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My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

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CriticalThought

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Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.
 
A transgender woman need not be a "typical woman" in terms of social expectations. I expect many are not.
 
CriticalThought said:
So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.
Click to expand...

I'll assume that you're of the male gender just for demonstrative purposes. Could you, as a male, imagine living your life being considered and accepted by society as a whole as being female? Could you wear the clothes a woman wears or join all women team sports, could you apply for a job and check the box for gender as 'female'. In other words, could you imagine yourself living your entire life feeling entirely disconnected and naturally alien to every fiber of your emotional being as a human because you were born with male genitalia?

You have completely misinterpreted transsexuals. They are not "fixated at being the opposite sex", they are the opposite sex. They live their true gender in the same way you live yours, which happens to be male. If you were forced to live as a female you would not be happy because that's not who you are. They are making difficult social choices to live in their own personal identity, it's as simple as that. Gender doesn't always correspond with birth sex.
 
ecofarm said:
A transgender woman need not be a "typical woman" in terms of social expectations. I expect many are not.
Click to expand...

True. What is a "typical woman"?
 
HumblePi said:
I'll assume that you're of the male gender just for demonstrative purposes. Could you, as a male, imagine living your life being considered and accepted by society as a whole as being female? Could you wear the clothes a woman wears or join all women team sports, could you apply for a job and check the box for gender as 'female'. In other words, could you imagine yourself living your entire life feeling entirely disconnected and naturally alien to every fiber of your emotional being as a human because you were born with male genitalia?

You have completely misinterpreted transsexuals. They are not "fixated at being the opposite sex", they are the opposite sex. They live their true gender in the same way you live yours, which happens to be male. If you were forced to live as a female you would not be happy because that's not who you are. They are making difficult social choices to live in their own personal identity, it's as simple as that. Gender doesn't always correspond with birth sex.
Click to expand...

Could I adopt a whole new set of gender stereotypes? Yes. Wearing a dress or lipstick or shaving my legs or wearing high heels would not change who I am as a person. That stuff is a costume. My masculinity is a costume. We are all ascribing to gender specific stereotypes that are just cultural constructs. Would I emotionally identify with those things the same way a trans person would? Probably not. But there are men who are really hyped up on being masculine but that doesn't mean I would be comfortable that way either.

If true gender is what you feel then there are over 7 billion genders. You notice how the list of gender pronouns has been getting longer as time has gone on? That is because people are slowly becoming aware of how socially constructed the whole concept is.
 
CriticalThought said:
Could I adopt a whole new set of gender stereotypes? Yes. Wearing a dress or lipstick or shaving my legs or wearing high heels would not change who I am as a person. That stuff is a costume. My masculinity is a costume. We are all ascribing to gender specific stereotypes that are just cultural constructs. Would I emotionally identify with those things the same way a trans person would? Probably not. But there are men who are really hyped up on being masculine but that doesn't mean I would be comfortable that way either.

If true gender is what you feel then there are over 7 billion genders. You notice how the list of gender pronouns has been getting longer as time has gone on? That is because people are slowly becoming aware of how socially constructed the whole concept is.
Click to expand...

Would your gender identity change at all, for you, depending on what you wore or didnt wear? Or demonstrate to the world?
 
ecofarm said:
Female brain and male body. Obviously, the mind takes precedence over the body.
Click to expand...

What is a "female mind"? As I stated in my post, while there are neurological differences between the genders, they are not so significant as to be distinguishable from one another in just about any metric. What possible test could you give somebody that would discern whether their mind is male or female?

I would say your definition is proving my point. A trans person is making the decision that their mind is a particular gender based on the only thing they have to compare it to, the gender stereotypes constructed by their culture. A "female mind" is a mind that identifies with the things one's culture has denoted are feminine.
 
ecofarm said:
Biochemistry.
Click to expand...

If that were the case, then trans people would have no need to take hormones. They would already be present at the right levels. Please clarify or try again.

