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My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

CriticalThought said:
That is a pretty weak argument. There are no laws ascribing what I can wear. You are talking about social pressure and stigma. Those exist because there are a lot of people who value the gender normative stereotypes. There is now also social pressure and stigma related to the political correctness of not ascribing to gender normative stereotypes. Seems like a silly thing to me. "My social construct is more important than your social construct."
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If there werent social gender stereotypes, then we wouldn't need genders at all. Those who did things to specifically identify themselves as a certain gender/sex would be the outliers.

This is why I find the episode of Star Trek TNG "The Outsider" so fascinating because it comes from the other side, showing a society that considers gender/sex to be primitive and expressions of it by their people worthy of reeducation.

I have no issue going to a mostly genderless society so long as being genderless is not forced on anyone. But we are not a genderless society, so it is not wrong for those who feel they are in the wrong body, feel they should be the other gender to express that.

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captaintrips said:
There is no such thing as a "trans" person.

There are 2 - that's two - sexes

There ARE some extremely rare malformations that occur during formation of infants/fetus in the womb, but that's a different subject.

There ARE some people who are confused about some things regarding what sex they are. That is a psychological/mental issue.

With the new "trans" trend and rage we're experiencing, the APA HAS issued some warnings about it.

Especially to those who get hot & bothered and would like to get their children involved in it.



The American Psychological Association Says Born-That-Way-And-Can’t-Change Is Not True of Sexual Orientation And Gender Identity - National Task Force for Therapy Equality
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Being transgender is more rare than being intersexed.

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roguenuke said:
Being transgender is more rare than being intersexed.

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I was wrong.

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births
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Approximately 0.58 percent Americans identify as transgender—or over 1.3 million.
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Good4Nothin said:
Usually, genetics are very clear about who is male or female. If every cell in your body says MALE, chances are you are male. Case closed.
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Nope. AIS says you are wrong. All cells are male, but the body appears female (though normally there are missing female parts as well). Most AIS identify as women.

Also, chimeras can have both male and female DNA within their body. There was a mother, Karen Keegan, who was getting testing done for a transplant/family match and was told her DNA did not match her sons'. In fact, she was told they appeared to be the sons of a brother (which is likely why she did not face the same issues as another woman who had the DNA of a sister and almost lost her children because of it) and her husband (weird, right?).

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Good4Nothin said:
Yes, absolutely. It is so dangerous to **** with hormones, especially at a young age.
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Yet people dont complain nearly as much about intersexed people getting it done to them, forced on them at birth.

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Good4Nothin said:
In a normal person, the chromosomes determine gender. The brain knows what gender it is, and determines sex hormones.

It is possible to be exposed to the wrong sex hormones before birth. I don't know if they have a way to test that, or if that can contribute to gender dysphoria.

If they can rule out genetic and hormonal abnormalities, then they should assume the child is NOT somehow the wrong gender.
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Why? Because you say so? There have been brain scans that show the activity of transgender brains tends to match that of the identify with more commonly than that of their born sex.

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Good4Nothin said:
They will still see a man's face, just without the hair. You can't get a pretty female face by surgery. Not usually anyway.
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Do all women have to be pretty? Is that a requirement?

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roguenuke said:
Do all women have to be pretty? Is that a requirement?

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G4N sounds like she is very unhappy. I have to wonder if she was forced into a gender role that doesn't fit her by her parents or the church that her family attended and now she thinks that others should be forced to live in a very rigid role likewise.
 
dairyair said:
David Reimer is not nor ever has been a trans person.
I doubt a non trans person can ever be a trans person. Other than pretending.


Like a gay person can never be a straight person. But that doesn't stop gay people from ever having sex or relationships with opposite sex.

Both, IMO, are ingrained into one's being, somehow.
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David Reimer helps to show that gender is innate, not based on how you are raised or your hormone levels (he was raised as a female twin, and given hormones from just after birth when the decision was made to make him "Brenda"). This does not mean that it is based on genetic sex for everyone, although it is for most.

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CriticalThought said:
It is this concept of "psychological gender" that I can't ever seem to get a straight answer about beyond "this is how they feel". I find aspects of my body disgusting, but I have adapted and incorporated that into my identity. People lose limbs or are disfigured but they adapt. This whole "not fully allow them to express who they are to both themselves and others" seems to be a self defeating belief. Whether you have a penis or vagina does not inhibit you from expression.

I can't really see surgery to remove a penis to allow a trans person to feel like more of a woman as any less superficial than a woman augmenting her breasts to feel more like a woman. Neither modification is really necessary, it serves more to manage a person's dissatisfaction with their body.
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Yet we dont give women who have breast augmentation or reductions to a "normal size" grief over having those surgeries, insist they are crazy and should not be indulged in their fantasies.

If a person had a penis and a vagina, what should he/she be encouraged to do? Be male, be female, just keep both? It would certainly be easier to just remove the penis and be female, but how do we know what is right for that person? Hormone levels? Or do we wait and ask them?

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Lursa said:
I asked you if those trappings would change your identity...turn you from male to female (the way you identified yourself). You said you could be conditioned to it.

That has nothing to do with someone feeling that way from birth or from when they were conscious of gender/very young.

So how do you see that as the same as what you just wrote? Someone not consciously making the call...but recognizing it in themselves?
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Which we know a person cannot be really conditioned to change their identity. David Reimer actually is strong evidence of this. If doctors cant force that identity on someone who is being raised that way, it is not likely someone can condition themselves to change their gender identity just by how they present themselves as.

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Irwin Corey said:
Anybody that's been in a "relationship" of any length knows that when the new wears off and it gets "day to day" and you have to live with each others "differences" … "the truth will out". I've really loved and been devoted to a few women … no way was our thinking process's the same.

I agree, I've been surprised to find out the gender of some posters, but, as often as not (maybe more) the surprise was due to my own preconceptions from something like their choice of avatar or something other than what they had to say.
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Screen name for me actually tends to be a dominant factor in the gender I assume a poster is. I know redress is a man (from clues he has given throughout the years), but his screen name still fools me to thinking of him as a woman on occasion.

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Good4Nothin said:
It isn't our female mind that prevents us from being middle linebackers.

And I would be useless at minding large groups of small children. Or even one. Anyone can learn that with experience.

What do you think are real differences in male and female MINDS, that prevents either from doing what the other does?
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In part it is.

YMMV, as I said. Ditto. To a degree, and people are different.

The REAL brain (not mind) differences are HUGE, but it's not prevention; it's aptitude/facility/tendency/etc. - YMMV.

You can Google to learn more, but brains are remarkably different by sex.
 
Lursa said:
Just the increase in numbers doesnt invalidate their conditions or how it is presented (socially or otherwise). We experienced the same thing with domestic abuse...hidden for years and people still reminisce over how 'wonderful' those post-WW2 years were. That's BS. Domestic abuse, child abuse and molestation, being gay…all were just hidden, not less prevalent.

And more recently we are seeing sexual harassment incidences steeply rising. Is that because they werent happening before? Absolutely not. Many of us remember such incidents in the workplace, or were personally harassed or abused…and know it wasn’t reported.

This is just a statement that isnt necessarily in disagreement with yours, as I'm not clear on what conclusion you've drawn.
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Autism is another example. People insist it has to be more prevalent today due to external factors. Well it could be that is a reason for some increase, but the biggest factor is really that there is such a huge scale of autism that those kids in the past were simply labelled differently. They were labelled as mentally retarded, stupid, mute, idiot savant (first coined in 1870), social misfits, queer, etc. What label they got would depend on their place on the spectrum, but it didnt change that autistic people still did exist in the past.

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Good4Nothin said:
If you were accustomed to living as a man, that might be very disturbing. But a young child has not yet become accustomed to either gender role.
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For clarification, I did not mean to include children. When I said "men", I meant adult male.
 
roguenuke said:
Nope. AIS says you are wrong. All cells are male, but the body appears female (though normally there are missing female parts as well). Most AIS identify as women.

Also, chimeras can have both male and female DNA within their body. There was a mother, Karen Keegan, who was getting testing done for a transplant/family match and was told her DNA did not match her sons'. In fact, she was told they appeared to be the sons of a brother (which is likely why she did not face the same issues as another woman who had the DNA of a sister and almost lost her children because of it) and her husband (weird, right?).

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Yes there are mistakes in nature. I was talking about what is normal.
 
roguenuke said:
Yet people dont complain nearly as much about intersexed people getting it done to them, forced on them at birth.

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If something has gone wrong, and doctors are doing whatever they can trying to remedy it, that is very different.
 
roguenuke said:
Why? Because you say so? There have been brain scans that show the activity of transgender brains tends to match that of the identify with more commonly than that of their born sex.

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Given how little anyone knows about male vs female brain activity, they can make those studies seem to show anything at all.
 
roguenuke said:
Do all women have to be pretty? Is that a requirement?

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Uh, it's better. No one really wants to be an ugly female. Or a short little man.
 
Lisa said:
G4N sounds like she is very unhappy. I have to wonder if she was forced into a gender role that doesn't fit her by her parents or the church that her family attended and now she thinks that others should be forced to live in a very rigid role likewise.
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Oh you're very funny. There was nothing rigid about my parents, and they never went to church. Guess again.

So, just because I don't fit your stereotype of what is female, there is something wrong with me? I should get surgery? Maybe this should be mandatory -- anyone who doesn't perfectly fit their gender stereotype must be surgically re-assigned. Great idea!

That is where extreme political correctness is leading us. All must conform to what the authorities have decided is correct.
 
CriticalThought said:
Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.
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One can't, for example, bully an effeminate man who is trans because it's against the law. Do I think this is just to prevent a form of bullying? Yes.
 
roguenuke said:
Nope. AIS says you are wrong. All cells are male, but the body appears female (though normally there are missing female parts as well). Most AIS identify as women.

Also, chimeras can have both male and female DNA within their body. There was a mother, Karen Keegan, who was getting testing done for a transplant/family match and was told her DNA did not match her sons'. In fact, she was told they appeared to be the sons of a brother (which is likely why she did not face the same issues as another woman who had the DNA of a sister and almost lost her children because of it) and her husband (weird, right?).

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Which percentage of trans have cell/organ mutations? Less than 1 percent? Wouldn't you say the primary organ which determines whether someone is trans is the brain?
 
cabse5 said:
Which percentage of trans have cell/organ mutations? Less than 1 percent? Wouldn't you say the primary organ which determines whether someone is trans is the brain?
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All humans have 100 -250 mutations on average during gestation alone.

And it doesn't matter which if any have AIS or are chimeras or other intersexed, because their medical information is not your business or others and in many cases would take extensive tests to prove they didnt have, especially chimerism.

Also there are ways to get cells from other people in your body. Absorbing a twin, swapping cells between mother and child, or even having bone marrow transplant.

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Good4Nothin said:
Uh, it's better. No one really wants to be an ugly female. Or a short little man.
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But not all women are pretty. Some are homely or even ugly. Many in fact. And some men are short or at least shorter than some women. I'm above average for a woman. I've known several men who are shorter than me.

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Good4Nothin said:
If something has gone wrong, and doctors are doing whatever they can trying to remedy it, that is very different.
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Giving intersexed people hormones, forcing them into a gender/sex is not about their health at all. It is about attempts to make people outside the norm "normal". There is no medical reason for either surgeries or hormones.

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