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My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

Good4Nothin said:
Yes there are mistakes in nature. I was talking about what is normal.
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But transgender is half as common as intersexed. It is less normal than what you refer to as outside the norm.

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roguenuke said:
But not all women are pretty. Some are homely or even ugly. Many in fact. And some men are short or at least shorter than some women. I'm above average for a woman. I've known several men who are shorter than me.

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There are always exceptions to every generalization. IN GENERAL, women are prettier than men. IN GENERAL, men are taller and stronger than women.

A beautiful women is more beautiful than a beautiful man. Extreme beauty is mostly seen in young women. Nature's way of continuing the species. NOT ALL young women, but ONLY young women.

Women, of any age, have smoother features than men. Whatever factors go into prettiness, women have more of it. Not to say men can't be gorgeous, of course they can, but in a masculine way, which is different.
 
Good4Nothin said:
There are always exceptions to every generalization. IN GENERAL, women are prettier than men. IN GENERAL, men are taller and stronger than women.

A beautiful women is more beautiful than a beautiful man. Extreme beauty is mostly seen in young women. Nature's way of continuing the species. NOT ALL young women, but ONLY young women.

Women, of any age, have smoother features than men. Whatever factors go into prettiness, women have more of it. Not to say men can't be gorgeous, of course they can, but in a masculine way, which is different.
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Beauty is subjective. There is no absolute level or measure of beauty.

And generals do not matter when it comes to individual people. A man doesnt have to be beautiful to look like a woman or feminine. John Travolta did fine. As does RuPaul.

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roguenuke said:
If there werent social gender stereotypes, then we wouldn't need genders at all. Those who did things to specifically identify themselves as a certain gender/sex would be the outliers.

This is why I find the episode of Star Trek TNG "The Outsider" so fascinating because it comes from the other side, showing a society that considers gender/sex to be primitive and expressions of it by their people worthy of reeducation.

I have no issue going to a mostly genderless society so long as being genderless is not forced on anyone. But we are not a genderless society, so it is not wrong for those who feel they are in the wrong body, feel they should be the other gender to express that.

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Is that the one where Dr. Beverly saves a male patient, falls in love, and then the patient's symbiont it transplanted into a female? (something like that)

Or is the the one where Riker falls in love with an alien who expresses "her" gender and her society wants to have her reprogrammed?
 
roguenuke said:
Which we know a person cannot be really conditioned to change their identity. David Reimer actually is strong evidence of this. If doctors cant force that identity on someone who is being raised that way, it is not likely someone can condition themselves to change their gender identity just by how they present themselves as.

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I'd agree but Critical Thought disagreed. You'd have to follow the arrows back for the responses, if you havent.
 
Lisa said:
G4N sounds like she is very unhappy. I have to wonder if she was forced into a gender role that doesn't fit her by her parents or the church that her family attended and now she thinks that others should be forced to live in a very rigid role likewise.
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I dont know, she sounds like many others on this subject, altho many tend to be men, that refuse to accept the inborne aspect of gender. I dont know why she doesnt Wan..t to but for many men, they dont want such people accepted or out in society, similar to gays. IMO they are terrified that they'll make a mistake hitting on or being attracted to a gay, transsexual, or trans gender person, fearing it means they're gay. THey want the likelihood of such incidents completely removed from society, so fragile is their self-esteem.
 
roguenuke said:
Screen name for me actually tends to be a dominant factor in the gender I assume a poster is. I know redress is a man (from clues he has given throughout the years), but his screen name still fools me to thinking of him as a woman on occasion.

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Same here!
 
roguenuke said:
Autism is another example. People insist it has to be more prevalent today due to external factors. Well it could be that is a reason for some increase, but the biggest factor is really that there is such a huge scale of autism that those kids in the past were simply labelled differently. They were labelled as mentally retarded, stupid, mute, idiot savant (first coined in 1870), social misfits, queer, etc. What label they got would depend on their place on the spectrum, but it didnt change that autistic people still did exist in the past.

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Yes, I think I used autism/Asbergers in another post.
 
Lursa said:
I dont know, she sounds like many others on this subject, altho many tend to be men, that refuse to accept the inborne aspect of gender. I dont know why she doesnt Wan..t to but for many men, they dont want such people accepted or out in society, similar to gays. IMO they are terrified that they'll make a mistake hitting on or being attracted to a gay, transsexual, or trans gender person, fearing it means they're gay. THey want the likelihood of such incidents completely removed from society, so fragile is their self-esteem.
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I am not afraid of trans people. I don't have anything against them. I am against the reckless arrogance of our medical industry. And I am against excessive political correctness.
 
Good4Nothin said:
There are always exceptions to every generalization. IN GENERAL, women are prettier than men. IN GENERAL, men are taller and stronger than women.

A beautiful women is more beautiful than a beautiful man. Extreme beauty is mostly seen in young women. Nature's way of continuing the species. NOT ALL young women, but ONLY young women.

