• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Best baseball player of all time? [W:74]

SenorXm/Sirius said:
I'm in my 60's. so again going by who I saw,When he was healthy. I go with Griffey. I remember seeing Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, but they were both at the ends of their careers when I saw them.

Greatest pitching for a single year? Pedro Martinez, 1999 Red Sox. Dwight Gooden, 1985 Mets. Steve Carlton, 1972 Phillies.(he won almost 1/2 the games the Phillies won for that year).. Ron Guidry, 1978 Yankees.. And there's more.

But I think what Carlton did in 1972 is the best I ever personally seen. 27 wins on a team that won 59 games total. Amazing.
Click to expand...

Koufax imo had the greatest season however I give credit to Pedro and Roger Clemens. They were dominate in a hitter's ballpark. Clemens best season was in Toronto, another hitters ballpark. Too bad he did in a place where nobody watched him.
 
Bucky said:
I have seen Ken Griffey in person as well and he was great. From a untrained eye it appears he was hot-dogging it but in reality he just made it look really effortless.
Click to expand...


Great player, but a pretty much an egotistical brooding asshole
 
NIMBY said:
As Vin Scully said in this his retirement year, "The Say Hey Kid" .
Click to expand...

That is saying something coming from the man who bleeds Dodger Blue. We agree here.
 
Bucky said:
Koufax imo had the greatest season however I give credit to Pedro and Roger Clemens. They were dominate in a hitter's ballpark. Clemens best season was in Toronto, another hitters ballpark. Too bad he did in a place where nobody watched him.
Click to expand...

I am talking about greatest seasons I saw. I really don't remember Koufax.
 
Top Cat said:
That is saying something coming from the man who bleeds Dodger Blue. We agree here.
Click to expand...

I first saw a-MAYS-ing in 1961 when my Father got stationed at Travis USAF base and I was 7-yo.
So many great players in that decade.
The only other position player that struck me as the best was Roberto Clemente.
What an All-Star outfield with Aaron/Mays/Clemente.

Good one-year cases have been made for Koufax and Carlton--and I would add Gibson.
Gibson didn't wear his glasses when he pitched. :lamo

Warren Spahn's another one.
Dad loved the Braves because they started in Boston and he was from Maine.

We got stationed at Scott USAF base near St. Louis and I got to see Stan the Man for one year .
 
JC Callender said:
I got this idea just now from posting on 11Bravo's "Best Wide Receiver..." thread. I say Babe Ruth as he not only had ridiculous hitting stats, esp. compared to other players at the time, but also probably could've been a HOF pitcher.

View attachment 67210987
Click to expand...

Its Ruth, and its not even close.

Career Leaders &amp Records for Wins Above Replacement | Baseball-Reference.com

That doesnt even count the fact that he literally changed the way the game was played - making it go from a dead ball game to the live ball era.

He had two seasons where he hit more HR than ANY other team in the league - 1920 and 1927. If thats not dominant, I dont know what is.
 
Ten reasons Willie Mays is greatest ever - SweetSpot- ESPN

One of my faves...
6. Because he hit the best pitchers of his era.

Over 10 percent of Mays’ career plate appearances came against Hall of Famers. And these weren’t chump Hall of Famers: Spahn, Drysdale, Roberts, Koufax, Gibson, Bunning, Carlton, Jenkins, Sutton and Niekro (and, to a lesser extent, Seaver, Marichal, Wilhelm and Ryan). Against those pitchers he hit .286 with a .498 slugging percentage. He had a .978 OPS against Drysdale, .962 against Koufax and .955 against Spahn. (Gibson did own him, however.)
 
Top Cat said:
Ten reasons Willie Mays is greatest ever - SweetSpot- ESPN

One of my faves...
6. Because he hit the best pitchers of his era.

Over 10 percent of Mays’ career plate appearances came against Hall of Famers. And these weren’t chump Hall of Famers: Spahn, Drysdale, Roberts, Koufax, Gibson, Bunning, Carlton, Jenkins, Sutton and Niekro (and, to a lesser extent, Seaver, Marichal, Wilhelm and Ryan). Against those pitchers he hit .286 with a .498 slugging percentage. He had a .978 OPS against Drysdale, .962 against Koufax and .955 against Spahn. (Gibson did own him, however.)
Click to expand...

I definitely respect your opinion however Bonds was a better player than Mays.

Walks
Barry Bonds – 2,558
Willie Mays – 1,464

OPS
Barry Bonds – 1.051
Willie Mays – .941

Pitchers threw to Mays. Pitchers were so scared they simply walked Bonds.
 
Bucky said:
I definitely respect your opinion however Bonds was a better player than Mays.

Walks
Barry Bonds – 2,558
Willie Mays – 1,464

OPS
Barry Bonds – 1.051
Willie Mays – .941

Pitchers threw to Mays. Pitchers were so scared they simply walked Bonds.
Click to expand...


From the article I posted... And let's try to also remember, Mays faced far less diluted pitching and they pitched from a higher mound.

7.Because I don’t want to hear about Barry Bonds.

Bonds through age 35: 116.1 WAR

Mays through age 35: 127.0 WAR

And then came 2001. Look, Bonds has a strong case as the greatest ever. But he has one gigantic argument against him ... and it’s not necessarily PEDs. He played left field and played it beautifully. Willie played center and played it beautifully. Bonds took away doubles. Mays took away triples.

(By the way, this excludes Ted Williams from the discussion, because Bonds was better than Williams. And by that, I mean he was better even before his 2001 explosion.)
Click to expand...
 
Pre- and Post- WWII/Jackie Robinson seem to me to be the dividing point in eras last century up to the steroid era.

The short porches in the AL certainly enabled the left-handed league from Ruth/Gehrig up to Mantle/Maris.

Not a Judge K. Landis fan.
I'll always believe the Black Sox were broken up on purpose.
And in conjunction with the Ruth trade, the Yankees and the American Pastime were born.
And Shoeless Joe was collateral damage .

Threegoofs said:
Its Ruth, and its not even close.

Career Leaders & Records for Wins Above Replacement | Baseball-Reference.com

That doesnt even count the fact that he literally changed the way the game was played - making it go from a dead ball game to the live ball era.

He had two seasons where he hit more HR than ANY other team in the league - 1920 and 1927. If thats not dominant, I dont know what is.
Click to expand...
 
Top Cat said:
From the article I posted... And let's try to also remember, Mays faced far less diluted pitching and they pitched from a higher mound.
Click to expand...

Mays playing at Candlestick (Windlestick as Dad would say), certainly kept him under 714 HR.

I ignore the steroid era numbers.

And a small plug for Cal Ripken Jr. for reigniting our baseball passions after the strike .
 
NIMBY said:
Mays playing at Candlestick (Windlestick as Dad would say), certainly kept him under 714 HR.

I ignore the steroid era numbers.

And a small plug for Cal Ripken Jr. for reigniting our baseball passions after the strike .
Click to expand...

The steroids issues deserves another thread. We can argue about that until we are blue in the face. As far as I know Barry Bonds does not have an * next to his name.
 
Bucky said:
He never hit 20 hr's in a season and he is the greatest of all time? LOL
Click to expand...
Dingers are not the measure of a man. I listed his credentials and they testify.
 
Top Cat said:
:lamo
Click to expand...
Rose, a switch hitter, is the all-time MLB leader in hits (4,256), games played (3,562), at-bats (14,053), singles (3,215), and outs (10,328).[1] He won three World Series rings, three batting titles, one Most Valuable Player Award, two Gold Gloves, the Rookie of the Year Award, and also made 17 All-Star appearances at an unequaled five different positions (second baseman, left fielder, right fielder, third baseman, and first baseman). Rose won both of his Gold Gloves as an outfielder in 1969 and 1970.
 
VanceMack said:
Dingers are not the measure of a man. I listed his credentials and they testify.
Click to expand...

I don't know how to rank Rose. He was obviously a great player. But for me personally I can't separate his BS, his lies and the damage he did to himself and the game after his career was over. I should be able to separate to 2, but I can't.
 
VanceMack said:
Dingers are not the measure of a man. I listed his credentials and they testify.
Click to expand...

Rose isn't the greatest player ever, not even close. Getting hits is important, but that's just one element of offense: Do you hit for power? Do you get on base? Do you run the bases? And that's before we talk defense. In terms of career Wins Above Replacement since 1901, Rose ranks 36th among position players -- behind Jeff Bagwell and ahead of Brooks Robinson. Nobody claims those two are the greatest players ever.
Click to expand...

How good was Pete Rose the baseball player? - SweetSpot- ESPN

Vance, it is not that complicated:

HRs > singles doubles, stolen bases.

Simple math. It would be like arguing pars are better than birdies.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
I don't know how to rank Rose. He was obviously a great player. But for me personally I can't separate his BS, his lies and the damage he did to himself and the game after his career was over. I should be able to separate to 2, but I can't.
Click to expand...
I get the tendency to include the two but they really arent comparable. His body of work throughout his career was nothing short of remarkable. An all star...at 5 different positions. His career hitting record, on base percentages, and just the way he played the game...
 
VanceMack said:
I get the tendency to include the two but they really arent comparable. His body of work throughout his career was nothing short of remarkable. An all star...at 5 different positions. His career hitting record, on base percentages, and just the way he played the game...
Click to expand...

I would actually severely devalue Rose because he was an extremely selfish baseball player. He should have retired several years earlier than he did but he selfishly played the game for individual accomplishments.

You play to win the game, not individual achievements. He should have retired in 1982 but played for selfish gains. The last five years of his career he was actually hurting his teams. He was not even average.
 
Bucky said:
The steroids issues deserves another thread. We can argue about that until we are blue in the face. As far as I know Barry Bonds does not have an * next to his name.
Click to expand...

Tell that to the HOF
 
VanceMack said:
Rose, a switch hitter, is the all-time MLB leader in hits (4,256), games played (3,562), at-bats (14,053), singles (3,215), and outs (10,328).[1] He won three World Series rings, three batting titles, one Most Valuable Player Award, two Gold Gloves, the Rookie of the Year Award, and also made 17 All-Star appearances at an unequaled five different positions (second baseman, left fielder, right fielder, third baseman, and first baseman). Rose won both of his Gold Gloves as an outfielder in 1969 and 1970.
Click to expand...

Then he may well be the most versatile player of all time. That does not make him the greatest. But you go ahead and tell me if you had the choice of who to build a team around, Mays or Rose, that you'd choose Rose.
 
Bucky said:
How good was Pete Rose the baseball player? - SweetSpot- ESPN

Vance, it is not that complicated:

HRs > singles doubles, stolen bases.

Simple math. It would be like arguing pars are better than birdies.
Click to expand...
Thats cute and all...but it doesnt replace the FACTS.
MLB records

4,256 career hits
3,215 career singles
3,562 career games played
14,053 career at-bats
15,890 career plate appearances

Career highlights and awards

17× All-Star (1965, 1967–1971, 1973–1982, 1985)
3× World Series champion (1975, 1976, 1980)
5x NL Penant
NL MVP (1973)
World Series MVP (1975)
NL Rookie of the Year (1963)
2× Gold Glove Award (1969, 1970)
Silver Slugger Award (1981)
Roberto Clemente Award (1976)
3× NL batting champion (1968, 1969, 1973)

You want to throw an obscure metric out there...be my guest. In the real world? The Reds didnt have to play make believe or pretend regarding stats. They have the actual facts. They dont have to pretend "what would happen if he was replaced" because they "have what happened with him THERE"
 
NIMBY said:
Mays playing at Candlestick (Windlestick as Dad would say), certainly kept him under 714 HR.

I ignore the steroid era numbers.

And a small plug for Cal Ripken Jr. for reigniting our baseball passions after the strike .
Click to expand...

Mays also lost two years to military service.
 
Top Cat said:
Then he may well be the most versatile player of all time. That does not make him the greatest. But you go ahead and tell me if you had the choice of who to build a team around, Mays or Rose, that you'd choose Rose.
Click to expand...
Mays was nice. Great career.

1 Championship
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom