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In AZ, if your kid has a fever you BETTER listen to the doctor!

Lutherf said:
If this was some Guatemalan kid at the border you'd be up in arms but since it's an American citizen you figure it's a ****ing joke. Good on you.
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If it was some Guatemalan kid anywhere, the majority of Americans would not give a rat's ass. Even when the US plans genocides that kill half a million OTHERS, most Americans don't care.

You don't even care about this kid, you're just pretending to care to make some lame political point.
 
Lutherf said:
A couple decided not to take their feverish child to the hospital. Hours later police kicked down their door



Basically, 2 year old kid has fever of 100. Mom takes him to doctor. Doctor suggests Emergency Room. Kid's fever breaks so mom takes kid home and tells doctor she's not going to the ER. Doctor calls Child Protective Services and, ultimately, the SWAT team kicks in mom's door, takes her kids and sends her to counseling before she can have kids back....all with some judge's approval.
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This is a tough call. A fever in a 2 year old can be potentially life threatening, like meningitis or something. That can kill in a matter of hours. It can lead to a lifetime of seizures. It's a tough call whether government has a right to override the judgment of the mom over professional advice like that.

But I have heard that government has been known to take away custody of young children who need life savig blood transfusions away from Jehovah's witness parents who may refuse to give it to them.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I thought, yeah, whatever... some hyperbole about SWAT kicking in the door... Bull****!

It is exactly that... wow... with riot shield and multiple guns drawn. What the **** is the problem with the police today where guns are drawn for something like this. The Child Services should be sued, the case manager fired and the police put on non-paid leave until their procedures are changed and perhaps their commander fired no matter what.
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You all deserve it because you all asked for it.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Name one thing that is not 100% safe that people are forced to do against their will...
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Pay taxes.
Go to prison.
Get drafted into the military.

There's more, but you get the idea.

I did indeed miss the part with more details:

OP said:
On February 25, the mother took her 2-year-old boy to the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine clinic in Tempe, according to Chandler police records.

It was dinner time. But the toddler’s fever had spiked to over 100 degrees.

The doctor asked if the child had his vaccinations.

The mother said no.

Concerned that a lethargic child with a fever and lacking vaccinations could have meningitis, the doctor instructed the mother to take the child to the emergency department at Banner Cardon Children’s Medical Center in Mesa, according to attorneys at a March 7 court hearing following the removal of the children.

The Republic knows the names of the parents and child but it does not typically identify children in the child-welfare system.

The doctor contacted Banner physicians who recommended the child be “taken to the emergency room as soon as possible,” according to police records. The doctor told the mother that meningitis can be life-threatening and said the hospital would contact her when the mother arrived.
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And then the mom decide she wasn't going.

So the big add here for me is that it wasn't just the one doctor, but at least 2-3, and they had a consensus that the kid needed to be in the ER.
 
WillyPete said:
Pay taxes.Go to prison.Get drafted into the military.
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Paying taxes is safe.Going to prison is for breaking a law.Drafted would be a good analogy... but I argue that the draft is Unconstitutional.
 
ralphcdp said:
Had your mom not let your fever get so high, ... .
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:lol: mom, "let" the fever get high.

Call in the SWAT Team!

Like I said, you are funny... :lol:
 
The child had a fever of 105, not 100, when the parents saw the naturopathic doctor.

The child was not vaccinated.

The parents refused to cooperate with the police when they called for a welfare check via phone, and again when the police came to the house.

The police had a court order.

As to the actual level of force, that seems like an easy call, but it is also easy to imagine all sorts of counterfactuals that would have resulted in the same level of outcry, and far worse results. E.g. if the police did nothing, and the child died of measles, the police would be criticized for a failure to act. If they stood there all night saying "pretty please" and it didn't work, they would be ripped to shreds for incompetence. If the police used less force to enter and the parents fired on the police, that would also receive extensive criticism.

Along those lines, child protective services get it coming and going. If they are too aggressive, they get viciously attacked. If they are insufficiently aggressive, and something happens to a child, they get viciously attacked. Hmmmm.

Anyway. I'm not a big fan of the militarization of the police, but... Let's face it, this is America, and police never know when someone on the other side of the door is going to unload on them.

By the way, the AZ legislator here? Yeah, she is a critic of DCS... and is on record saying that "vaccines are Communist." She also played a role in the law which requires that DCS get a court to sign off on removing a child (i.e. making it harder and slower for DCS to remove kids from potentially abusive environments in some cases) and use "reasonable force" to remove the child if necessary.

I don't have all the answers here, but this looks a lot more complicated than "Police dum, too much force, government bad!!!"
 
Bodhisattva said:
Until vaccinations are 100% safe people should be free to not vaccinate.
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Okay, sure. Just don't send your kid to school and endanger others.
 
The best solution for CPS overreach would be to require that, within 72 hours or so of any removal, a hearing be held with the parents present (or at least with the opportunity to be present). The state would have the obligation of proving that there is an ongoing danger to the child which justifies continuing removal. Any long-term removal would require a process akin to a criminal trial.
 
Grand Mal said:
Okay, sure. Just don't send your kid to school and endanger others.
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There is that option... although I don't think that is justified.
 
Bodhisattva said:
There is that option... although I don't think that is justified.
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Some children can't be vaccinated. Exposure could be a grave health risk for them. Will they have to be home-schooled because of a choice you've made?
 
Bodhisattva said:
You can choose not to drive...
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And you can choose not to vaccinate your kids. Just keep the little plague-ridden infectious disease carriers away from children from sane families.
 
Grand Mal said:
Some children can't be vaccinated. Exposure could be a grave health risk for them. Will they have to be home-schooled because of a choice you've made?
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They will encounter other unvaccinated people in the world... life is not fair. Some kids die.
 
WillyPete said:
We don't know everything he was basing his opinion on, or the kid's history.

Presumably he knew they were anti-vaccine folk. If that was the extent of what he based his reporting on, then sure that's no good.

If he included that info as part of an overall diagnosis, then that's reasonable. It opens their kid up to a whole array of illnesses most of us aren't susceptible to.

But neither of us know here and now.
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You have a valid point about the Doctor's reasonable concern, but a reasonable response would have been a welfare check by a registered nurse, not a SWAT team.
 
bearpoker said:
Send their kids to school.
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Oops! I must not have made myself clear. It is not 100% safe to send kids to school, yet the government requires citizens to do so.
 
bearpoker said:
You have a valid point about the Doctor's reasonable concern, but a reasonable response would have been a welfare check by a registered nurse, not a SWAT team.
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The parents refused entry to the police, multiple times. It's unlikely that a nurse working with DCS would have gotten the parents to open the door.
 
Visbek said:
The parents refused entry to the police, multiple times. It's unlikely that a nurse working with DCS would have gotten the parents to open the door.
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The biggest issue in this case (or any similar case) isn't the original removal. The real issue is that all DCS has to do is convince a judge that the original removal was justified, and they can basically hold a kid hostage and make the parents jump through hoops to get the kid back.
 
bearpoker said:
You have a valid point about the Doctor's reasonable concern, but a reasonable response would have been a welfare check by a registered nurse, not a SWAT team.
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I don't disagree, but I doubt the doctor picked from a list of options.

Child services/the police would be the people to put that question to. I'd wager it's pretty common for SWAT to serve time sensitive warrants, since they're most often on standby. Maybe they were the only thing available.

The only other idea I can come up with is that possibly this family has a history of resisting police, so they were expecting trouble. The family made them kick the door in even with a warrant. Not a lot of RN's are going to be up for that.
 
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