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Oklahoma, Kentucky public schools close as thousands of teachers strike[W:21]

In high school I was an A/B student in college preparatory classes. I was in accelerated classes. I did not go to college after high school because of family and financial problems. I have since taken lots of college courses in heating, A/C, plumbing, blueprint reading, controls, advanced controls, etc. My college grades have been 4.0.

I also have been certified and factory trained by too many different products that I have sold, installed, and repaired over the last 40 years. I have so many certifications I am certifiable in the plumbing, heating and AC industries.

If your GPA was that good, and you were in accelerated classes, and you have continued to thrive in college courses, then you've clearly gotten a lot of benefit from school.

You say that "government run schools have not gotten any better since you went".

They HAVEN'T, did you miss something??
They've become a shell of what they once were, they've gotten much worse.
Have people been trying to tell you that they've improved or something??
I am really confused by your statement, because the reason teachers are so fed up isn't because schools "haven't gotten any better", it's because they've been on an almost straight line to circling the drain thanks in no small part to a steady multi-angle campaign by the Right to BREAK the public school system altogether.
(which is no different than the overall goal to break ALL government run institutions altogether - surprise!)

Oklahoma and Kansas already DID CUT TAXES, you're already looking at the results.
FAILURE.
That's not a bug, it's a feature.
When Republicans talk about things like public schools failing, they are BRAGGING.

Did you actually think people haven't caught on?
Agenda?? We know who has the agenda.
 
Out of the blue: I'm all for paying teachers what they are worth and a good teacher is worth a lot. I also believe in a merit-based system, not unionized.

Well, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for. Republicans in Oklahoma seem to have a fetish with persistently slashing education funding and the consequence of that is an exodus of good teachers, school districts forced to cut back to 4-day school weeks, and teachers left with starvation wages and 50-year old textbooks to teach from.
 
If your GPA was that good, and you were in accelerated classes, and you have continued to thrive in college courses, then you've clearly gotten a lot of benefit from school.

How much I was taught that was clearly wrong by public schools would need it's own thread and I could write pages if not books on the subject.
 
You say that "government run schools have not gotten any better since you went".

They HAVEN'T, did you miss something??

Every where I have lived school taxes have increased but not the education our children are taught. Teachers still work part time while trying to teach more stuff to our children. In order to learn more we need to give our children more time to learn it. 3 months off every summer has and will continue be a major problem.
 
How much I was taught that was clearly wrong by public schools would need it's own thread and I could write pages if not books on the subject.

Oh sure, but shipping in some illegals and paying them two bucks an hour as teachers is going to fix that.
Is there anything that you actually take seriously?
I get the impression that, for you, political discussion is far detached from reality.
That's perfectly okay if that is what floats your boat but I don't need to be one of your tools, so just own it and say so.
If not, I'll just assume that is the case and do what I need to do so that I don't need to see anything you say.
 
More comments from someone who literally has no clue what goes on in the classroom.

Mumble mumble UNIONS BAD...mumble mumble...let poor people starve...mumble mumble...poverty is population control.
A SOFTWARE PROGRAM could write 95% of that stuff.
 
How much I was taught that was clearly wrong by public schools would need it's own thread and I could write pages if not books on the subject.

My public school education was stellar. The Montgomery County Maryland Public School system was ranked as one of the best...in the WORLD.
 
More comments from someone who literally has no clue what goes on in the classroom.

Tell me "what goes on in the classroom" that has to do with unions and teacher compensation. "You just don't understand!" is petulant whining.

Mumble mumble UNIONS BAD...

They are bad.

mumble mumble...let poor people starve... mumble mumble...poverty is population control.

Unions and teacher compensation policies have nothing to do with poor people starving or not.

My public school education was stellar. The Montgomery County Maryland Public School system was ranked as one of the best...in the WORLD.

That's a wonderful privilege you had then. Public school education quality varies wildly across the country. Poor districts have abysmal quality. Rich districts often have great public schools and living in those zones is financially impossible for most poor and average income folks. The way this all works promotes inequality, and over the course of decades of supreme NEA/AFT power, the problems are as stark as ever. Unionism clearly does not work to address these issues. I don't understand why you're so unquestioningly allegiant to the unions.
 
