I officially live in the twilight zone

justabubba said:

your approach would be just as 'useful' when evaluating the services of a gerontologist
assuming if any patients died, it was only because of the inadequacy of the physician

Click to expand...

What I'm suggesting is the kind of quality improvement review that goes on in any organization that is seeking to improve the outcome of its efforts.

Based on historical statistics, construct a process that seems best to achieve a better result. Always assume that improvement is possible.

Follow the process.

Check the result(s) and determine which part(s) of the process need to be improved and how.

Implement the improvements and start again.

Continuously improve the processes.

I'm fairly certain that the medical industry uses various forms of process control. I'm fairly certain that fatality rates are one of the metrics they measure.

In all quality improvement processes, the key to any improvement is this: If it can't be measured, it can't be managed.

Make all decisions based on data. The customer defines quality. We are all on one team. That last point is lacking in many for profit efforts.

These are the three corners of a pyramid that will produce quality results. In the three points above, the term "customer" refers to anyone who is the next person in line. If my job is assembling statistics to be reviewed and never reaches a purchaser of anything, my "Customer" is the person or team that reviews those statistics. If my efforts are producing an unintelligible jumble of numbers, it is the job of my customer to tell me that and let me know what they would like to see to make this more understandable.

In the case of education, the educator needs to receive an understandable statement of the quality of the students' understanding of the course material. If that understanding is lacking, then the process to deliver understanding must be modified to improve the understanding.

Helix said:

so are most of the countries ahead of us sabotaging their public schools in order to make the private schools look better?



i've offered a solution. i don't agree that yours is the better of the two.

Click to expand...

I think that I am proposing a system of continuous quality improvement and you are proposing doubling down on a system that is not achieving optimum results.

I don't know and don't care if the other systems are trying to sabotage anything. What seems apparent is that the education they are delivering is of a higher quality than ours. Also apparent is that pretty recently, a generation or so ago, ours was better and is now falling behind.

What changed?

Helix said:

i've already explained the unintended consequences of pay by score which make it a non-viable proposal. we need to change the way courses are set up, and we also need to remove the paywall between the student and higher education. we're pricing ourselves into the toilet in that department.

Click to expand...

Well, like medical services, when the spigot of cash is held wide open by artificial means, the prices charged expand to soak up all the cash.

In medical services not covered by the unlimited cash flow of insurance funds, the cost are constantly reducing, the quality is constantly improving and the access is constantly expanding. Lasik and implants come to mind.

In college education, before the advent of endlessly expanding sources of free money to pay for it, the costs were pretty stable. Now, the cost are inflating at about the rate of medical costs.

Do you think the cost benefit equation in these two areas are not related to the flow of free money to support them?

The cost required to produce anything expands to consume the funds available to pay for that product.

code1211 said:

I think that I am proposing a system of continuous quality improvement and you are proposing doubling down on a system that is not achieving optimum results.

Click to expand...

no, i'm drawing on my experience growing up in an education family to propose fixes that might actually help.

code1211 said:

I don't know and don't care if the other systems are trying to sabotage anything. What seems apparent is that the education they are delivering is of a higher quality than ours. Also apparent is that pretty recently, a generation or so ago, ours was better and is now falling behind.

Click to expand...

you care enough about other systems to use them as examples of how we could do better. so are most of them sabotaging their public schools in order to make private schools look better or not?

code1211 said:

What changed?

Click to expand...

well, a generation or two ago, our public school system was well funded and college was much more affordable. i doubt it's as simple as that, though. the developing world is, by definition, developing, and just because you're on top today doesn't mean that you'll be on top in ten or twenty years. that's why it's so critical that we focus on educating the kids in our society and fixing problems in our educational system.

code1211 said:

Well, like medical services, when the spigot of cash is held wide open by artificial means, the prices charged expand to soak up all the cash.

In medical services not covered by the unlimited cash flow of insurance funds, the cost are constantly reducing, the quality is constantly improving and the access is constantly expanding. Lasik and implants come to mind.

Click to expand...

glad that you brought that up.



our health care system is more poorly designed and inefficient than our educational system, and the rest of the first world is doing that better, as well.

code1211 said:

In college education, before the advent of endlessly expanding sources of free money to pay for it, the costs were pretty stable. Now, the cost are inflating at about the rate of medical costs.

Do you think the cost benefit equation in these two areas are not related to the flow of free money to support them?

The cost required to produce anything expands to consume the funds available to pay for that product.

Click to expand...

i'd say that health care is an essential service with inelastic demand. a market system doesn't work well in that situation. it's kind of like someone selling water after a natural disaster. what are you going to do, not buy it?

similarly, if you're young right now and you don't go to college / post secondary training, your job is likely to suck while paying you jack ****. this is true now more than ever, and the price reflects that fact. they charge what they can because they can. this is how markets work. one solution is debt free access to public universities that meet certain guidelines, IMO. i would support requiring completion of the degree as a condition. if you go there and just dick around and quit or flunk out, you pay back the financial aid. that seems a fair compromise. also, no more dropping out of high school. that does exactly nothing good for society, and a sixteen year old should not be given the option to pickle his or her life by making that choice. and there's this :



so when they drop out, we all pay. when they can't afford college, we all pay. i'd rather make the investment on the front end.

Helix said:

no, i'm drawing on my experience growing up in an education family to propose fixes that might actually help.



you care enough about other systems to use them as examples of how we could do better. so are most of them sabotaging their public schools in order to make private schools look better or not?



well, a generation or two ago, our public school system was well funded and college was much more affordable. i doubt it's as simple as that, though. the developing world is, by definition, developing, and just because you're on top today doesn't mean that you'll be on top in ten or twenty years. that's why it's so critical that we focus on educating the kids in our society and fixing problems in our educational system.

Click to expand...

Perhaps we should focus on discovering what techniques and approaches are used by those that are winning.

Following that, we need to change in our system to achieve the results they are achieving. The idea that change is going to happen is fine and dandy. However, improvement should be a part of that.

We spend plenty on education. What we spend and what we buy seem to be at odds.

U.S. education spending tops global list, study shows - CBS News

<snip>
WASHINGTON The United States spends more than other developed nations on its students' education each year, with parents and private foundations picking up more of the costs, an international survey released Tuesday found.
<snip>
That sum inched past some developed countries and far surpassed others. Switzerland's total spending per student was $14,922 while Mexico averaged $2,993 in 2010. The average OECD nation spent $9,313 per young person.

As a share of its economy, the United States spent more than the average country in the survey. In 2010, the United States spent 7.3 percent of its gross domestic product on education, compared with the 6.3 percent average of other OECD countries. Denmark topped the list on that measure with 8 percent of its gross domestic product going toward education.
<snip>

Helix said:

glad that you brought that up.

View attachment 67198554

our health care system is more poorly designed and inefficient than our educational system, and the rest of the first world is doing that better, as well.



i'd say that health care is an essential service with inelastic demand. a market system doesn't work well in that situation. it's kind of like someone selling water after a natural disaster. what are you going to do, not buy it?

similarly, if you're young right now and you don't go to college / post secondary training, your job is likely to suck while paying you jack ****. this is true now more than ever, and the price reflects that fact. they charge what they can because they can. this is how markets work. one solution is debt free access to public universities that meet certain guidelines, IMO. i would support requiring completion of the degree as a condition. if you go there and just dick around and quit or flunk out, you pay back the financial aid. that seems a fair compromise. also, no more dropping out of high school. that does exactly nothing good for society, and a sixteen year old should not be given the option to pickle his or her life by making that choice. and there's this :

View attachment 67198556

so when they drop out, we all pay. when they can't afford college, we all pay. i'd rather make the investment on the front end.

Click to expand...

That (bolded above) has to be the most ridiculous plan I have seen (so far). Those that financially benefit from college do not pay for that assistance but those that try and fail (thus lacking the means?) must pay. Would it not make far more sense to tax those that can afford to repay their college education costs than those that cannot?

code1211 said:

Perhaps we should focus on discovering what techniques and approaches are used by those that are winning.

Following that, we need to change in our system to achieve the results they are achieving. The idea that change is going to happen is fine and dandy. However, improvement should be a part of that.

We spend plenty on education. What we spend and what we buy seem to be at odds.

U.S. education spending tops global list, study shows - CBS News

<snip>
WASHINGTON The United States spends more than other developed nations on its students' education each year, with parents and private foundations picking up more of the costs, an international survey released Tuesday found.
<snip>
That sum inched past some developed countries and far surpassed others. Switzerland's total spending per student was $14,922 while Mexico averaged $2,993 in 2010. The average OECD nation spent $9,313 per young person.

As a share of its economy, the United States spent more than the average country in the survey. In 2010, the United States spent 7.3 percent of its gross domestic product on education, compared with the 6.3 percent average of other OECD countries. Denmark topped the list on that measure with 8 percent of its gross domestic product going toward education.
<snip>

Click to expand...

we both agree that there's room for improvement. what we don't agree on is the solution. i don't think that pay by score will be a net benefit for the districts that need the most help, though. cutting their funding to promote private schools is also a no go.

ttwtt78640 said:

That (bolded above) has to be the most ridiculous plan I have seen (so far). Those that financially benefit from college do not pay for that assistance but those that try and fail (thus lacking the means?) must pay. Would it not make far more sense to tax those that can afford to repay their college education costs than those that cannot?

Click to expand...

i don't think so. i would remove the debt paywall for kids and require completion of the degree as a condition. i think that would do a lot of good, and would probably save some long term entitlement money.

Helix said:

glad that you brought that up.

View attachment 67198554

our health care system is more poorly designed and inefficient than our educational system, and the rest of the first world is doing that better, as well.



i'd say that health care is an essential service with inelastic demand. a market system doesn't work well in that situation. it's kind of like someone selling water after a natural disaster. what are you going to do, not buy it?

similarly, if you're young right now and you don't go to college / post secondary training, your job is likely to suck while paying you jack ****. this is true now more than ever, and the price reflects that fact. they charge what they can because they can. this is how markets work. one solution is debt free access to public universities that meet certain guidelines, IMO. i would support requiring completion of the degree as a condition. if you go there and just dick around and quit or flunk out, you pay back the financial aid. that seems a fair compromise. also, no more dropping out of high school. that does exactly nothing good for society, and a sixteen year old should not be given the option to pickle his or her life by making that choice. and there's this :

View attachment 67198556

so when they drop out, we all pay. when they can't afford college, we all pay. i'd rather make the investment on the front end.

Click to expand...

Life expectancy is an odd statistic that must be examined.

I don't know what metrics exactly were used in your graph. I do know that in one study on infant mortality in developed counties, ours was the worst. When studied more closely, problems with the stats emerged. In some countries if the infant was judged to be not savable, it was removed from the stats, DOA was not counted, etc. In the US, these infant deaths are counted. Obviously, infant deaths hit the averages for life expectancy pretty hard.

Also, Americans are fat and sedentary. This has nothing to do with the health care. If the guy is a fat couch potato that lives on Big Macs and French Fires, he's toast. Superior health care is needed just keep him on this side of the sod. Stress has an impact. We are, I have heard, a pretty stress filled society.

When the King of Saudi Arabia needs an operation, he comes here. that says something about the quality of care.

As far as a no cost college system, I don't really understand this. If college should be a part of the public school system, that's fine, but then, it should be a part of the public school system.

At that point we are right back to the processes and methodologies used to improve the outcomes.

The lack of jobs does not speak to education. It speaks to a national willingness to commit to job creation in a competitive world market. This requires the kind of leadership that sees beyond party affiliation to the outcome desired.

code1211 said:

Life expectancy is an odd statistic that must be examined.

I don't know what metrics exactly were used in your graph. I do know that in one study on infant mortality in developed counties, ours was the worst. When studied more closely, problems with the stats emerged. In some countries if the infant was judged to be not savable, it was removed from the stats, DOA was not counted, etc. In the US, these infant deaths are counted. Obviously, infant deaths hit the averages for life expectancy pretty hard.

Also, Americans are fat and sedentary. This has nothing to do with the health care. If the guy is a fat couch potato that lives on Big Macs and French Fires, he's toast. Superior health care is needed just keep him on this side of the sod. Stress has an impact. We are, I have heard, a pretty stress filled society.

When the King of Saudi Arabia needs an operation, he comes here. that says something about the quality of care.

Click to expand...

here's a good article on first world health care and how we rank :

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...t_sys_comparison_12_nations_intl_brief_v2.pdf

we do better in treating some types of cancer; albeit for a much higher price. as for the rest of it, i doubt that any other first world country would trade health care systems with us.

code1211 said:

As far as a no cost college system, I don't really understand this. If college should be a part of the public school system, that's fine, but then, it should be a part of the public school system.

At that point we are right back to the processes and methodologies used to improve the outcomes.

The lack of jobs does not speak to education. It speaks to a national willingness to commit to job creation in a competitive world market. This requires the kind of leadership that sees beyond party affiliation to the outcome desired.

Click to expand...

i think that debt free college / post secondary education should be the norm. we did that for high school a century ago, and now it's time to do the same for college / post secondary training.

code1211 said:

What I'm suggesting is the kind of quality improvement review that goes on in any organization that is seeking to improve the outcome of its efforts.

Based on historical statistics, construct a process that seems best to achieve a better result. Always assume that improvement is possible.

Follow the process.

Check the result(s) and determine which part(s) of the process need to be improved and how.

Implement the improvements and start again.

Continuously improve the processes.

I'm fairly certain that the medical industry uses various forms of process control. I'm fairly certain that fatality rates are one of the metrics they measure.

In all quality improvement processes, the key to any improvement is this: If it can't be measured, it can't be managed.

Make all decisions based on data. The customer defines quality. We are all on one team. That last point is lacking in many for profit efforts.

These are the three corners of a pyramid that will produce quality results. In the three points above, the term "customer" refers to anyone who is the next person in line. If my job is assembling statistics to be reviewed and never reaches a purchaser of anything, my "Customer" is the person or team that reviews those statistics. If my efforts are producing an unintelligible jumble of numbers, it is the job of my customer to tell me that and let me know what they would like to see to make this more understandable.

In the case of education, the educator needs to receive an understandable statement of the quality of the students' understanding of the course material. If that understanding is lacking, then the process to deliver understanding must be modified to improve the understanding.

Click to expand...

and you demonstrate the same miscalculation of so many educational administrators
you want to rely on reams of data to ferret out the then identified inefficiencies

but the problem is that you went to step 2, "do those things well", without first having checked off preliminary step 1: "DO THE RIGHT THINGS"

but i am delighted you chose to continue the example of the medical industry
however you failed to comment upon the example i used where a gerontologist is evaluated on the data points of the deaths of her patients
you would presume that the deaths were attributable to her poor performance, just as you would attribute a student's failure to the teacher's poor performance. but the reality is that gerontologist's patient, being of advanced age, may have died of natural causes, NOT the doctor's underperformance. and in the same way a teacher cannot be fairly measured by her student's advancement - or lack of it - because there are so many other factors that impact that outcome, which factors are outside the teacher's ability to control

is the poorly performing student someone who was positioned to succeed at the grade level to which he was placed for learning
is that student getting enough sleep
does that student have parental guidance and support
does that student have adequate supplies and clean clothes
is that student receiving adequate nourishment
is there something going on in that student's life that distracts him from learning
is that student facing mental/emotional/behavioral/medical challenges that prevent him from learning at the pace of others

that list could be much more extensive, but it illustrates some of the many factors that impede learning over which the teacher has no ability to address
and yet you would take your data and assign a performance evaluation for the teacher based on that student who is faced with such challenges as those above
your data points are unable to measure those outside influences that severely impact student performance
and thus, you would misrepresent the teacher's performance

Helix said:

here's a good article on first world health care and how we rank :

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...t_sys_comparison_12_nations_intl_brief_v2.pdf

we do better in treating some types of cancer; albeit for a much higher price. as for the rest of it, i doubt that any other first world country would trade health care systems with us.



i think that debt free college / post secondary education should be the norm. we did that for high school a century ago, and now it's time to do the same for college / post secondary training.

Click to expand...

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...t_sys_comparison_12_nations_intl_brief_v2.pdf
From your article:
<snip>
Abstract: The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) tracks and
reports on more than 1,200 health system measures across 34 industrialized countries. This
analysis concentrated on 2010 OECD health data for Australia, Canada, Denmark, France,
Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom,
and the United States. Health care spending in the U.S. towers over the other countries. The
U.S. has fewer hospital beds and physicians, and sees fewer hospital and physician visits, than
in most other countries. Prescription drug utilization, prices, and spending all appear to be
highest in the U.S., as does the supply, utilization, and price of diagnostic imaging. U.S. performance
on a limited set of quality measures is variable, ranking highly on five-year cancer
survival, middling on in-hospital case-specific mortality, and poorly on hospital admissions for
chronic conditions and amputations due to diabetes. Findings suggest opportunities for crossnational
learning to improve health system performance.
<snip>

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2226.html

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...the+population+of+the+countries+of+the+world?

