed to screen often two hand pushing a guy out of a shooters way or to the bucket... pivot foot? What the hell is that... they pick up and switch feet even... flagrant fouls are called for sissy stuff... teams don't fight... nobody fights in fact...

Saying LeBron is the greatest is a joke... LeBron would be hammered... no lay-up rule. Traveling and carry over, every point guard... every player... without the benefit of moving screens he is not getting down the lane nearly as easily... Mahorn and Oakley would batter the hell out of LeBron. Don't even get me on KD and how badly he would be treated.

GOAT? The depth of the league is a joke now days... the 80's Lakers and Celtics... the 90's Bulls... the 2000-2002 Lakers... all would dominate today's teams. The East? OMG what a joke. The West is barely tougher...

GOAT candidates in order

Magic
Jordan
Shaq
Kobe
Russel
Bird
Hakeem
LeBron

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Higgins86 said:

I don't know of any country that compares athletes from different eras more than the US. Doesn't happen as much in soccer for example. Our legends are legends and that's how it is.

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calamity said:

I can't put Pippen shutting Magic down out of my mind. As soon as Phil switched Scottie on to Johnson and moved Jordan off of him, Bulls swept. That's not GOAT.

Jordan scored in the 30's even when Detroit was mugging him and Rodman was committing what darn near were felonies.

Lebron gets his points, but he takes too many plays off, and hides on D. Not a GOAT>

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calamity said:

Pele. GOAT.

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calamity said:

Pele. GOAT.

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Higgins86 said:

I mean physically he has nothing on Lebron. If Lebron had played footy he would of won 4 world cups by now

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Bodhisattva said:

When Jordan was getting mugged they were not winning either... Magic was shut down for a series, and we cannot discount HIV in that instance either. Nobody could stop Shaq. He was unstoppable. ...and Magic won... in the 80's... against other GOAT Teams. 4 of the Top Ten are in the 80's. He beat them all. Jordan didn't beat any.

Is Jordan the best player in terms of being a player? Probably... but there is more to GOAT than individual play.

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calamity said:

Shaq couldn't hit a free throw to save his life and was a liability late in the game. He was also useless in transition. Plus he and the Magic got swept by MJ's Bulls while still in his prime, and lost in the finals to the Pistons with Kobe and the Lakers, right around the rape year.

Johnson is right there with Bron and MJ. But, Bron's 8 final appearances is impossible to ignore, as are Michael's 6 rings. LeBron can still out GOAT MJ, but only if he pulls this series back, wins the next two and takes it to 7

MJ lost to Detroit, but in 7. He always held home court against them. Bulls had issues back then. Collins was a terrible coach. Pippen failed to come through in the clutch. Grant was still learning to game. It was Michael against the Bad Boys, and he almost won...twice.

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Bodhisattva said:

Paul Pierce, Scottie and Vince were talking about how the game is changed... as I stated in the OP, making it impossible to compare.

That said... Shaq couldn't hit a free throw but still won. Nobody could stop him. Nobody... not even when facing a 3 on 1 defense. And that Magic team was Shaq and Penny... and Shaw and Horace, but that is it.

Magic Johnson faced and beat the Bad Boys. Jordan did too... This Cavs teams or the Heat with all the sissy rules now would not. LeBron needs to win 8 or more Championships to be close to GOAT. Jordan's 6 are about equal to Magic's 5 but then again Jordan had to ***** out and leave for two years giving him rest and a new focus... Magic just won. Over and over.

Magic 9 Finals in 12 Years. 75%
Jordan 6 Finals in 16 Years. 37%

:lol:

And Magic did that against 3 of the other Top Ten Greatest Teams of All Time.

Jordan didn't face anything like that... except when he was younger and LOST.

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calamity said:

If there were great teams when Magic played, his teams were not that great. Great teams stop other teams from being great. Witness the Warriors, especially this year, assuming they win. They will have stopped LBJ from winning three straight titles---and they certainly will be ending his quest for a repeat if they win-out this year.

Houston won two titles when Jordan took a break. A potential great team that was prevented from being great until then by other potential great teams in the West, teams that could have been great but Jordan crushed them in the finals--Portland and Phoenix specifically. And, then he did it to Seattle in the first full year he was back.

Had Magic's Lakers stopped Detroit and Boston during each of those 9 trips to the finals....then, I'd agree with you. But they didn't. They allowed them to be great too. :roll:

The Lakers with Magic and Kareem lost to Moses Malone and Dr J too, allowing another team to be great...if only for a year.

Your argument is hollow.

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Bodhisattva said:

Your argument is that because there were more great players back in the day Magic beating them most of the time instead of all of the time means he is not great? Are you kidding me? You have it backwards... Great teams win against all teams including other great teams. You are saying because Arnold didn't beat Jack all the time Arnold wasn't great... he "allowed" Jack to become great? Noooo... Arnold was great. Jack was great. Magic was great. Moses was great. Jordan was great. Bird was great.

Who was not great and not because Jordan beat them? Seattle. Even if they won NOBODY would confuse them with a Great team. Same goes with Phoenix. Kinda the same with Portland. Really good... but not Great.. Not by a long shot.

Now Houston could be considered Great because they got to the Finals twice winning both. If they had beaten a Jordan team I would say they were certainly a great team but as it is they are like Utah... really really good. Not great.

Look, it is not just me... NBA.com says it too... 4 of the Top Ten Greatest Teams Ever were the Lakers, Celtics, 6ers and Pistons.... and the 90's Bulls.

Where is Portland, Houston, Phoenix and Seattle? Where is Utah? They are not on because they either made it to one or two Finals and lost them or never beat a team considered Great. Like Pistons, Celtics, Lakers and 76ers did. That is actually a big reason why Jordan is not clear cut GOAT. He beat one Laker team but lost to the Celtics and Pistons until those teams were in decline... he then beat a few one or two times.

