• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Oklahoma will execute innocent man

ReverendHellh0und said:
Never made that argument.





I agree, as long as you can prove it with DNA, if you can't you shouldn't be killing them on he said/she said.
Click to expand...

how the **** are you going to get DNA evidence from a person that never goes near the crime scene?

they order a hit....the pay the hit man....they are guilty of murder for hire.....same as capital murder in most places

you've been watching too many episodes of CSI
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
You are so right, my bad, shoot them dead, that's much better. /facepalm
Click to expand...

That doesn't address the point, if the evidence isn't good enough to execute, why is it good enough to imprison for decades?
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
It's more expensive to warehouse you. This is what the private prison industry wants.
Click to expand...

Private prisons don't want the worst of the worst, they want to house the petty criminals. You seem fixated on prisons and a series of false assumptions.

Forbes, may1, 2014- they find the entire cost of a death penalty trial, appeals, housing multiples of expense higher than a 'death penalty off the table' trial.The Appeals process alone is 44Xs longer in a death penalty case. Costs the state 137 million in total for a death row case vs 11.5 lifetime in prison.

So it is cheaper to warehouse them, and private prisons 'feed' on petty criminals where the violence factor is much lower.

Have a good day... :peace
 
Luftwaffe said:
Costs of the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center

Doesn't seem financially responsible to me.
Click to expand...

Not really a good argument - we could make it very cheap and very quick if we wanted to - take em out back behind the courthouse, bullet to the head, done.

And in arguing why we shouldn't do that, that's when you get the useful argument about the possibility of false positive convictions.


I don't know everything about this case but a cursory examination shows that the man knew the whereabouts of the body and lied to the police; that coupled with the testimony of the contract killer is apparently what us led us to today.

I do not think the contract killer deserves a different sentence than his client, however. I think both belong in prison forever.
 
gdgyva said:
how the **** are you going to get DNA evidence from a person that never goes near the crime scene?
Click to expand...

You aren't. nature of the beast.

they order a hit....the pay the hit man....they are guilty of murder for hire.....same as capital murder in most places
Click to expand...

True, put them in jail for life.


you've been watching too many episodes of CSI
Click to expand...

I don't watch TV.
 
notquiteright said:
Private prisons don't want the worst of the worst, they want to house the petty criminals. You seem fixated on prisons and a series of false assumptions.

Forbes, may1, 2014- they find the entire cost of a death penalty trial, appeals, housing multiples of expense higher than a 'death penalty off the table' trial.The Appeals process alone is 44Xs longer in a death penalty case. Costs the state 137 million in total for a death row case vs 11.5 lifetime in prison.

So it is cheaper to warehouse them, and private prisons 'feed' on petty criminals where the violence factor is much lower.

Have a good day... :peace
Click to expand...




lol, "False assumptions", you mean the **** you just made up and decided to argue against?
 
Luftwaffe said:
The fact that he was convicted on nothing other than one witness's testimony is semi retarded.
Click to expand...

Many thousands of people with less than a high school education have made excellent jurors, throughout this country's history. The news article cited did not say Glossip "was convicted on nothing other than one witness's testimony." It said he was convicted largely on Sneed's testimony. But no one really knows what evidence persuaded any one juror. Ninety per cent of the evidence might have come from Sneed's testimony, but a juror might have been convinced of Glossip's guilt mostly by the other ten per cent that did not come from that testimony.
 
Lutherf said:
Maybe this is a dumb question but how does hiring someone to murder someone else make you "innocent"?
Click to expand...

Because there's no evidence* that he was hired to murder anyone.

*
evidence
Tweet noun ev·i·dence \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\
: something which shows that something else exists or is true

: a visible sign of something

: material that is presented to a court of law to help find the truth about something

Evidence | Definition of evidence by Merriam-Webster
Click to expand...
 
notquiteright said:
I'm an Okie, I followed this trial, it was local news here. A Texan with a past history of violence and a drifter lifestyle was convicted of the murder. He at first denied anyone else was involved, refused to repeat his testimony at the second trial, the 'motive' could never be produced, and Glossip had no past history of any violence and had managed several fast food places before the Hotel, he received bonuses for his work at the hotel prior to the murder.

Now the appeal system doesn't retry the whole affair, it simply looks for issues that hindered a fair trail- say the DA not handing over evidence to the defense.

So what I would advise folks is if you ever get charged with murder in Oklahoma- HIRE a lawyer, a court appointed one will only make sure you get a trial before they hang you... :shock:
Click to expand...

I have no knowledge of this case beyond what has been presented and discussed here. As a result, I have to defer to your interpretation and conclusion.