Oh sure, but shipping in some illegals and paying them two bucks an hour as teachers is going to fix that.
Is there anything that you actually take seriously?
I get the impression that, for you, political discussion is far detached from reality.
That's perfectly okay if that is what floats your boat but I don't need to be one of your tools, so just own it and say so.
If not, I'll just assume that is the case and do what I need to do so that I don't need to see anything you say.

Are you saying illegal aliens can only pick crops or do menial tasks. Are they not smart enough to be teachers? If we are going to exploit them lets use them to reduce taxes.
We educate them with the guarantee if they work for 10 years for slave labor as teachers they will become citizens and can negotiate a better pay. Why should only the rich and powerful benefit from exploiting these people. Plus it is a much better deal for the illegals. Right now they are worked to death in unsafe brutal working conditions and then discarded like the trash.
 
Tell me "what goes on in the classroom" that has to do with unions and teacher compensation. "You just don't understand!" is petulant whining.

You first. Simple question: How much K-12 teaching experience do you have?
 
In high school I was an A/B student in college preparatory classes. I was in accelerated classes. I did not go to college after high school because of family and financial problems. I have since taken lots of college courses in heating, A/C, plumbing, blueprint reading, controls, advanced controls, etc. My college grades have been 4.0.

I also have been certified and factory trained by too many different products that I have sold, installed, and repaired over the last 40 years. I have so many certifications I am certifiable in the plumbing, heating and AC industries.

That kind of post-HS, practical-skills training is one form of education in which we need to invest more heavily.
 
Tell me "what goes on in the classroom" that has to do with unions and teacher compensation. "You just don't understand!" is petulant whining.



They are bad.



Unions and teacher compensation policies have nothing to do with poor people starving or not.



That's a wonderful privilege you had then. Public school education quality varies wildly across the country. Poor districts have abysmal quality. Rich districts often have great public schools and living in those zones is financially impossible for most poor and average income folks. The way this all works promotes inequality, and over the course of decades of supreme NEA/AFT power, the problems are as stark as ever. Unionism clearly does not work to address these issues. I don't understand why you're so unquestioningly allegiant to the unions.

It's not that I am allegiant to THE unions, it's that I am not a union buster like you are.
Unions can be good or bad, but they are not the source of the problems we face.
Of course, you ARE a "neo-malthusian" and I know what those are, so I accept the fact that I might as well be whistling Brahms to a steam whistle for all the good it will do me in my attempt to peel you from your rabid anti-union stance.

My education wasn't due to a wonderful privilege.
Every single public school district in the state of Maryland, even the poorest ones in the entire region, the ones in Appalachia, were excellent.
Everyone who is versed in right wing politics understands the cheap parlor trick that gets played on public schools, and it is the same cheap parlor trick that gets played against the post office, the VA, schools, federal highways, public utilities, literally ANYTHING which is a public good.
With the VA, they can get all the money they want for remodeling projects or paintings to hang on walls but no matter how much they beg for funding to pay doctor salaries, Congress enjoys saying "NO WAY".
School districts generally don't have a tough time getting new buses or athletic equipment, but teacher pay is cut to the bone and being cut further.
The Post Office can boast a new fleet of mail trucks next year but they're still paying FIVE BILLION a YEAR to fund benefits for postal workers who aren't even BORN YET.
Cheap parlor trick.

I have to admit, it's entertaining wasting my time penning a riposte to a neomalthusian.
I respect the fact that you wear your platform as a badge of honor. It's very open of you.

But at the same time, any back and forth between someone like me and a neomalthusian might as well be me versus a John Bircher.
The Malthusians were a cult. So were the Birchers.
 
You first. Simple question: How much K-12 teaching experience do you have?

One does not need to be a teacher in order to have a valid argument and opinion regarding teacher labor cartels that have dominated the discourse over teacher compensation for the last half century.