Pistons made 3 Finals
76ers made 4 Finals
Celtics made 5 Finals
Bulls made 6 Finals
Lakers made 9 Finals

They all won at least one.

Seattle made 1 Final
Phoenix made 1 Final
Utah made 2 Finals
Portland made 2 Finals

They all lost them

Houston made 2 Finals

But didn't beat a quality team. Not even a really really good one... just a good one.

My argument is quite sound.

Now, you factor in the different Eras and it makes it even more concrete.

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calamity said:

There were not more great players back in the day. That's silly. Talent has gone up, as has coaching. Today's fitness, athleticism, size, stregnth, jumping ability, wingspan, analytics, etc. all of it is a freaking half century of chemistry, bio metrics and computers removed from the days of short shorts. Hell, the Euro players alone have increased the NBA talent pool by 30% at least. And then there are the Africans...

There were no players like Giannis Antetokounmpo in the ****ing 80's. Wtf are you talking about, better players back in Magic's day? You're just being a homer.

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Bodhisattva said:

Better Great Players... Back then we had:

Bird
Magic
Dr. J.
Moses
Barkley
Jordan
Isiah
Worthy
Drexler
Aguirre
B. King
Parrish
McHale
Kareem
Hakeem
The Ice Man
English
Dominique


NOW??

LeBron
Curry
K.D.
Westbrook
Hardin
Kawhi?
Kyrie?
C.P.3.
Dwayne Wade
Nowitzki
P. Gasol

the list isn't even comparable... and I left off a bunch from the 80's too.

Antetokounmpo? When he wins we can talk about him... and there are players in every generation that come out and are freaks. Jordan. Shaq... hell, even Magic. 6'9" Point Guard with made passing skills? People were stunned. Even Kyrie and Kawhi are young and need a career. They will end up as a Great, I am sure but they are not there yet.

My point was Top players WINNING. Not just skill. Obviously the average player today has good skills and conditioning. That isn't saying anything because as the average player stays average it takes the great players to rise above them keeping them average. Where are all the Great Players today? There are a few...

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calamity said:

Bodi, we are in an era where Boogie Cousins and Anthony Davis on the same team barely make the payoffs, a time where a guy as phenomenal as Westbrook can only lead his squad to a 6th seed, and then gets bounced out of the first round in 4-straight. It's a time when James Harden is only a notch or two above average, regardless how great his regular season stats turned out to be this year.

Guys from the 80's like Lambier, Alex English, McHale, Rambis, maybe even Dennis Johnson would all be coming off the bench. Joe Dumars would never be open. And, Larry Bird would hardly be able to guard 80% of the other small forwards in the league, and the power guys would roll over him like he wasn't even there. Kevin Love could probably post him up and burn him for 40. Sheesh.

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calamity said:

Bull ****. See post 15.

THere were no freaks like Durant and Lebron back then...or ****ing Giannis. My god. 7 footers who run like someone 6-3. Or a middle linebacker who cuts into the paint like Jordan, which was Lebron in his 20's.

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Bodhisattva said:

Larry Bird and McHale would have mugged Love into a cowering mess... and then won.

Just like you say Bird couldn't make it today because of conditioning and all that you have to take away youth leagues, conditioning, watching youtube's of great players and copying them, better nutrition, etc and take today's guy BACK THEN. It is not like all of a sudden, for no reason, people are suddenly bigger and stronger and faster. Take Curry back then and he is Isiah. Take LeBron back then and he is just another thug. Take Duncan back then and Russel eats him alive. Can't have it with just your version of a time machine...

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Bodhisattva said:

No, you bull****... see post 18.

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calamity said:

Your thesis summed up: Lakers and Magic J were the greatest because there were other great teams which they beat.

My thesis: If Lakers were the greatest, there would not have been any other great teams because the Lakers would have consistently beaten them and kept them from being great.

My thesis makes more sense.

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calamity said:

You're the one who said players back then were better than today. I call bull**** on that. That's almost as ridiculous as saying cars were better when Al Unser and Mario were driving. Complete nonsense. Today's athletes are finely tuned machines, probably HGH enhanced machines at that. They are faster, stronger and far more---just watch clips from the 80's. That slow ball **** will put you to sleep.

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In another thirty years, b-ball will zip along so fast it will look like ****ing hockey.

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Bodhisattva said:

My thesis is correct. There is never just one Great Player. Look at any sport. Brady/Manning/Rogers/Brees/etc. Emmitt and Barry and more. Jerry Rice and Cris Carter and more... Lance Armstrong and the guy that got second most of the time. All the NASCAR drivers. Arnold and Fuzzy and Jack and The Shark. McEnroe and Connors and Ivan and Boris. Chrissy and Martina. On and On and On and on on on on on on aondoa fgdand and on.




I never said that they were better when compared flat out to today's players... there were more Great Players then than now. Great Players back then would be Great Players today and vice versa. The rest of my post? It is like you didn't even read it.



Obviously you don't remember Magic's passes...

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calamity said:

I still chuckle at this idea that there are no great teams today, but the 80's..."great teams everywhere." Such bull****.

San Antonio during the past 10 years: great team. Now, were they the greatest team? Hardly. Heat beat them, another great team. For a stretch, Boston with Garnett was a great team. Greatest team? No. Heat beat them when LeBron and Bosh joined them. How about the Warriors? Great, but until Durant showed up, not the greatest. Cavs beat them. Cavs? They're good, but unless they play a perfect game and Durant somehow goes cold, they'll probably be swept.

There was a greatest team. But it goes back to before time began...at least before my time: Bill Russell's Boston Celtics.

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