As a point of reference, I can say from personal experience that in California, you can rape, kidnap, torture and murder someone, be found with evidence, get convicted and sentenced to die, and still have your case held up for decades on appeal. See link below. For those who look, Colleen C was my then girl friends college roommate. Cathy K, my girlfriend.

They forced her to try and get my girlfriend to come "help" her. Thank god she went with her brother and they were scared to grab her as well. My now wife of 38 years, as well as my children and grandchild would not be here today had they not been scared away.

People v. Fields (1983) :: :: Supreme Court of California Decisions :: California Case Law :: California Law :: U.S. Law :: Justia

So I guess the message there is, kill in California and live a long and well cared for life.

Two sides to a very difficult situation and question.
 
Last edited:
Ikari said:
Except a jury of peers doesn't mean there was evidence, and from all the reports, it seems that the prosecution had nothing but hearsay. So I would suggest you are likely quite mistaken about the evidence thing.
Click to expand...

He's facing death, based on a jury trial, and what I would imagine are many appeals and other legal procedures and findings. You have offered little in rebuttal to this truth than "doesn't mean", and "it seems". As such, I'm pretty comfortable with my suggestion that you are the one having difficulty with the evidence thing.
 
Gaius46 said:
Appellate courts generally don't look at the facts of the case so the reliability of a witness isn't a question they'd look into. Aside from that there's the governor who could but chose not to exercise his pardon powers , which given that this is Oklahoma is hardly surprising.

Who else would have looked at it?
Click to expand...

Why the slur against the state of Oklahoma? Unless you have examined the evidence in this case as closely as the governor of that state, I can't see what basis you have for suggesting he should have pardoned this man.
 
Paleocon said:
The fact of there being a great number of appeals is irrelevant. One witnesses testimony is legally sufficient in our legal system, and appeals courts cannot judge a witness's credibility. So the appeals courts could only deal with technical challenges, the quality of the evidence against him would not have been relevant to the appeals process.
Click to expand...

Of course it would. It's many times used as the basis for appeal. What you may be confusing is the process typically involved in the Direct Appeal required of any case involving a sentence of death.

Death Penalty Appeals Process | Capital Punishment in Context
 
Gaius46 said:
Appellate courts generally don't look at the facts of the case so the reliability of a witness isn't a question they'd look into. Aside from that there's the governor who could but chose not to exercise his pardon powers , which given that this is Oklahoma is hardly surprising.

Who else would have looked at it?
Click to expand...

Death Penalty Appeals Process | Capital Punishment in Context

State Post-Conviction
This is the second stage of the appellate process. Petitions are first filed with the original trial judge, then appealed to any intermediate courts (when applicable), and then finally to the state's highest court. At this stage, the defendant may raise issues surrounding the conviction and sentence that are outside of the record. The defendant can raise issues such as ineffective assistance of counsel, juror misconduct, newly-discovered evidence and Brady violations (A Brady violation occurs when the state withholds evidence that could help the defense's case). There are strict timelines that must be followed when filing this appeal, and missing a timeline may end a defendant's appeals. The defendant may again choose to petition the U.S. Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari. If the Court denies the writ, the defendant has exhausted all State remedies, and the case can be continued in federal court.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
because the system is imperfect.
Click to expand...

And how does that mean the two should be treated differently?

ocean515 said:
Of course it would. It's many times used as the basis for appeal. What you may be confusing is the process typically involved in the Direct Appeal required of any case involving a sentence of death.

Death Penalty Appeals Process | Capital Punishment in Context
Click to expand...

Your link does not support your claim. I'm not confusing anything, that appeals courts may not judge credibility of trial witnesses is a well established principle of our legal system.
 
Paleocon said:
And how does that mean the two should be treated differently?
Click to expand...


Seriously?

Are you seriously asking me how if we kill the person, how is it different if we didnt' if we come to find out they were innocent? really?
 
Paleocon said:
And how does that mean the two should be treated differently?



Your link does not support your claim. I'm not confusing anything, that appeals courts may not judge credibility of trial witnesses is a well established principle of our legal system.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you can help me understand the following then:

State Post-Conviction

This is the second stage of the appellate process. Petitions are first filed with the original trial judge, then appealed to any intermediate courts (when applicable), and then finally to the state's highest court. At this stage, the defendant may raise issues surrounding the conviction and sentence that are outside of the record. The defendant can raise issues such as ineffective assistance of counsel, juror misconduct, newly-discovered evidence and Brady violations (A Brady violation occurs when the state withholds evidence that could help the defense's case). There are strict timelines that must be followed when filing this appeal, and missing a timeline may end a defendant's appeals. The defendant may again choose to petition the U.S. Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari. If the Court denies the writ, the defendant has exhausted all State remedies, and the case can be continued in federal court.​
 
have i yet to see, or hear anything other than conjecture that there is no evidence against this guy

a panel of 12 citizens voted guilty unanimously

they apparently heard enough, and saw enough evidence to disagree with you that this guy didnt hire out the killing

where is the court transcript?

where is the case?

his lawyer saying anything means NOTHING to me......
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Seriously?