But since you seem to think that any person with an opinion needs to "know what goes on inside the classroom," go ahead. Explain what goes on inside the classroom that has any relevance to the discussion about teacher compensation policies.

It's not that I am allegiant to THE unions, it's that I am not a union buster like you are.
Unions can be good or bad, but they are not the source of the problems we face.
Of course, you ARE a "neo-malthusian" and I know what those are, so I accept the fact that I might as well be whistling Brahms to a steam whistle for all the good it will do me in my attempt to peel you from your rabid anti-union stance.

My education wasn't due to a wonderful privilege.
Every single public school district in the state of Maryland, even the poorest ones in the entire region, the ones in Appalachia, were excellent.
Everyone who is versed in right wing politics understands the cheap parlor trick that gets played on public schools, and it is the same cheap parlor trick that gets played against the post office, the VA, schools, federal highways, public utilities, literally ANYTHING which is a public good.

I'm not making any standard blanket anti-government arguments about teachers or public schools. Government is the answer to this, actually. Public education is public, meaning it's funded by government, which makes laws and regulations. Government has to be the thing that addresses the disorganized mess of no standards and abysmal starting pay failing to attract new talent to teaching and overpaid mediocre teachers who can never be fired. You can't fix public education's cluster**** regarding teacher compensation without having government more involved and forceful, and unions less so. Unions have had enormous power over this for way too long, and it has led to overemphasis on preserving high pay for the oldest teachers based merely on longevity, and sacrificing newer teachers in order to achieve it whenever necessary. That's just straight bad policy, but it's what unions demand, and it has led to these conditions.

What I'm saying is not anti-government, it's pro-government and anti-union. We're talking about public sector unions here, so the union is inherently against government and vice versa. I am taking the pro-government stance. The disorganized mess of individual teacher bargaining units across the country are not working to standardize and regulate teacher compensation for adequacy. Teacher unions are not the answer to anything. They are enormously powerful, extremely political, and yet we have teacher compensation that is all over the map. You're paid absolute peanuts to teach in Hawaii, Virginia, or South Dakota, and you're ridiculously overpaid (relative to cost of living) if you're a tenured teacher in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio. It's all over the place. No regularity, no standards, just a gazillion different teacher union reps quietly and secretly working out deals with a gazillion education administrators all across the country. And it's all as disheveled and disgruntled as it's ever been.

I have to admit, it's entertaining wasting my time penning a riposte to a neomalthusian...

...But at the same time, any back and forth between someone like me and a neomalthusian might as well be me versus a John Bircher.
The Malthusians were a cult. So were the Birchers.

Getting distracted by the semantics involved in my alias isn't a good argument. Your avatar is an evil looking bunny. Who cares? Completely irrelevant to the issue.
 
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My public school education was stellar. The Montgomery County Maryland Public School system was ranked as one of the best...in the WORLD.

I went to a lot of different schools all over the country. The best schools I went to were the catholic schools when I was in the lower grades. The maintained order in the classroom. The worst schools I went to were the large public schools with thousands of students.
 
One does not need to be a teacher in order to have a valid argument and opinion

Ahhhh, so you have zero classroom experience.

That is as much as I need to know regarding your credibility on this subject. I'll give you the last word.
 
Ahhhh, so you have zero classroom experience.

That is as much as I need to know regarding your credibility on this subject. I'll give you the last word.

Most people in society are not teachers. That fact does not invalidate their opinions or arguments concerning public sector compensation.
 
Unions have had enormous power over this for way too long, and it has led to overemphasis on preserving high pay for the oldest teachers based merely on longevity, and sacrificing newer teachers in order to achieve it whenever necessary. That's just straight bad policy, but it's what unions demand, and it has led to these conditions.

The teacher unions didn't invent tenure, despite widespread beliefs to the contrary. Tenure evolved in the 19th century as one of the few perks available to people who were paid low wages, had classes of 70 or 80 or more, and endured terrible working conditions.
In 19th century New York City once a teacher was hired, she had lifetime tenure in that school, but only in that school. In fact, she could teach in the same school until she retired—without a pension or health benefits—or died.

