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Thread: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

  1. #21
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    Your post begs the question: If R. Reagan was a top five, who are your other four?
    1. Lincoln
    2. Washington
    3. FDR
    4. Obama

    Yes, I DO hold Obama as being our fourth-best president. He took over with our economy in free-fall, during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression (and it could have been even worse), AND during two of the longest wars in our nation's history - both of which were increasingly unpopular, AND let's not forget our economy lost 700K+ jobs in January 2009. By the time Obama was finished, we had had by far the longest stretch of positive private-sector job growth (every month since September of 2010) in our nation's entire history...

    ...and he did all that against the greatest degree of political opposition faced by any president since Lincoln. And there was much more he accomplished, but the above should suffice.

    I can think of no other president (other than those top three) who accomplished as much as Obama did while facing worse opposition. That's why he belongs at #4 on the list.
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Which American president gets the credit for America winning in WWII? Truman? Or FDR, who died several months before either Germany or Japan was defeated? It's the same principle when it comes to Reagan and the fall of the USSR - he gets the credit for winning it. Eisenhower and JFK kept us safe during their presidencies, but they did not win it - Reagan did.

    Again, don't think for a moment that I hold Reagan in high opinion - I don't, not for a moment. But I must give credit where credit is due. For instance, Hitler is rightly credited with having the autobahn - the world's first freeway system - built, and he got Germany back on its feet economically. That doesn't mean that he was a good chancellor. Look at Trump - I utterly despise him, but he does get credit for refusing to allow the GOP to close the Congressional Ethics Office on his first day as president. He is not the worst president we've had (so far) - and I sincerely hope he won't be our worst president - but he is certainly the least capable and least intelligent president we've ever had...but he has done a couple things that are good and right.

    Give credit where credit is due...but giving credit to someone for accomplishing a thing is not the same as passing judgement on that person's overall performance on the job. It is only giving objective credit (or blame) for one event or set of events. That's all.
    Huh?

    I wasn't aware.

    Alright, I suppose I can add that to his very tiny pile of good deeds. Though they are ridiculously overshadowed by his pile of bad, with the tax cuts being perhaps most prominent.
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Which American president gets the credit for America winning in WWII? Truman? Or FDR, who died several months before either Germany or Japan was defeated? It's the same principle when it comes to Reagan and the fall of the USSR - he gets the credit for winning it. Eisenhower and JFK kept us safe during their presidencies, but they did not win it - Reagan did.
    I don't really know anyone who credits Truman more than FDR for the Allies winning WWII.

    Maybe he gets the credit because it is easy to credit the guy who was in office when the opposing super-power fell. Much easier than analyzing the complexity of Eastern European society/economics. Does Reagan get credit for arming the Mujahideen? Does he get credit for the Polish protests? Does he get credit for Gorbachev being a moderate compared to his predecessors?

    Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, folks, and I more often than not agree with you Glen, but the whole "Reagan won the Cold War" claim is, to me, a very simplistic perspective.

    Again, don't think for a moment that I hold Reagan in high opinion - I don't, not for a moment. But I must give credit where credit is due. For instance, Hitler is rightly credited with having the autobahn - the world's first freeway system - built, and he got Germany back on its feet economically.
    It is not that I don't believe in giving credit where its due, its just I am hard-pressed to find where exactly Reagan did anything, other than give a stirring speech, that really caused the fall of the USSR.
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    1. Lincoln
    2. Washington
    3. FDR
    4. Obama
    Eisenhower?
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    I have often stated that Reagan did two major things right in his time in office: he won the Cold War, and he restored the military's morale from its post-Vietnam funk (yeah, that is what he did). Oh, and there was the Reagan amnesty for illegals. Other than those things, Reagan did not do much that was right. As I said, his economic policy was a disaster. There's Iran-Contra. There's his dog-whistle politics reaching out to Southern racists (his states-rights speech in Philadelphia, MS).

    But you know what? I still hold him as one of the five best presidents ever. Why? Because he won the Cold War without it turning hot. The Cold War was without exception the most dangerous time in all human history...and he got us through it to the point where the USSR was falling apart by the time he left office...and regardless of what you may think, the one in charge gets all the blame and all the credit for what happens on his watch. That's why Reagan, for all the crappiness of his presidency, gets the credit for winning the Cold War...

    ...and it is for that reason and that reason alone I hold him as one of our five best presidents ever, because he got us through the most dangerous time in human history without it turning into a global thermonuclear exchange. Other than that, he was not a good president by any means. So do NOT claim that I somehow "long for the corruption of the Reagan administration" - I don't. I left the GOP because of Iran-Contra, because of the rise of the right-wing pundits and the Religious Right that had become kingmakers within the GOP. I left because of the corruption that I saw in the GOP.

    So stop assuming, willya? Instead, consider that maybe, just maybe people might not be wrong if they have opinions that aren't the same as yours.
    That is some of the most ridiculous revisionist history I've ever seen...

    Ostensibly...

    The Supreme Soviet recognized the end of the Soviet union in December of 1991 and all soviet operations ended that year, when "Russia" took over.
    Lech Walesa became president in December of 1990
    The Reunification of Germany happened in October of 1990
    The East German Secret Police, the Stasi, ended in January 1990.
    The Tianenmen Square riots also happened in june 1989
    Yugoslavia dissolved in june, 1990
    The Berlin Wall fell in November of 1989


    Any one of these monumental events could symbolize the end of the Cold war and they all happened after Reagan left office. I challenge you to find anything even remotely as significant that happened during Reagan's presidency. The mental gymnastics that the establishment has gone through in order to excuse Reagan's failures in office are monumental. That liberals are coming out of the woodwork to give rave reviews to Reagan and Bush of all people, shows me that Trump is definitely on the right track. When the people who are directly responsible for this nations failures are the ones having a temper tantrum about Trump then that just means he's on the right track.
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    I don't really know anyone who credits Truman more than FDR for the Allies winning WWII.

    Maybe he gets the credit because it is easy to credit the guy who was in office when the opposing super-power fell. Much easier than analyzing the complexity of Eastern European society/economics. Does Reagan get credit for arming the Mujahideen? Does he get credit for the Polish protests? Does he get credit for Gorbachev being a moderate compared to his predecessors?

    Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, folks, and I more often than not agree with you Glen, but the whole "Reagan won the Cold War" claim is, to me, a very simplistic perspective.



    It is not that I don't believe in giving credit where its due, its just I am hard-pressed to find where exactly Reagan did anything, other than give a stirring speech, that really caused the fall of the USSR.
    I wish Winston Churchill had been able to exert more influence on FDR in regard to the Soviet Union’s intentions after WW2. Too much territory was ceded and existed behind the “Iron Curtain” until the late 1980’s.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    A man with principles. Sadly many in the Party of Lincoln have sold themselves out.
    Yeah. He believed in arming and training terrorists and placing landmines throughout the countryside of Nicaragua. Reagan is directly and indirectly responsible for the death of thousands and the suffering of millions. Another liberal coming out of the woodwork to show their support for terrorism because those are the principles many establishment liberals and the GOP long for.
    Trump Attacked A Syrian Airfield. Trump will be a one-term president.

  8. #28
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Huh?

    I wasn't aware.

    Alright, I suppose I can add that to his very tiny pile of good deeds. Though they are ridiculously overshadowed by his pile of bad, with the tax cuts being perhaps most prominent.
    I am in complete agreement with you. And I think Barney the Dinosaur - the purple one, not the former congressman - would be a better representative of America to the world than Trump is.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #29
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    I don't really know anyone who credits Truman more than FDR for the Allies winning WWII.

    Maybe he gets the credit because it is easy to credit the guy who was in office when the opposing super-power fell. Much easier than analyzing the complexity of Eastern European society/economics. Does Reagan get credit for arming the Mujahideen? Does he get credit for the Polish protests? Does he get credit for Gorbachev being a moderate compared to his predecessors?

    Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, folks, and I more often than not agree with you Glen, but the whole "Reagan won the Cold War" claim is, to me, a very simplistic perspective.



    It is not that I don't believe in giving credit where its due, its just I am hard-pressed to find where exactly Reagan did anything, other than give a stirring speech, that really caused the fall of the USSR.
    It wasn't just his speeches. It was also his ramping up of our defense, which forced the USSR to keep up and placed them under great economic pressure. It was also his reaching out to the USSR (which may or may not have been sincere) on several occasions in diplomatic moves such as when he proposed developing "Star Wars" anti-missile defense - which he'd then share with the Soviets.

    There was more, but it boils down to this: the one in charge gets the credit and the blame for whatever happens on his watch. That's how it is with every unit in the military, and that's how it is with the commander-in-chief. Let me give an illustration: a captain's ship runs aground while he's getting a couple hours' sleep in his cabin at oh-dark-thirty. When he goes before the Board of Inquiry, he'll state that he was not in his rack, but was physically on watch on the bridge. He'll say, "I had the conn" when he obviously didn't.

    Now why would he say that when everyone present knows it's a lie? He says it because the captain of a ship is responsible for whatever happens on that ship, for all the actions by any crewmembers on that ship, even if he had had no direct influence at all. If the Navigator didn't make sure a qualified person was on watch, or didn't make sure the maps were up-to-date, it's the captain's fault for not making sure that the Navigator did his job. If a crewmember assaults someone while on liberty - whether stateside or overseas - it's the captain's fault for not ensuring that discipline was observed and upheld among the crew.

    Come to think of it, it's sorta like being a husband - it's all your fault, even if it isn't...because even if you didn't have anything to do with it happening, you weren't proactive enough to prevent it from happening.

    So that's why the captain gets all the credit and all the blame for whatever happens on his watch...and so it goes with the commander-in-chief of the Ship of State. And don't get me started on Plato's ship-of-state metaphor - it's very accurate, and not for the reasons you might think, but that takes a bit more typing.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #30
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    Re: Alabama Sen. Shelby: 'I couldn't vote for Roy Moore'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    I wish Winston Churchill had been able to exert more influence on FDR in regard to the Soviet Union’s intentions after WW2. Too much territory was ceded and existed behind the “Iron Curtain” until the late 1980’s.
    Churchill had feet of clay, too (e.g. the famine in India) - but I feel that in the final analysis, he was the greatest world leader of the 20th century. It's not hard to guess what his opinion of Trump would be.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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