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Should Catlyn Jenner's medals and awards be taken from her?

Should Catlyn Jenner's medals and awards be taken from her?

  • Yes, Jenner was never a male so should never have been in males-only events

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • No, Jenner was a male then and is a male now, regardless of gender

    Votes: 13 92.9%

  • Total voters
    14
These people have become completely insufferable. Fortunately, there are still many people hanging out on this forum that enjoy figuring out why a disagreement can subsist.



I can watch Ben Shapiro and enjoy the show, even when he is defending positions as far from mine as they can possibly get. I think the worst example with him would be gay marriage. He's going as far as saying he wouldn't attend a gay marriage, or even the reception after the ceremony. He makes his points, I fundamentally disagree with some of premises, but at least I understand how difficult it can be to square some of his beliefs with this issue and why he thinks the way he does.

We'd probably disagree about other issues, just as you and I probably would disagree about other issues, but we all agree on the important point that people should be free to believe in what they want and should be also free to express those beliefs.

An example of that is that while I am VERY pro-choice. But I came to realize that most pro-lifers are not evil people wanting to control women and force women to have babies nor are they religious fanatics. Rather, they believe a fetus is a "baby" the same as a born baby. What is more horrific than killing defenseless babies for reasons of convenience or economics? That is a good motive.

Rather, I do not think a fetus is a baby, has no self awareness, and is entirely within the jurisdiction of the mother, not us of society.

But I can see their point, including emotionally. Except due to severe birth defect or risk to the mother, I oppose partial birth abortion (but not late term). Although I do not think a fetus is a baby, I do believe society can outlaw a pregnant woman from using drugs that harm the fetus and that such a mother could be both prosecuted (if proven absolutely and a known-to-her REAL risk - not something like smoking or drinking) and sued by a representative.

That is a debate with 2 sides, both are sincere and both have their facts and reasons. Just an example.

There is no debate happening on the topic of genetic males entering female-only athletic competitions. Just simple slogans and name-calling from the other side.

I'm pro-Trump, but have often stated I 100% agree with Warren that Amazon and Google - the 2 largest monopolies probably in earth's history - must be broken up. However, I fully oppose her wealth tax as really it is creating federal property taxes, opening the door the same way income tax was - 1% and only on rich people. I greatly oppose a federal property tax. Property taxes hamper the average people ever gaining retirement economic safety.

I'm not trying to change the topic. Rather, there isn't a debate going on about genetic males in women's athletic competition. The other side is just spouting slogans and insults - avoiding any debate of the physiological aspects of physical athletic contests.
 
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RE JOKO:
That is a debate with 2 sides, both are sincere and both have their facts and reasons.

OMG, You MFing heretic....almost no one anymore can be found with that much sense and that much decency.

WELCOME TO THE CLUB!
 
The claim of some transgender activists is that a MTF transgender was actually born a female/woman - and therefore should compete in women's athletic events. In this, they claim Catlyn Jenner was actually born a woman/female.

However, she didn't enter events for women, but for men - when she was NEVER a man according to the transgender activist claims. Thus, Jenner was never eligible to enter any even as a male. She has openly admitted she is MTF transgender.

Jenner was inducted into the United States National Track and Field Hall of Fame in 1980, the Olympic Hall of Fame in 1986, the and the Connecticut Sports Hall of Fame in 1994, and the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame in 2010 - all upon the LIE that she was a man and all with the now known fraud that Jenner was a female.

EVERY medal she won was her falsely entering competition as a man. Every honor falsely obtained. Retroactively taking away athletic awards is what is done when it was later learned the person was not eligible to compete or was later disqualified for any reason.

IF the claim of transgender activists that MTF transgender should be in female events is true, then every award, every gold medal and every honor she received all are now known should have never happened because she never should have entered any male competitions. Upon her later confession that she was never a man, all her medals, awards and honors should be stripped from her.

Lack of knowledge by Jenner is not excuse, just as it is no excuse to say "I didn't know using that health supplement was prohibited" or even "someone must have put it in my food, I didn't know." Failing a drug test - even after the fact - causes the award to be retroactively taken away. The same for entering as the wrong sex/gender - whether knowingly doing so or not.

Which one is it? Jenner was born a male/man, or born a female/woman? Pick one. If the latter, all medals and awards should be stripped from Catlyn Jenner.

I didn't like Jenner when s/he was a dude, and I don't like Jenner now.

Super-shallow mega-narcissist.

And I get what you're saying, but I just can't be arsed about this person.
 
I didn't like Jenner when s/he was a dude, and I don't like Jenner now.

Super-shallow mega-narcissist.

