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Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

NeverTrumpGOP said:
Alabama's senior member of Congress comes out against Roy Moore. He didn't have to. He chose to do this.

He said:

Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore' - CNNPolitics
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He must be one of the Republicans who actually remember what the party of Reagan stood for (I voted for him, remember). As much as I beat up on Reagan for the disaster of supply-side economics, he would never - ever - have tolerated someone like Roy Moore being in the GOP, much less supported him for Congress. And Reagan would have outright rejected Trump.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen between now and 2020. I had thought that the GOP would come to its senses concerning supporting Trump (and especially Moore), but I was wrong. I can't help but wonder what's going to happen if Trump (and possibly Pence) gets impeached and removed from office - will there be an armed uprising by Trump supporters? I honestly can't discount that possibility.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
will there be an armed uprising by Trump supporters? I honestly can't discount that possibility.
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Actually you aren't off very much at all. I work for a very conservative organization and they were ready to buy guns and march on Washington if Hillary won the election. Last night I was reading someone's comment on here and they were poking fun at Trump's 2020 Democratic challenger. Basically asking people who they thought the Democratic Unicorn was going to be. Who was going to defeat the almighty Trump in battle? No one can!!! These people don't want Trump to leave, and if Moore wins, it will be reaffirm everything they believe in and they will feel emboldened enough to try keep Trump in office as long as possible!!
 
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This leads me to believe that Moore's time before the Senate Ethics Committee may not be the slam-dunk pass, that I thought it might be.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
He must be one of the Republicans who actually remember what the party of Reagan stood for (I voted for him, remember). As much as I beat up on Reagan for the disaster of supply-side economics, he would never - ever - have tolerated someone like Roy Moore being in the GOP, much less supported him for Congress. And Reagan would have outright rejected Trump.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen between now and 2020. I had thought that the GOP would come to its senses concerning supporting Trump (and especially Moore), but I was wrong. I can't help but wonder what's going to happen if Trump (and possibly Pence) gets impeached and removed from office - will there be an armed uprising by Trump supporters? I honestly can't discount that possibility.
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I bought stock in tiki torches safe in the assumption that the rubes wouldn't figure out they were Polynesian.
 
NeverTrumpGOP said:
Actually you aren't off very much at all. I work for a very conservative organization and they were ready to buy guns and march on Washington if Hillary won the election. Last night I was reading someone's comment on here and they were poking fun at Trump's 2020 Democratic challenger. Basically asking people who they thought the Democratic Unicorn was going to be. Who was going to defeat the almighty Trump in battle? No one can!!! These people don't want Trump to leave, and if Moore wins, it will be reaffirm everything they believe in and they will feel emboldened enough to try keep Trump in office as long as possible!!
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I find this statement to be rich in hyperbole! March with guns, really?
 
Glen Contrarian said:
He must be one of the Republicans who actually remember what the party of Reagan stood for (I voted for him, remember).
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I don't doubt that he, and you, support Ronald Reagan. Throwing integrity to the wind, his administration armed and training terrorists, blurred the lines between religion and politics, supported corrupt bailouts of the Savings and Loans, disgracing our country before the international world court, and championed the corruption of the military/industrial complex. People like Ronald Reagan epitomize the decay in American politics of the last 30 years.

Without a shadow of a doubt I believe that you long for the corruption of the Reagan administration.
 
Fenton Lum said:
I bought stock in tiki torches safe in the assumption that the rubes wouldn't figure out they were Polynesian.
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I heard Pier 1 imports stock peaked around the time of the Charlottesville ‘Rally.’
 
Chomsky said:
This leads me to believe that Moore's time before the Senate Ethics Committee may not be the slam-dunk pass, that I thought it might be.
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The U.S. treasury has paid out more than 17 million dollars as part of a slush fund to sexual assault victims as a result of inappropriate behavior of members of Congress. Many of those members are still serving. Before even thinking about starting some crap with more, the ethics committee should investigate the people still in office right now.

For example...the people might choose Moore, warts and all knowing his history. There are member in Congress right now that are serving and people don't know the details of what they have done. Start there, with those people currently serving.
 
reinoe said:
I don't doubt that he, and you, support Ronald Reagan. Throwing integrity to the wind, his administration armed and training terrorists, blurred the lines between religion and politics, supported corrupt bailouts of the Savings and Loans, disgracing our country before the international world court, and championed the corruption of the military/industrial complex. People like Ronald Reagan epitomize the decay in American politics of the last 30 years.

Without a shadow of a doubt I believe that you long for the corruption of the Reagan administration.
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I have often stated that Reagan did two major things right in his time in office: he won the Cold War, and he restored the military's morale from its post-Vietnam funk (yeah, that is what he did). Oh, and there was the Reagan amnesty for illegals. Other than those things, Reagan did not do much that was right. As I said, his economic policy was a disaster. There's Iran-Contra. There's his dog-whistle politics reaching out to Southern racists (his states-rights speech in Philadelphia, MS).

But you know what? I still hold him as one of the five best presidents ever. Why? Because he won the Cold War without it turning hot. The Cold War was without exception the most dangerous time in all human history...and he got us through it to the point where the USSR was falling apart by the time he left office...and regardless of what you may think, the one in charge gets all the blame and all the credit for what happens on his watch. That's why Reagan, for all the crappiness of his presidency, gets the credit for winning the Cold War...

...and it is for that reason and that reason alone I hold him as one of our five best presidents ever, because he got us through the most dangerous time in human history without it turning into a global thermonuclear exchange. Other than that, he was not a good president by any means. So do NOT claim that I somehow "long for the corruption of the Reagan administration" - I don't. I left the GOP because of Iran-Contra, because of the rise of the right-wing pundits and the Religious Right that had become kingmakers within the GOP. I left because of the corruption that I saw in the GOP.

So stop assuming, willya? Instead, consider that maybe, just maybe people might not be wrong if they have opinions that aren't the same as yours.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
But you know what? I still hold him as one of the five best presidents ever. Why? Because he won the Cold War without it turning hot. The Cold War was without exception the most dangerous time in all human history...and he got us through it to the point where the USSR was falling apart by the time he left office.
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As you said yourself, Reagan got in at the time the USSR was falling apart... so why do you give him the credit for ending it? The real threat of a hot war would have been under Eisenhower or JFK.
 
Rexedgar said:
I find this statement to be rich in hyperbole! March with guns, really?
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Would they have actually done so? Probably not...but I've seen people make such claims myself. Why the heck do you think the Right was so supportive of the Bundys when they were pointing firearms at the federal agents who came to get them to stop breaking federal law? And if the Bundys had been black, or had been immigrants, do you think the Right would have been so supportive of them?
 
"I'd rather see the Republican win, but I'd rather see a Republican write-in. I couldn't vote for Roy Moore. I didn't vote for Roy Moore,"
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Pushing fantasy does not help anyone.....trying have it both ways is more of what America is increasingly rejecting, the purveyors of mush dont help their cause by producing more of it...."I want a Republican but I cant vote for the Republican that the Republican process has advanced as our man"....Well Sir, if you have that little faith in the Republican Party then maybe you should leave.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
He must be one of the Republicans who actually remember what the party of Reagan stood for (I voted for him, remember). As much as I beat up on Reagan for the disaster of supply-side economics, he would never - ever - have tolerated someone like Roy Moore being in the GOP, much less supported him for Congress. And Reagan would have outright rejected Trump.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen between now and 2020. I had thought that the GOP would come to its senses concerning supporting Trump (and especially Moore), but I was wrong. I can't help but wonder what's going to happen if Trump (and possibly Pence) gets impeached and removed from office - will there be an armed uprising by Trump supporters? I honestly can't discount that possibility.
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I voted for Reagan's first term.

It took a lot of years, decades actually, to realize the extreme damage his economic and drug policies caused and continue to cause the country (just as it will take many years to realize the damage of Trump and the Trump tax reform).

But I believe you are right in that I bolded. Reagan struck me as someone who was cognizant of the decorum and respect required of the office. Obama strikes me similarly. Clinton - either one - and Trump, do not. Especially Trump.

The biggest problem with Trump thoughis in dealing with his followers. They are my fellow Americans, and I want to respect them. They are indeed my equals, my peers, my fellow Americans as the name implies! But many just seem to want to tear everything down, including our democratic institutions. And it's getting harder and harder to respect that as "political differences".
 
Glen Contrarian said:
I have often stated that Reagan did two major things right in his time in office: he won the Cold War, and he restored the military's morale from its post-Vietnam funk (yeah, that is what he did). Oh, and there was the Reagan amnesty for illegals. Other than those things, Reagan did not do much that was right. As I said, his economic policy was a disaster. There's Iran-Contra. There's his dog-whistle politics reaching out to Southern racists (his states-rights speech in Philadelphia, MS).

But you know what? I still hold him as one of the five best presidents ever. Why? Because he won the Cold War without it turning hot. The Cold War was without exception the most dangerous time in all human history...and he got us through it to the point where the USSR was falling apart by the time he left office...and regardless of what you may think, the one in charge gets all the blame and all the credit for what happens on his watch. That's why Reagan, for all the crappiness of his presidency, gets the credit for winning the Cold War...

...and it is for that reason and that reason alone I hold him as one of our five best presidents ever, because he got us through the most dangerous time in human history without it turning into a global thermonuclear exchange. Other than that, he was not a good president by any means. So do NOT claim that I somehow "long for the corruption of the Reagan administration" - I don't. I left the GOP because of Iran-Contra, because of the rise of the right-wing pundits and the Religious Right that had become kingmakers within the GOP. I left because of the corruption that I saw in the GOP.

So stop assuming, willya? Instead, consider that maybe, just maybe people might not be wrong if they have opinions that aren't the same as yours.
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Your post begs the question: If R. Reagan was a top five, who are your other four?
 
Geoist said:
As you said yourself, Reagan got in at the time the USSR was falling apart... so why do you give him the credit for ending it? The real threat of a hot war would have been under Eisenhower or JFK.
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Which American president gets the credit for America winning in WWII? Truman? Or FDR, who died several months before either Germany or Japan was defeated? It's the same principle when it comes to Reagan and the fall of the USSR - he gets the credit for winning it. Eisenhower and JFK kept us safe during their presidencies, but they did not win it - Reagan did.

Again, don't think for a moment that I hold Reagan in high opinion - I don't, not for a moment. But I must give credit where credit is due. For instance, Hitler is rightly credited with having the autobahn - the world's first freeway system - built, and he got Germany back on its feet economically. That doesn't mean that he was a good chancellor. Look at Trump - I utterly despise him, but he does get credit for refusing to allow the GOP to close the Congressional Ethics Office on his first day as president. He is not the worst president we've had (so far) - and I sincerely hope he won't be our worst president - but he is certainly the least capable and least intelligent president we've ever had...but he has done a couple things that are good and right.

Give credit where credit is due...but giving credit to someone for accomplishing a thing is not the same as passing judgement on that person's overall performance on the job. It is only giving objective credit (or blame) for one event or set of events. That's all.
 
reinoe said:
The U.S. treasury has paid out more than 17 million dollars as part of a slush fund to sexual assault victims as a result of inappropriate behavior of members of Congress. Many of those members are still serving. Before even thinking about starting some crap with more, the ethics committee should investigate the people still in office right now.

For example...the people might choose Moore, warts and all knowing his history. There are member in Congress right now that are serving and people don't know the details of what they have done. Start there, with those people currently serving.
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I can't argue with that (congressional misconduct), because it's true.

It seems it's starting to get addressed, but yeah I have little faith. Apparently in Congress, and only in Congress, do the accusers automatically receive gag-orders as the go into the process of making an allegation! WTH?

But this still has nothing to do with Moore's culpability. Hang him too, if the investigations shows a preponderance of evidence. And ditto for Trump.
 
Rexedgar said:
Your post begs the question: If R. Reagan was a top five, who are your other four?
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1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. FDR
4. Obama

Yes, I DO hold Obama as being our fourth-best president. He took over with our economy in free-fall, during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression (and it could have been even worse), AND during two of the longest wars in our nation's history - both of which were increasingly unpopular, AND let's not forget our economy lost 700K+ jobs in January 2009. By the time Obama was finished, we had had by far the longest stretch of positive private-sector job growth (every month since September of 2010) in our nation's entire history...

...and he did all that against the greatest degree of political opposition faced by any president since Lincoln. And there was much more he accomplished, but the above should suffice.

I can think of no other president (other than those top three) who accomplished as much as Obama did while facing worse opposition. That's why he belongs at #4 on the list.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Which American president gets the credit for America winning in WWII? Truman? Or FDR, who died several months before either Germany or Japan was defeated? It's the same principle when it comes to Reagan and the fall of the USSR - he gets the credit for winning it. Eisenhower and JFK kept us safe during their presidencies, but they did not win it - Reagan did.

Again, don't think for a moment that I hold Reagan in high opinion - I don't, not for a moment. But I must give credit where credit is due. For instance, Hitler is rightly credited with having the autobahn - the world's first freeway system - built, and he got Germany back on its feet economically. That doesn't mean that he was a good chancellor. Look at Trump - I utterly despise him, but he does get credit for refusing to allow the GOP to close the Congressional Ethics Office on his first day as president. He is not the worst president we've had (so far) - and I sincerely hope he won't be our worst president - but he is certainly the least capable and least intelligent president we've ever had...but he has done a couple things that are good and right.

Give credit where credit is due...but giving credit to someone for accomplishing a thing is not the same as passing judgement on that person's overall performance on the job. It is only giving objective credit (or blame) for one event or set of events. That's all.
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Huh?

I wasn't aware.

Alright, I suppose I can add that to his very tiny pile of good deeds. Though they are ridiculously overshadowed by his pile of bad, with the tax cuts being perhaps most prominent.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Which American president gets the credit for America winning in WWII? Truman? Or FDR, who died several months before either Germany or Japan was defeated? It's the same principle when it comes to Reagan and the fall of the USSR - he gets the credit for winning it. Eisenhower and JFK kept us safe during their presidencies, but they did not win it - Reagan did.
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I don't really know anyone who credits Truman more than FDR for the Allies winning WWII.

Maybe he gets the credit because it is easy to credit the guy who was in office when the opposing super-power fell. Much easier than analyzing the complexity of Eastern European society/economics. Does Reagan get credit for arming the Mujahideen? Does he get credit for the Polish protests? Does he get credit for Gorbachev being a moderate compared to his predecessors?

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, folks, and I more often than not agree with you Glen, but the whole "Reagan won the Cold War" claim is, to me, a very simplistic perspective.

Again, don't think for a moment that I hold Reagan in high opinion - I don't, not for a moment. But I must give credit where credit is due. For instance, Hitler is rightly credited with having the autobahn - the world's first freeway system - built, and he got Germany back on its feet economically.
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It is not that I don't believe in giving credit where its due, its just I am hard-pressed to find where exactly Reagan did anything, other than give a stirring speech, that really caused the fall of the USSR.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
I have often stated that Reagan did two major things right in his time in office: he won the Cold War, and he restored the military's morale from its post-Vietnam funk (yeah, that is what he did). Oh, and there was the Reagan amnesty for illegals. Other than those things, Reagan did not do much that was right. As I said, his economic policy was a disaster. There's Iran-Contra. There's his dog-whistle politics reaching out to Southern racists (his states-rights speech in Philadelphia, MS).

But you know what? I still hold him as one of the five best presidents ever. Why? Because he won the Cold War without it turning hot. The Cold War was without exception the most dangerous time in all human history...and he got us through it to the point where the USSR was falling apart by the time he left office...and regardless of what you may think, the one in charge gets all the blame and all the credit for what happens on his watch. That's why Reagan, for all the crappiness of his presidency, gets the credit for winning the Cold War...

...and it is for that reason and that reason alone I hold him as one of our five best presidents ever, because he got us through the most dangerous time in human history without it turning into a global thermonuclear exchange. Other than that, he was not a good president by any means. So do NOT claim that I somehow "long for the corruption of the Reagan administration" - I don't. I left the GOP because of Iran-Contra, because of the rise of the right-wing pundits and the Religious Right that had become kingmakers within the GOP. I left because of the corruption that I saw in the GOP.

So stop assuming, willya? Instead, consider that maybe, just maybe people might not be wrong if they have opinions that aren't the same as yours.
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That is some of the most ridiculous revisionist history I've ever seen...

Ostensibly...

The Supreme Soviet recognized the end of the Soviet union in December of 1991 and all soviet operations ended that year, when "Russia" took over.
Lech Walesa became president in December of 1990
The Reunification of Germany happened in October of 1990
The East German Secret Police, the Stasi, ended in January 1990.
The Tianenmen Square riots also happened in june 1989
Yugoslavia dissolved in june, 1990
The Berlin Wall fell in November of 1989


Any one of these monumental events could symbolize the end of the Cold war and they all happened after Reagan left office. I challenge you to find anything even remotely as significant that happened during Reagan's presidency. The mental gymnastics that the establishment has gone through in order to excuse Reagan's failures in office are monumental. That liberals are coming out of the woodwork to give rave reviews to Reagan and Bush of all people, shows me that Trump is definitely on the right track. When the people who are directly responsible for this nations failures are the ones having a temper tantrum about Trump then that just means he's on the right track.
 
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