The US has a population of about 324 million.

Sweden has a population of about 9 million.

Your article says Sweden has more doctors than the US.

According to the article I linked above that fact from your link is false. In the US, there are 2.45 doctors per 1000. In Sweden, 3.93 per 1000.

The multipliers would seem to undermine the fact at the base of the article.

Assuming the accuracy of the "facts", though, it states very clearly that the connection between money thrown at the system and and the quality of the product (patient care) are not joined.

I FEEL that the link between the quality of education and the dollars thrown at it are also not linked.

justabubba said:

and you demonstrate the same miscalculation of so many educational administrators
you want to rely on reams of data to ferret out the then identified inefficiencies

but the problem is that you went to step 2, "do those things well", without first having checked off preliminary step 1: "DO THE RIGHT THINGS"

but i am delighted you chose to continue the example of the medical industry
however you failed to comment upon the example i used where a gerontologist is evaluated on the data points of the deaths of her patients
you would presume that the deaths were attributable to her poor performance, just as you would attribute a student's failure to the teacher's poor performance. but the reality is that gerontologist's patient, being of advanced age, may have died of natural causes, NOT the doctor's underperformance. and in the same way a teacher cannot be fairly measured by her student's advancement - or lack of it - because there are so many other factors that impact that outcome, which factors are outside the teacher's ability to control

is the poorly performing student someone who was positioned to succeed at the grade level to which he was placed for learning
is that student getting enough sleep
does that student have parental guidance and support
does that student have adequate supplies and clean clothes
is that student receiving adequate nourishment
is there something going on in that student's life that distracts him from learning
is that student facing mental/emotional/behavioral/medical challenges that prevent him from learning at the pace of others

that list could be much more extensive, but it illustrates some of the many factors that impede learning over which the teacher has no ability to address
and yet you would take your data and assign a performance evaluation for the teacher based on that student who is faced with such challenges as those above
your data points are unable to measure those outside influences that severely impact student performance
and thus, you would misrepresent the teacher's performance

Click to expand...

Again, the teachers have designed the current system. It is they that would design the new system.

You are saying, I think, that it's impossible to measure the metrics that impact education.

If that is true, then it cannot be managed. You are free to give up as you apparently have.

If the Gerontologists are treating people who are dying, then the metrics of there performance should be judged apart from the folks who give physicals to athletes. I have friends who have overseen the care of their parents who have died simply of old age. The medical profession knows it cannot "save" the 95 year old person who is weakening. Enter the idea of the Hospice House. Therefore, curing the geriatric is not the goal of the care. Easing the pains of the inevitable becomes the goal and the metric to measure. Knowing what to measure is as important as measuring it.

That is why every process has both various steps and particular Key Success Indicators. If the KSI's are wrong, the experts in the processes identify these in order to further segment the process and enable the improvements in each sequence of activity.

Once you know what to measure, then measure it and improve it. This is not rocket science although it is critical to the successful application of rocket science to the engineering of the rocket.

Just because you find an entirely unrelated notion to throw up does not mean that you have solved anything. It only means you are being very creative in the rationalization of failure, not in the correction of the causes.

You seem to be saying that the students who are receiving superior education in other parts of the world live in some kind of Utopia. It is possible, I suppose, that the USA is a hell hole of disruptions for our children as compared to the countries producing superior results. It's also possible that the US is just about average or better. Wherever we place on your educational disruption scale, perhaps the approach to improve education is to minimize these disruptions. If the teachers have identified these disruptions, then it seems incumbent on them to create solutions to these impediments.

In Mississippi, a proposal in their legislature would have teachers grading the actions of parents as they relate to the child's education. This is something new to my understanding of the educational process and seems sorely needed. The parents' involvement seems essential to the education of the child. Is it THE answer? Taken by itself, probably not. Taken as a part of the whole system, it seems like it might be appropriate to identify it as a Key Success Indicator.

The point of process improvement is not to give up because improvement is really, really hard. The point is to identify the issues involved and create processes that achieve the results by overcoming any impediments.

If it can't be measured, it can't be managed.

code1211 said:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...t_sys_comparison_12_nations_intl_brief_v2.pdf
From your article:
<snip>
Abstract: The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) tracks and
reports on more than 1,200 health system measures across 34 industrialized countries. This
analysis concentrated on 2010 OECD health data for Australia, Canada, Denmark, France,
Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom,
and the United States. Health care spending in the U.S. towers over the other countries. The
U.S. has fewer hospital beds and physicians, and sees fewer hospital and physician visits, than
in most other countries. Prescription drug utilization, prices, and spending all appear to be
highest in the U.S., as does the supply, utilization, and price of diagnostic imaging. U.S. performance
on a limited set of quality measures is variable, ranking highly on five-year cancer
survival, middling on in-hospital case-specific mortality, and poorly on hospital admissions for
chronic conditions and amputations due to diabetes. Findings suggest opportunities for crossnational
learning to improve health system performance.
<snip>

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2226.html

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...the+population+of+the+countries+of+the+world?

The US has a population of about 324 million.

Sweden has a population of about 9 million.

Your article says Sweden has more doctors than the US.

According to the article I linked above that fact from your link is false. In the US, there are 2.45 doctors per 1000. In Sweden, 3.93 per 1000.

The multipliers would seem to undermine the fact at the base of the article.

Assuming the accuracy of the "facts", though, it states very clearly that the connection between money thrown at the system and and the quality of the product (patient care) are not joined.

I FEEL that the link between the quality of education and the dollars thrown at it are also not linked.

Click to expand...

i feel that no other first world country would voluntarily trade health care systems with us, and for very good reasons. if you can find one that would, though, i would fully support that trade.

Helix said:

i feel that no other first world country would voluntarily trade health care systems with us, and for very good reasons. if you can find one that would, though, i would fully support that trade.

Click to expand...

You must feel the same way about voluntarily trading educational systems which is what we are talking about.

You also must fully support that trade for exactly the same reasons.

code1211 said:

You must feel the same way about voluntarily trading educational systems which is what we are talking about.

You also must fully support that trade for exactly the same reasons.

Click to expand...

i don't have a problem with private schools. i don't support undercutting public schools on purpose as Republicans in my state have done, however. i'm also not thrilled with an extensive voucher system unless the local public school is failing despite the full backing of the state. i think it's important to keep a strong public school system. it's vastly more important to spend money on that than on sports teams, which my state also wastes boatloads of money on.

Helix said:

i don't have a problem with private schools. i don't support undercutting public schools on purpose as Republicans in my state have done, however. i'm also not thrilled with an extensive voucher system unless the local public school is failing despite the full backing of the state. i think it's important to keep a strong public school system. it's vastly more important to spend money on that than on sports teams, which my state also wastes boatloads of money on.

Click to expand...

In many cases, spending money on things, like a sports team, generates economic activity that supports construction by the private sector and use of facilities by the tournaments like national championships and conference championships.

In Indianapolis, the facilities for the Colts and the Pacers and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway have drawn literally millions of people all thousands of dollars each to use the various hotels, restaurants and even parking facilities and airports.

THIS kind of investment has positive outcomes.

Supporting failed policies made by those who are not striving for enhanced outcomes seems different.

code1211 said:

In many cases, spending money on things, like a sports team, generates economic activity that supports construction by the private sector and use of facilities by the tournaments like national championships and conference championships.

In Indianapolis, the facilities for the Colts and the Pacers and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway have drawn literally millions of people all thousands of dollars each to use the various hotels, restaurants and even parking facilities and airports.

THIS kind of investment has positive outcomes.

Supporting failed policies made by those who are not striving for enhanced outcomes seems different.

Click to expand...

it's more important to spend those resources on educating the kids. if the colts and pacers want to leave, **** them, and **** sportsball welfare in general. enough is enough.

Helix said:

it's more important to spend those resources on educating the kids. if the colts and pacers want to leave, **** them, and **** sportsball welfare in general. enough is enough.

Click to expand...

Simple economics.

If the city spends a fixed number of dollars on a sports facility and that facility generates commerce that in turn generates taxes that exceed the original outlay, that is a good investment.

If the amount spent on education is doubled or tripled and the outcome, the quality of the education delivered is degenerating, that seems to run counter to the goal.

I have no issue whatever with providing public education. What I take issue with is the declining quality vs. the rest of the world and increasing costs vs. the rest of the world. Also the lower wage rates for the private school teachers vs the higher wage rates for the public school teachers.

Again, if the public school teachers received higher pay and then produced better results, that would be a good thing. If the reverse is true, and it is, that seems to be cause for questioning the connection between higher pay for teachers and better results. Or, if higher pay is required for reasons that have absolutely no connection to the quality of the education delivered, then questioning the justification for higher pay also seems appropriate.

The system exists for only one reason that I can see and that is to educate kids. If the outcomes are falling, and they certainly seem to be, then questioning the system's structure, goals and processes seems to be demanded.

Any other organization that produces a product seeks improvement. Any improvement in complex endeavors is the result of talented people expending great effort to achieve a goal that is very difficult.

This goal seems to be very difficult indeed.

Until there is a strong link demonstrated that shows that higher teacher pay is needed for better educational results, I think questioning that link is very fair.

code1211 said:

Simple economics.

If the city spends a fixed number of dollars on a sports facility and that facility generates commerce that in turn generates taxes that exceed the original outlay, that is a good investment.

If the amount spent on education is doubled or tripled and the outcome, the quality of the education delivered is degenerating, that seems to run counter to the goal.

I have no issue whatever with providing public education. What I take issue with is the declining quality vs. the rest of the world and increasing costs vs. the rest of the world. Also the lower wage rates for the private school teachers vs the higher wage rates for the public school teachers.

Again, if the public school teachers received higher pay and then produced better results, that would be a good thing. If the reverse is true, and it is, that seems to be cause for questioning the connection between higher pay for teachers and better results. Or, if higher pay is required for reasons that have absolutely no connection to the quality of the education delivered, then questioning the justification for higher pay also seems appropriate.

The system exists for only one reason that I can see and that is to educate kids. If the outcomes are falling, and they certainly seem to be, then questioning the system's structure, goals and processes seems to be demanded.

Any other organization that produces a product seeks improvement. Any improvement in complex endeavors is the result of talented people expending great effort to achieve a goal that is very difficult.

This goal seems to be very difficult indeed.

Until there is a strong link demonstrated that shows that higher teacher pay is needed for better educational results, I think questioning that link is very fair.

Click to expand...

i've already outlined the flaws in the pay by score model. refer to earlier posts.

as for sportsball, the owners need to find a way to make their businesses viable without siphoning hundreds of millions of dollars from taxpayers. if that means hitting the road for another city, cool. sportsball is not an essential societal need. education is.

Helix said:

i've already outlined the flaws in the pay by score model. refer to earlier posts.

as for sportsball, the owners need to find a way to make their businesses viable without siphoning hundreds of millions of dollars from taxpayers. if that means hitting the road for another city, cool. sportsball is not an essential societal need. education is.

Click to expand...

You're missing the point.

A sports stadium that draws various attractions to a town including additional construction, revitalized downtown and vastly increased commerce pays for itseld with public taxation and increased employment at the various entertainment venues it supports.

There is also the whole payroll of the support staff in the stadium.

Not much different than college sports that are self supporting. The football program at Ohio State, as an example, generates much more revenue than is spent to support it.

What might be a good way to make American Schools the best in the world once again?

You have made it clear that money paid to teachers has nothing to do with the outcome.

What WILL improve the outcome?

code1211 said:

You're missing the point.

A sports stadium that draws various attractions to a town including additional construction, revitalized downtown and vastly increased commerce pays for itseld with public taxation and increased employment at the various entertainment venues it supports.

There is also the whole payroll of the support staff in the stadium.

Click to expand...

i'd rather the money be spent to educate our kids. i'm not convinced that funneling endless amounts of money into ball throwing is the best use of the money. mostly because it isn't.

code1211 said:

Not much different than college sports that are self supporting. The football program at Ohio State, as an example, generates much more revenue than is spent to support it.

What might be a good way to make American Schools the best in the world once again?

Click to expand...

i've already made some suggestions.

code1211 said:

You have made it clear that money paid to teachers has nothing to do with the outcome.

Click to expand...

incorrect. i pointed out the flaws in your "pay by score" proposal.

code1211 said:

What WILL improve the outcome?

Click to expand...

already addressed.