Male teachers (regardless of where they taught, though almost all were in high schools) were paid more than female teachers, on the assumption that they had a family to support and women did not.
Mary Murphy started teaching in the Brooklyn schools in 1891. Ten years later, in 1901, she got married. That was a mistake. When she got married, the Board of Education charged her with gross misconduct and fired her. Female teachers were not allowed to marry.

Then there was Bridget Pexitto, a veteran teacher of 18 years in the Bronx. She took advantage of the new right to get married without losing her job. But then she got pregnant. That was a mistake. The Board of Education fired her on charges of "gross negligence by being absent to have a baby." Not only that, the Board ordered the superintendent of schools to discover whether there were any other pregnant teachers in the city's schools. He somehow did a visual inspection of the city's teachers and found 14 of them, and they were promptly suspended from teaching.

This is just a handful of stories from one city but make no mistake, they are repeated throughout the country in our history.
Marriage penalties were quite nearly universal around the country for female teachers prior to unions.

Shall we talk about the "Palmer Raids" of the 1920's? They weren't just directed at immigrants, they were also designed to sweep up unionists.

Getting distracted by the semantics involved in my alias isn't a good argument. Your avatar is an evil looking bunny. Who cares? Completely irrelevant to the issue.

Totally relevant. Your alias isn't SEMANTICS, it identifies precisely what you believe.
You ARE a Neo-Malthusian, and what you believe is the kind of tripe that led to people behaving as if they were characters in a Dickens novel...because it WAS the Dickens era from whence your value platform first emerged.
Claiming I am distracted by your handle is nothing more than the Great and Powerful Oz demanding that we "pay NO attention to that man behind the curtain!!"
You're being absolutely true to form.

And there are many more reasons WHY teachers unions were created in the first place.
We can have a conversation about how to make unions a little more responsive but as long as you continue to place the blame for ALL the troubles on the existence of teacher unions, you are continuing to peddle the lies peddled during the Palmer era.
It will not go well for you or your kind. Unions are crushed right now, but they will resurge.
The more you try to crush worker's rights, the stronger unions will be when they come back.
No matter what laws are passed, no matter how draconian the punishments are, no matter how cult-like the dogma becomes, unions are here forever.

And you can't stop what's coming.
You may as well run outside and yell at a thunderstorm.

SImpsons_GrampaAbe.jpg
 
The teacher unions didn't invent tenure, despite widespread beliefs to the contrary. Tenure evolved in the 19th century as one of the few perks available to people who were paid low wages, had classes of 70 or 80 or more, and endured terrible working conditions.
In 19th century New York City once a teacher was hired, she had lifetime tenure in that school, but only in that school. In fact, she could teach in the same school until she retired—without a pension or health benefits—or died.

Male teachers (regardless of where they taught, though almost all were in high schools) were paid more than female teachers, on the assumption that they had a family to support and women did not.
Mary Murphy started teaching in the Brooklyn schools in 1891. Ten years later, in 1901, she got married. That was a mistake. When she got married, the Board of Education charged her with gross misconduct and fired her. Female teachers were not allowed to marry.

Then there was Bridget Pexitto, a veteran teacher of 18 years in the Bronx. She took advantage of the new right to get married without losing her job. But then she got pregnant. That was a mistake. The Board of Education fired her on charges of "gross negligence by being absent to have a baby." Not only that, the Board ordered the superintendent of schools to discover whether there were any other pregnant teachers in the city's schools. He somehow did a visual inspection of the city's teachers and found 14 of them, and they were promptly suspended from teaching.

This is just a handful of stories from one city but make no mistake, they are repeated throughout the country in our history.
Marriage penalties were quite nearly universal around the country for female teachers prior to unions.

Shall we talk about the "Palmer Raids" of the 1920's? They weren't just directed at immigrants, they were also designed to sweep up unionists.

History lessons don’t demonstrate anything with regard to how teachers should be compensated. Unions don’t promote or accomplish effective national teacher compensation standards.

Totally relevant. Your alias isn’t SEMANTICS, it identifies precisely what you believe.
You ARE a Neo-Malthusian, and what you believe is the kind of tripe that led to people behaving as if they were characters in a Dickens novel...because it WAS the Dickens era from whence your value platform first emerged.
Claiming I am distracted by your handle is nothing more than the Great and Powerful Oz demanding that we "pay NO attention to that man behind the curtain!!"
You're being absolutely true to form.

That’s a lot of energy spent deciding you know exactly what I think about everything based on an Internet alias I randomly made up when I was 22.

We can have a conversation about how to make unions a little more responsive

They don’t need to be “a little more responsive,” they need to be purely voluntary professional associations.

but as long as you continue to place the blame for ALL the troubles on the existence of teacher unions

I don’t, but teachers unions don’t need to exist. They’re more of a barrier to progress than anything.

The more you try to crush worker's rights

Inexcusable dishonesty. Unions crush workers rights by refusing to let them opt out of representation or dues and fighting their right to routine recertification elections. They trample workers rights, shamefully claiming it’s for “the good of the union.”

No matter what laws are passed, no matter how draconian the punishments are, no matter how cult-like the dogma becomes, unions are here forever.

No they’re not. There’s no coherent place for labor cartels in a future that is progressively post-labor. Unions a holdover from the 19th century. They should have been put out to pasture decades ago.
 
History lessons don’t demonstrate anything with regard to how teachers should be compensated. Unions don’t promote or accomplish effective national teacher compensation standards.

They don't?
You and I have nothing more to talk about.
You've truly performed admirably, like any Malthusian cultist should.
There is a reason why the Malthusians were categorically thrust from the limelight long ago.
You just demonstrated it.

So long.
 
That kind of post-HS, practical-skills training is one form of education in which we need to invest more heavily.

While it gives you a good feeling that you are doing the job right it does not help you make more money when the trades are saturated with flimflam artist, crooks, and illegal aliens who aren't qualified to push a grocery cart around are underbidding you. They work for cash, pay no taxes, are not insured, bonded, licensed, or trained. They move from city to city following catastrophes ripping off the elderly and the poor who are struggling to make ends meet. Plus their shoddy work requires they move on.
 
Conservatives always wanted to starve the beast. Now citizens are realizing that they are the beast and don't like getting starved.
 
They don't?

Not in the slightest.

You and I have nothing more to talk about.
You've truly performed admirably, like any Malthusian cultist should.
There is a reason why the Malthusians were categorically thrust from the limelight long ago.
You just demonstrated it.

So long.

This is no more relevant to the topic than if I fixated on the evil bunny avatar you chose. Completely irrelevant.

Unions need to be strictly voluntary professional associations. Removing their ability to coerce people into paying them dues, or to forcibly represent a worker who doesn’t want their representation, will go most of the way to turning them into voluntary associations, rather than cartels. Cartels have no place in the future.
 
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While it gives you a good feeling that you are doing the job right it does not help you make more money when the trades are saturated with flimflam artist, crooks, and illegal aliens who aren't qualified to push a grocery cart around are underbidding you. They work for cash, pay no taxes, are not insured, bonded, licensed, or trained. They move from city to city following catastrophes ripping off the elderly and the poor who are struggling to make ends meet. Plus their shoddy work requires they move on.

I almost agree with you, but you're blaming the people who just want to get by instead of the system that enables that kind of undercutting. We need protections in place so that scamming people or undercutting licensed workers is much more difficult.
 
I almost agree with you, but you're blaming the people who just want to get by instead of the system that enables that kind of undercutting. We need protections in place so that scamming people or undercutting licensed workers is much more difficult.

I have turned in people. The problem is these people are caught given a court date and they never show up but move on to another part of the country with a new name and business name. I asked why don't you throw them in jail until their day in court. The jails are full. If they are over crowded they are fined by the federal government. The only other recourse is to release someone else. So we put a flimflam artist in jail and release a more dangerous criminal. Then you have the illegals that our federal government should be deporting getting out of jail and going right back on our streets. So the local government just takes the position of why even waste your time arresting them.
 
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