Women, of any age, have smoother features than men. Whatever factors go into prettiness, women have more of it. Not to say men can't be gorgeous, of course they can, but in a masculine way, which is different.
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:doh Wow.

Not only is that your personal subjectivity, and it might be shared by others, it's possible to be attracted to someone who isnt pretty/handsome AND also not be attracted to those who are pretty. I can see that Tom Cruise is very good looking but I am not attracted to him at all.
 
CriticalThought said:
Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.
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Society itself is a social construct. Unless you live off in the bush somewhere and were raised by wolves, every interaction you have with another being is a social construct. Hell, even if you were raised by wolves, they have their own social construct too.

I think the bottom line is this... We all have to decide where we fit on the sliding scale between Individualism and Collectivism. Do we want to be free to decide the way we want to live or do we prefer to conform to what society decides for us?
 
Good4Nothin said:
Oh you're very funny. There was nothing rigid about my parents, and they never went to church. Guess again.

So, just because I don't fit your stereotype of what is female, there is something wrong with me? I should get surgery? Maybe this should be mandatory -- anyone who doesn't perfectly fit their gender stereotype must be surgically re-assigned. Great idea!

That is where extreme political correctness is leading us. All must conform to what the authorities have decided is correct.
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No, I would never suggest that surgery is mandatory especially for someone who is intersex or transgendered. Why would you think otherwise because I have never even hinted at your idea? Your medical decisions are to be made by you are your doctor and nobody else. The surgery should be covered by medical insurance but I don't support making any medical treatment mandatory, with the possible exception of vaccines.

Put your persecution complex away because it was your idea.
 
Lursa said:
Is that the one where Dr. Beverly saves a male patient, falls in love, and then the patient's symbiont it transplanted into a female? (something like that)

Or is the the one where Riker falls in love with an alien who expresses "her" gender and her society wants to have her reprogrammed?
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The second one.

And Jonathan Frakes actually wanted an androgynous man to play that part rather than a woman to give it more impact. He would have been kissing a man, but felt it would have reinforced the message


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Good4Nothin said:
I am not afraid of trans people. I don't have anything against them. I am against the reckless arrogance of our medical industry. And I am against excessive political correctness.
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Well, those latter are not the case and you have not proven they are. So maybe you can rest more easily.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Uh, it's better. No one really wants to be an ugly female. Or a short little man.
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You are a very hateful and small-minded person. Would you rather than transgendered people be so unhappy that they commit suicide than to be who they are because poeople like you are so judgemental?
 
Good4Nothin said:
I am not afraid of trans people. I don't have anything against them. I am against the reckless arrogance of our medical industry. And I am against excessive political correctness.
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You seem to equate that treating transgendered with psychotherapy, hormones, and surgery people is both medically and ethically reckless and then it is also an example of political correctness. What is your solution that has better outcomes and a higher quality of life? No medical treatment is perfect and there are always risks involved, as well as risks of not treating the situation because you won't accept the risks of effective treatment. We know from your past responses that you don't understand the difference between someone who is a transvestite and someone who is transgendered, as well as not understanding psychological gender identity so your answer should be quite amusing.
 
Lursa said:
:doh Wow.

Not only is that your personal subjectivity, and it might be shared by others, it's possible to be attracted to someone who isnt pretty/handsome AND also not be attracted to those who are pretty. I can see that Tom Cruise is very good looking but I am not attracted to him at all.
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All I was saying is that transgenders cannot be made to look like the sex they prefer, if they don't already. Females are smoother and have more delicate features. That is how nature made things. Males are, generally, taller, and almost always stronger. Nature knows better than the medical industry.

Sexual attraction evolved over eons, and there are reasons (not really understood by us) why it turned out this way. But our species is arrogant and thinks it knows best about everything.

And beauty is real, and it does matter. No, we don't all agree completely. But who is going to argue that Marylin Monroe was ugly?
 
Cordelier said:
Society itself is a social construct. Unless you live off in the bush somewhere and were raised by wolves, every interaction you have with another being is a social construct. Hell, even if you were raised by wolves, they have their own social construct too.

I think the bottom line is this... We all have to decide where we fit on the sliding scale between Individualism and Collectivism. Do we want to be free to decide the way we want to live or do we prefer to conform to what society decides for us?
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The more we conform, the easier our life is likely to be. As long as we are natural conformists. The less we are willing or able to conform, the more challenging our life will be. But probably more rewarding also.

Lisa, for example, is an extreme conformist, and that's why she is so strongly in favor of transgenderism. She can't understand how any girl could not like wearing a dress. A girl like that must be terribly unhappy and in need of Zoloft and psychotherapy. And she must take puberty blocking drugs to make the female-to-male transition more effective. Don't hesitate! Take action! That girl who plays like a boy and hates wearing dresses is in danger of suicide!
 
Good4Nothin said:
All I was saying is that transgenders cannot be made to look like the sex they prefer, if they don't already.
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We all know that's not true. Didnt you see the Crying Game? Transsexuals do it all the time, trans gender people are no different with respect to how they present to the public.

Females are smoother and have more delicate features. That is how nature made things. Males are, generally, taller, and almost always stronger. Nature knows better than the medical industry.
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Sexual attraction evolved over eons, and there are reasons (not really understood by us) why it turned out this way. But our species is arrogant and thinks it knows best about everything.

And beauty is real, and it does matter. No, we don't all agree completely. But who is going to argue that Marylin Monroe was ugly?
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MM may not have been ugly but plenty of men today will tell you she was overweight...she was a size 14. And again, being pretty/handsome doesnt mean attractive. I have been attracted to men that were not what most would consider handsome.

Gays didnt hide for centuries in marriages because of evolution. They did so thru subterfuge...and how one presents themselves outwardly...with all the makeup and accouterments available...very very possible for transsexuals and trans gender people and factually happens.

And btw, "tomboys" are not known for a higher rate of suicide and I was one and certainly never considered suicide. There have been 'tomboys' forever.
 
Good4Nothin said:
The more we conform, the easier our life is likely to be. As long as we are natural conformists. The less we are willing or able to conform, the more challenging our life will be. But probably more rewarding also.
!
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Ugh! What a horrible, terrifying path that leads to! See: human history, tons of science fiction.

As if people should aspire to what is easiest? THe path of least resistance? To conforming instead of being themselves? Buh by creativity, innovation, art, the curiousity for science (because we'd just accept the status quo). Who would Wan...t that for a society?
 
Good4Nothin said:
The more we conform, the easier our life is likely to be. As long as we are natural conformists. The less we are willing or able to conform, the more challenging our life will be. But probably more rewarding also.

Lisa, for example, is an extreme conformist, and that's why she is so strongly in favor of transgenderism. She can't understand how any girl could not like wearing a dress. A girl like that must be terribly unhappy and in need of Zoloft and psychotherapy. And she must take puberty blocking drugs to make the female-to-male transition more effective. Don't hesitate! Take action! That girl who plays like a boy and hates wearing dresses is in danger of suicide!
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I'm just walking into this conversation, and I haven't read the whole thing... but Lisa doesn't exactly strike me as a conformist.

Other than that, though, I agree completely with your first statement. It's kind of like asking what kind of sailboat do you prefer? One built for speed or for comfort?
 
Lursa said:
We all know that's not true. Didnt you see the Crying Game? Transsexuals do it all the time, trans gender people are no different with respect to how they present to the public.




MM may not have been ugly but plenty of men today will tell you she was overweight...she was a size 14. And again, being pretty/handsome doesnt mean attractive. I have been attracted to men that were not what most would consider handsome.

Gays didnt hide for centuries in marriages because of evolution. They did so thru subterfuge...and how one presents themselves outwardly...with all the makeup and accouterments available...very very possible for transsexuals and trans gender people and factually happens.

And btw, "tomboys" are not known for a higher rate of suicide and I was one and certainly never considered suicide. There have been 'tomboys' forever.
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MM was overweight later, not when she was real young.

And you misunderstood what I said about tomboys. I was replying to Lisa, who said I must be terribly unhappy because I didn't like wearing dresses when I was a kid.
 
Lursa said:
Ugh! What a horrible, terrifying path that leads to! See: human history, tons of science fiction.

As if people should aspire to what is easiest? THe path of least resistance? To conforming instead of being themselves? Buh by creativity, innovation, art, the curiousity for science (because we'd just accept the status quo). Who would Wan...t that for a society?
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What?? I wasn't saying everyone should conform. But most do, and it's easier. I don't conform very much, and never did.
 
Good4Nothin said:
MM was overweight later, not when she was real young.

And you misunderstood what I said about tomboys. I was replying to Lisa, who said I must be terribly unhappy because I didn't like wearing dresses when I was a kid.
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No...she was 14 during her career. It was considered normal for women then. Proof that these things are often very much social perception, not evolutionary.
 
Lursa said:
Ugh! What a horrible, terrifying path that leads to! See: human history, tons of science fiction.

As if people should aspire to what is easiest? THe path of least resistance? To conforming instead of being themselves? Buh by creativity, innovation, art, the curiousity for science (because we'd just accept the status quo). Who would Wan...t that for a society?
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Good4Nothin said:
What?? I wasn't saying everyone should conform. But most do, and it's easier. I don't conform very much, and never did.
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More specifics would send me into Godwin territory. This is exactly what you wrote and I standby my post:

Good4Nothin said:
The more we conform, the easier our life is likely to be. As long as we are natural conformists. The less we are willing or able to conform, the more challenging our life will be. But probably more rewarding also.

Lisa, for example, is an extreme conformist, and that's why she is so strongly in favor of transgenderism. She can't understand how any girl could not like wearing a dress. A girl like that must be terribly unhappy and in need of Zoloft and psychotherapy. And she must take puberty blocking drugs to make the female-to-male transition more effective. Don't hesitate! Take action! That girl who plays like a boy and hates wearing dresses is in danger of suicide!
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