Are you seriously asking me how if we kill the person, how is it different if we didnt' if we come to find out they were innocent? really?
Click to expand...

It's a difference of degree, not of kind. Someone who was executed wrongly is only a bit more screwed than someone who was imprisoned for life wrongly. They both experienced permanent removal from the outside world.
 
ocean515 said:
Perhaps you can help me understand the following then:

State Post-Conviction

This is the second stage of the appellate process. Petitions are first filed with the original trial judge, then appealed to any intermediate courts (when applicable), and then finally to the state's highest court. At this stage, the defendant may raise issues surrounding the conviction and sentence that are outside of the record. The defendant can raise issues such as ineffective assistance of counsel, juror misconduct, newly-discovered evidence and Brady violations (A Brady violation occurs when the state withholds evidence that could help the defense's case). There are strict timelines that must be followed when filing this appeal, and missing a timeline may end a defendant's appeals. The defendant may again choose to petition the U.S. Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari. If the Court denies the writ, the defendant has exhausted all State remedies, and the case can be continued in federal court.​
Click to expand...

If the attorney did not act reasonably, or if the jurors were bribed, or if evidence was withheld, or if there is new evidence, or something like that, it is an issue during the collateral appeals.
 
Luftwaffe said:
Let's play devils advocate. Was there anything other than the testimony?

I never saw anything saying something like "the defendant withdrew X amount from his bank account and at around that time the murderer received X amount" etc. etc.

:shrug:
Click to expand...

There was plenty. There was the fact that he lied to the police. That later, he finally told the cops the guy TOLD him he'd killed him. There was the fact that the guy embezzled money from the victim and was about to get his comeuppance. There was the fact that the guy tried to hide the body from staff until....until when?

This site is GREAT for expressing opinions. But expressing an opinion that a jury's decision, after nine days of testimony, was wrong because a few paragraph news article says it is? Priceless.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
How in the world, logically could warehousing them cost LESS than sticking a needle into them?

Audio is unreliable, can be staged, edited, etc.

Sure it is, but if you don't have that DNA, it's not conclusive, I'd rather risk keeping the wrong person in jail for thier life than killing them outright.
Click to expand...

We disagree in principle. I don't agree with the death penalty for even the most heinous crime, DNA...eyewitness...whatever. I think that's much too easy an exit. It's an exit I can't elect for myself. Seems much more appropriate to keep a person in jail for 25 years, caged like an animal, enduring all of the horrors our prison system has to offer...and then allow them to die like the rest of us, except alone.

As to it costing less to warehouse, there've been any number of studies showing that to be true because of the necessary appeals processes the state has to go through before one is executed.
 
solletica said:
The following illustrates how conservative states practice the "right to life". . .

Sanctity of Life | Mary Fallin for Governor
Click to expand...

I oppose the death penalty - but form what I've seen related to this case he is nto innocent. He never once has stated 'I didn't do it'.

That being said - hundreds of TRULY innocent individuals are freed from death row - not just death row and given a stay or reduced sentence, but freed 100% because of new evidence that exonerated them. That in itself I do find appalling because - this guy in the OP wasn't *truly innocent* but a lot of others are.
 
MaggieD said:
We disagree in principle. I don't agree with the death penalty for even the most heinous crime, DNA...eyewitness...whatever. I think that's much too easy an exit. It's an exit I can't elect for myself. Seems much more appropriate to keep a person in jail for 25 years, caged like an animal, enduring all of the horrors our prison system has to offer...and then allow them to die like the rest of us, except alone.

As to it costing less to warehouse, there've been any number of studies showing that to be true because of the necessary appeals processes the state has to go through before one is executed.
Click to expand...

That appeals process could and should be shortened. Letting a person live another fifteen years or more after he has been sentenced to death is not swift, sure justice. Fifty years ago, executions were carried out in this country without undue delay, and most knowledgeable people did not think the persons executed were being deprived of life without due process of law. Interminable appeals are not a sign we are more sophisticated or civilized today than we used to be. If anything, they show just the opposite.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom