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Greatest QB of all-time?

mak2 said:
Top 10. I really think he was good enough to win a couple of super bowls, but it takes a real man to lose 4.
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Not just four, but four in a row. That Bills team was damn good. Jim Kelly should be a top five quarterback. They could just never complete the deal. Sad really. Ironically enough the Giants were one of the teams to deny them the win in very close game. Killed the Bills dream similar to the way they killed the Pats perfect season. I'd say the Bills super bowl teams were the best teams to never win a Super Bowl. The Pats almost perfect season comes a close second.
 
PirateMk1 said:
Not just four, but four in a row. That Bills team was damn good. Jim Kelly should be a top five quarterback. They could just never complete the deal. Sad really. Ironically enough the Giants were one of the teams to deny them the win in very close game. Killed the Bills dream similar to the way they killed the Pats perfect season. I'd say the Bills super bowl teams were the best teams to never win a Super Bowl. The Pats almost perfect season comes a close second.
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Having grown up a Bills fan, a little over an hour from the stadium and watched that team lose the Super Bowl every year I was in high school (so you know my non-Bills-fan friends were SO NICE about it), I can say those four years jaded me something fierce. I learned never to get my expectations up, ever, because sooner or later the other shoe is going to drop and I'm going to end up disappointed. At least as far as sports go.

When I don't get disappointed, such as Michigan winning a share of the 1997 college football title, or the Blue Jays winning the 1992 and 1993 Series, or the Celtics winning the 2008 NBA title, or Syracuse winning the NCAAs in 2003, it's exhiliarating ... I think I appreciate winning much more than your average Yankees or Patriots fan because for me, it's as rare as an albino tiger. But I can never enjoy the ride, because I have conditioned myself to expect failure. And with the Bills -- my favoritest (?) of my favorites -- those expectations are always fulfilled.

The Music City Miracle crushed my soul more than any of the four Super Bowl losses. I was devastated.
 
To this day, Jim Kelly is a favorite of mine, for many reasons, but there's no way I can put him ahead of the guys who won.
 
Going to give some love to some Oldies....Otto Graham, Sid Luckman, and slingin Sammy Baugh
 
Crovax said:
Sad how so few give him credit these days
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My late father was a friend of Paul Brown and Brown admired Unitas. Unitas didn't wear pads protecting his ribs because he though that interfered with his throwing accuracy and distance. and opposing defensive players knew that and hit Unitas in the ribs every chance they could. He played a bunch of games with broken ribs and still kept throwing. He was one real tough SOB and even opposing coaches admired the guy for that.
 
Zyphlin said:
Going to give some love to some Oldies....Otto Graham, Sid Luckman, and slingin Sammy Baugh
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those guys played with injuries that keep modern overly protected prima donnas out of games for weeks

the main measuring stick for a quarterback is winning. and Graham has this

He also holds the record for the highest career winning percentage for an NFL starting quarterback, at 0.814. (wiki)
 
Bucky said:
5. Steve Young

4. Peyton Manning

3. John Elway

2. Joe Montana

1. Tom Brady

IMO.
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This is a pretty good list I wouldnt knock it. Of course moon, farve, marino, Aikman may bump some guys on/off.
Steve Young does not make my list, at least not top 5.

As for Brady at one he could NEVER be my number one. Not that he doesn't belong in the conversation because he does, he is immensely talented but there is something he lacks that keeps him off my number one. But worthy or 2-10.
Without out a VERY solid line I dont think he has much success, at least superbowl success. I dont know how to explain it. He is a baby and whiner more than I like a QB to be. For example when the Steelers won the Superbowl in 06 and 09 with Ben who thinks if you simply swap Brady with Ben that they still win? I dont. Now be clear Im not saying that makes Ben better, Im saying the attributes that Ben has fit for the steelers need at the time. And that was if the O line sucked and you are rushed alot or sacked a bunch he can still get it done. Ive never felt that about brady. SO that for me would keep him out of the number one spot.
 
Zyphlin said:
Going to give some love to some Oldies....Otto Graham, Sid Luckman, and slingin Sammy Baugh
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Of those three, Graham is the best, by far.

Johnny Unitas doesn't get nearly enough credit ... he was putting up 3,000+ yard seasons when virtually none of his contemporaries were. The late-50s/early-60s Colts were one of the first teams to be built entirely around the passing game, and Unitas was the reason why. Unitas's record of 3,481 passing yards stood from 1963 until 1979, when Dan Fouts broke it (4,082) in the Air Coryell offense. Five years later, Marino had his 5,000 yard season. Since then, 4,000+ yard seasons have become commonplace (Peyton Manning has 14 all by himself) and we've had seven other 5,000 yard seasons.

Bobby Layne is another old-school QB who doesn't get his due. Sonny Jurgensen is another.
 
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This is my list of the top 20 QBs of all-time, unranked, since I think it's pretty much impossible to rank:

Tom Brady
Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
Jim Kelly
Dan Marino
John Elway
Steve Young
Dan Fouts
Fran Tarkenton
Johnny Unitas
Roger Staubach
Brett Favre
Ben Roethlisberger
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning
Warren Moon
Bobby Layne
Sammy Baugh
Aaron Rodgers
Otto Graham

The next group includes guys like Ken Stabler (how he's not in the Hall of Fame is beyond me), Len Dawson, Bob Griese, Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning, Kurt Warner, Sonny Jurgensen, Randall Cunningham (VASTLY underrated), Y.A. Tittle, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Steve McNair, Drew Bledsoe, Ken Anderson, guys like that.

A guy who might crack the top 30 at some point, if not the top 20, is Carson Palmer. He's had a hell of a career.

Dead last: Ryan Leaf.
 
Manning can't be on any list.

In his first season he threw 28 Ints
He went 0-4 against the gators
Recent news suggests he's been using HGH maybe from the beginning (see forehead)
 
Soho gator said:
Manning can't be on any list.

In his first season he threw 28 Ints
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So what?

He went 0-4 against the gators
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Rather irrelevant in a discussion of best NFL quarterbacks.

Recent news suggests he's been using HGH maybe from the beginning (see forehead)
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Ah, I see unfounded accusations instantly erase a player's legacy now.
 
AGENT J said:
As for Brady at one he could NEVER be my number one. Not that he doesn't belong in the conversation because he does, he is immensely talented but there is something he lacks that keeps him off my number one. But worthy or 2-10.

Without out a VERY solid line I don't think he has much success, at least superbowl success. I dont know how to explain it. He is a baby and whiner more than I like a QB to be. For example when the Steelers won the Superbowl in 06 and 09 with Ben who thinks if you simply swap Brady with Ben that they still win? I dont. Now be clear Im not saying that makes Ben better, Im saying the attributes that Ben has fit for the steelers need at the time. And that was if the O line sucked and you are rushed alot or sacked a bunch he can still get it done. Ive never felt that about brady. SO that for me would keep him out of the number one spot.
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Brady is the GOAT. The majority of Brady's career he played with mediocre wrs and o-linemen.

Montana played with the GOAT in Jerry Rice and studs like Dwight Clark and John Taylor.

Bradys WR? Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, David Patten, etc... All serviceable wrs but nothing special.

The only 2 things keeping Brady from being the unanimous GOAT QB is a lucky David Tyree miracle catch and a Wes Welker drop in the SB.
 
Bucky said:
1.)Brady is the GOAT. The majority of Brady's career he played with mediocre wrs and o-linemen.

Montana played with the GOAT in Jerry Rice and studs like Dwight Clark and John Taylor.

Bradys WR? Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, David Patten, etc... All serviceable wrs but nothing special.

The only 2 things keeping Brady from being the unanimous GOAT QB is a lucky David Tyree miracle catch and a Wes Welker drop in the SB.
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you are free to believe that but and thats your choice but Ill never buy "goat" status ever . . . top 5? no problem, top 3 maybe. Goat? never.

He is a tremendously talented dude that Id love to have on a team in many situations but not EVERY situation or ALL situations. therefore I can never give him GOAT status. For me that makes it impossible. For example Ive been a laker fan my whole life, its what I was brought up with and its similar to Kobe byrant. Top 10 player of all time easy but I cant call him goat because there are situations (surrounding personal) where I do not pick him and I go with others. Same thing with brady, if I have a avg or weaker line and a avg or weaker run game I NEVER pick him as my QB.
 
What about the sticky gloves the receivers wear today making just touching the ball a reception? If receivers in the 50s on up were allowed to wear those things all the QB records would be altered. The sticky gloves were brought in to boost the possibility of touchdowns to attract viewers.
 
Bucky said:
Brady is the GOAT. The majority of Brady's career he played with mediocre wrs and o-linemen.

Montana played with the GOAT in Jerry Rice and studs like Dwight Clark and John Taylor.

Bradys WR? Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, David Patten, etc... All serviceable wrs but nothing special.

The only 2 things keeping Brady from being the unanimous GOAT QB is a lucky David Tyree miracle catch and a Wes Welker drop in the SB.
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I think your argument is a solid one, but you make it seem as if YOU don't think it's a solid one when you're pretty clearly being dishonest with a name you're leaving off.

Included in that "etc" is arguably the greatest deep threat in NFL history and most likely a top 10 (and some may say top 5) WR of all time.
 
Zyphlin said:
I think your argument is a solid one, but you make it seem as if YOU don't think it's a solid one when you're pretty clearly being dishonest with a name you're leaving off.

Included in that "etc" is arguably the greatest deep threat in NFL history and most likely a top 10 (and some may say top 5) WR of all time.
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What a magical few years that was.
 
Bucky said:
Brady is the GOAT. The majority of Brady's career he played with mediocre wrs and o-linemen.

Montana played with the GOAT in Jerry Rice and studs like Dwight Clark and John Taylor.

Bradys WR? Troy Brown, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, Deion Branch, David Patten, etc... All serviceable wrs but nothing special.

The only 2 things keeping Brady from being the unanimous GOAT QB is a lucky David Tyree miracle catch and a Wes Welker drop in the SB.
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Too be fair Brady had a pretty deadly receiving combo in Hernandez and The Gronk.
 
Where would Jerry Rice rank if J.P. Losman were throwing to him?
 
Zyphlin said:
I think your argument is a solid one, but you make it seem as if YOU don't think it's a solid one when you're pretty clearly being dishonest with a name you're leaving off.

Included in that "etc" is arguably the greatest deep threat in NFL history and most likely a top 10 (and some may say top 5) WR of all time.
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Yes, Brady did have Randy Moss but Brady went to 5 Super Bowls without him.

Brady only played with Moss for 2 seasons.
 
AGENT J said:
Same thing with brady, if I have a avg or weaker line and a avg or weaker run game I NEVER pick him as my QB.
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Only 1 year did Brady play with an elite RB - Corey Dillon in 2004.

Every other year it has been league average at best.
 
Bucky said:
Yes, Brady did have Randy Moss but Brady went to 5 Super Bowls without him.

Brady only played with Moss for 2 seasons.
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And went to one with him, and set a number of his passing records with him, which is why it's rather dishonest to leave him off as an "etc" when trying to act like Brady's just had "serviceable" WR's his entire career
 
Zyphlin said:
And went to one with him, and set a number of his passing records with him, which is why it's rather dishonest to leave him off as an "etc" when trying to act like Brady's just had "serviceable" WR's his entire career
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Brady built a HOF resume well before Randy Moss became a Patriot.

The great Tom Brady saved Moss' career who was so bad in Oakland they gave him up for a 4th round draft pick.
 
Bucky said:
Only 1 year did Brady play with an elite RB - Corey Dillon in 2004.

Every other year it has been league average at best.
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Who said other wise? and how does that impact my statement at all LOL
"if I have a avg or weaker line and a avg or weaker run game I NEVER pick him as my QB."
If the above is true I consider other options. Again you are obviously a huge Brady fan and thats fine, i certainly have no desire to change you, you are free to think of him as GOAT. I simply do not and for me, because of the criteria I gave you, i see no logical reason to give him that title. :shrug:

He's simply not a QB i bring in from scratch and build around. If I have an above avg O-line and RB then Id take him in a heart beat. Thats how "I" view a goat QB and thats why I cant label him as such.
 
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