Also, if gender is simply brain chemistry, then would it not be easier and cheaper for trans people to take the hormones of their sex rather than the opposite sex?
 
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CriticalThought said:
Could I adopt a whole new set of gender stereotypes? Yes. Wearing a dress or lipstick or shaving my legs or wearing high heels would not change who I am as a person. That stuff is a costume. My masculinity is a costume. We are all ascribing to gender specific stereotypes that are just cultural constructs. Would I emotionally identify with those things the same way a trans person would? Probably not. But there are men who are really hyped up on being masculine but that doesn't mean I would be comfortable that way either.

If true gender is what you feel then there are over 7 billion genders. You notice how the list of gender pronouns has been getting longer as time has gone on? That is because people are slowly becoming aware of how socially constructed the whole concept is.
Click to expand...

Yes, dressing as a male is your 'costume' but you're comfortable wearing that assigned costume because it says 'I am a male'. If you were forced by society to wear heels and lipstick it would also feel like a costume but one that screams 'I am not this'. Your masculinity is not a costume at all, it is what you are, what you were meant to be. A person that's transsexual identifies with something other than the gender a doctor assignment them at birth.
 
HumblePi said:
Yes, dressing as a male is your 'costume' but you're comfortable wearing that assigned costume because it says 'I am a male'. If you were forced by society to wear heels and lipstick it would also feel like a costume but one that screams 'I am not this'. Your masculinity is not a costume at all, it is what you are, what you were meant to be. A person that's transsexual identifies with something other than the gender a doctor assignment them at birth.
Click to expand...

That is a pretty weak argument. There are no laws ascribing what I can wear. You are talking about social pressure and stigma. Those exist because there are a lot of people who value the gender normative stereotypes. There is now also social pressure and stigma related to the political correctness of not ascribing to gender normative stereotypes. Seems like a silly thing to me. "My social construct is more important than your social construct."
 
There is no such thing as a "trans" person.

There are 2 - that's two - sexes

There ARE some extremely rare malformations that occur during formation of infants/fetus in the womb, but that's a different subject.

There ARE some people who are confused about some things regarding what sex they are. That is a psychological/mental issue.

With the new "trans" trend and rage we're experiencing, the APA HAS issued some warnings about it.

Especially to those who get hot & bothered and would like to get their children involved in it.

the warning in the American Psychological Association's APA Handbook on Sexuality and Psychology as to children:

Premature labeling of gender identity should be avoided. Early social transition (i.e., change of gender role, such as registering a birth-assigned boy in school as a girl) should be approached with caution to avoid foreclosing this stage of (trans)gender identity development.
Click to expand...

The American Psychological Association Says Born-That-Way-And-Can’t-Change Is Not True of Sexual Orientation And Gender Identity - National Task Force for Therapy Equality
 
CriticalThought said:
That is a pretty weak argument. There are no laws ascribing what I can wear. You are talking about social pressure and stigma. Those exist because there are a lot of people who value the gender normative stereotypes. There is now also social pressure and stigma related to the political correctness of not ascribing to gender normative stereotypes. Seems like a silly thing to me. "My social construct is more important than your social construct."
Click to expand...

There's no laws 'ascribing' to what anyone wears. I was using that as an example to try to get you to understand the way they feel being put into a box that society accepts. People are the gender they carry in their genetic makeup and in their thinking, emotions, feeling of self-worth. Who are you or anyone else to judge them?
 
CriticalThought said:
Then what is a transgender women?
Click to expand...

Good point. If keeping male genitals and how they appear in clothing and makeup - what is a transwoman? What does they "are a man in a woman's body" even mean if there is no definition of what a woman is to begin with - if physiology and social appearance and demeanor all are irrelevant?
 
CriticalThought said:
Could I adopt a whole new set of gender stereotypes? Yes. Wearing a dress or lipstick or shaving my legs or wearing high heels would not change who I am as a person. That stuff is a costume. My masculinity is a costume. We are all ascribing to gender specific stereotypes that are just cultural constructs. Would I emotionally identify with those things the same way a trans person would? Probably not. But there are men who are really hyped up on being masculine but that doesn't mean I would be comfortable that way either.

If true gender is what you feel then there are over 7 billion genders. You notice how the list of gender pronouns has been getting longer as time has gone on? That is because people are slowly becoming aware of how socially constructed the whole concept is.
Click to expand...

Lursa said:
Would your gender identity change at all, for you, depending on what you wore or didnt wear? Or demonstrate to the world?
Click to expand...

still hoping for an answer to this ^^
 
CriticalThought said:
If that were the case, then trans people would have no need to take hormones. They would already be present at the right levels. Please clarify or try again.

Also, if gender is simply brain chemistry, then would it not be easier and cheaper for trans people to take the hormones of their sex rather than the opposite sex?
Click to expand...

Their body doesn't have the proper organs to produce the necessary hormones that align with the psychological gender identity of their brain. Testes don't secrete estrogen and ovaries don't secrete testosterone, Hippocrates.
 
CriticalThought said:
Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.
Click to expand...

You would, IMO, have to live with their mind to understand.
I can't, and never will.
So I take people at their words, until proven otherwise. Especially, when there's a significant group with same type claims.
 
captaintrips said:
There is no such thing as a "trans" person.

There are 2 - that's two - sexes

There ARE some extremely rare malformations that occur during the formation of infants/fetuses in the womb, but that's a different subject.

There ARE some people who are confused about some things regarding what sex they are. That is a psychological/mental issue.

With the new "trans" trend and rage we're experiencing, the APA HAS issued some warnings about it.

Especially to those who get hot & bothered and would like to get their children involved in it.



The American Psychological Association Says Born-That-Way-And-Can’t-Change Is Not True of Sexual Orientation And Gender Identity - National Task Force for Therapy Equality
Click to expand...

No rational parent wants their child to be transgendered or tries to convince their CIS child that they are transgendered. That is an absurd misstatement of the situation. Supportive parents whose children exhibit signs of being transgender merely want them to get the necessary and effective care so they are happy.
 
CriticalThought said:
Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.
Click to expand...

"I'm socially liberal, fiscally conservative. I don't care what you do just don't do it in my yard or make me pay for it." :)
 
CriticalThought said:
What is a "female mind"? As I stated in my post, while there are neurological differences between the genders, they are not so significant as to be distinguishable from one another in just about any metric. What possible test could you give somebody that would discern whether their mind is male or female?

I would say your definition is proving my point. A trans person is making the decision that their mind is a particular gender based on the only thing they have to compare it to, the gender stereotypes constructed by their culture. A "female mind" is a mind that identifies with the things one's culture has denoted are feminine.
Click to expand...

Why are there masculine females and feminine males? You do think that there are such people, yes?
 
Lisa said:
No rational parent wants their child to be transgendered or tries to convince their CIS child that they are transgendered. That is an absurd misstatement of the situation.
Click to expand...

No, actually it isn't. That you are unaware of certain events that we have seen in ALL media, shows how far away you have been from awareness of what is going on.

Why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?

Lisa said:
Supportive parents whose children exhibit signs of being transgender merely want them to get the necessary and effective care so they are happy.
Click to expand...

Again, why DO you think the APA decided to issue a statement as strong and public regarding these matters ?

Because a little girl decided to play with a GI Joe, or a little boy decided to try on mommies underwear, doesn't mean parents should get their child treated with hormones to try to recreate their child into the incorrect gender.
 
CriticalThought said:
If that were the case, then trans people would have no need to take hormones. They would already be present at the right levels. Please clarify or try again.

Also, if gender is simply brain chemistry, then would it not be easier and cheaper for trans people to take the hormones of their sex rather than the opposite sex?
Click to expand...

Why?
Do you think all males present the same masculinity?
All females present the same feminisim?

I see there's a sliding scale, for lack of better term, on masculinity and feminism.
I don't see a hard cut and dried line.

Do you?
 
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