And I get what you're saying, but I just can't be arsed about this person.

Just pointing out those who claims trans men were born in the wrong body and always were women is something they don't even believe themselves or they would agree Jenner should lose all his medals having competed in men's events.

I've always seen his conversion to a "woman" as just a publicity stunt. Jenner has $100 million dollars. He doesn't have SRS surgery because he's really a heterosexual straight male - obviously. A woman would not keep her penis and nuts. The entire family is entirely about publicity stunts, nothing else. There is nothing about anyone in that family I have any respect for.
 
Just pointing out those who claims trans men were born in the wrong body and always were women is something they don't even believe themselves or they would agree Jenner should lose all his medals having competed in men's events.

I've always seen his conversion to a "woman" as just a publicity stunt. Jenner has $100 million dollars. He doesn't have SRS surgery because he's really a heterosexual straight male - obviously. A woman would not keep her penis and nuts. The entire family is entirely about publicity stunts, nothing else. There is nothing about anyone in that family I have any respect for.

I definitely get it, and think the way you resolve the issue in the world of athletics is similar to the bathroom issue.

Unisex/Transexual Olympics.

As to Jenner, I think s/he's mentally ill, and that mental illness dovetails with a generally unpleasant/entitled character.

Not all or even most transexuals are necessarily mentally ill, btw, but Jenner is a serious wackadoodle.
 
Silly poll and dismal choices.........

And no Jenner won the medals/awards fair and square! Next......

Agreed. She was participating as a male, against other males and earned them. That's the end of the story.
 
Agreed. She was participating as a male, against other males and earned them. That's the end of the story.

Can't disagree.

But I think Joko's making a more complicated argument about biological males competing against women & beating them unfairly.
 
I didn't like Jenner when s/he was a dude, and I don't like Jenner now.

Super-shallow mega-narcissist.

And I get what you're saying, but I just can't be arsed about this person.

I've always figured it Jenner was just doing a publicity stunt, nothing else.
 
Can't disagree.

But I think Joko's making a more complicated argument about biological males competing against women & beating them unfairly.

Oh I get what he's trying to do, he just did it very poorly.

Now if Caitlyn Jenner demanded her records be updated to change her name and say she was a woman competing as men and the record to reflect that.. Id' be against that change. I don't recall her doing that.
 
Agreed. She was participating as a male, against other males and earned them. That's the end of the story.

The point is that allowing Jenner to keep the medals contradicts "born in the opposite sex body." IF physique other than testosterone is irrelevant, then Jenner was a "woman" when he was competing.

Since I personally believe that is wrong and that Jenner is a fraud, "he" earned them. But that contradicts the radical slogans for transgender in regards to males entering female-only competitions.

This thread tends to show those making that absurd claim that other than testosterone levels there is no difference between the sexes other than psychological don't even believe it themselves. That is the purpose of the poll and this thread.
 
The point is that allowing Jenner to keep the medals contradicts "born in the opposite sex body." IF physique other than testosterone is irrelevant, then Jenner was a "woman" when he was competing.

Since I personally believe that is wrong and that Jenner is a fraud, "he" earned them. But that contradicts the radical slogans for transgender in regards to males entering female-only competitions.

This thread tends to show those making that absurd claim that other than testosterone levels there is no difference between the sexes other than psychological don't even believe it themselves. That is the purpose of the poll and this thread.

I don't really put much stock in the demands of inane radicals. Let' them tilt at windmills.
 
^ Your message is grotesque hate mongering against elderly women. But hate is the core of progressive dogma. Without hatred, there is little left.


What is hateful? You simply implied we need to go back in time and correct wrongs.

If Trump would have kept his word to his first wife that is who he would be married to now. What is wrong with that? I think they would make more a lovely couple rather than the child bride he has now.
 
The poor man is old and sick in his mind.

Let him keep his medals. Stop bringing him up. Let him alone in his infirmity. The whole of conservatism (and anyone else sick of hearing about him) thank you.
 
What is hateful? You simply implied we need to go back in time and correct wrongs.

If Trump would have kept his word to his first wife that is who he would be married to now. What is wrong with that? I think they would make more a lovely couple rather than the child bride he has now.

Because you selected a picture to ridicule her.
 
The poor man is old and sick in his mind.

Let him keep his medals. Stop bringing him up. Let him alone in his infirmity. The whole of conservatism (and anyone else sick of hearing about him) thank you.

Not all conservatives choose to be rude and mean about trans. I bowl league with a lot of veterans and MAGA hat wearing people. No one, not one of them has said boo about me being there competing with them. In fact, when the issue was brought up no one voted against me bowling with them. Conservatives all, supporting a transgender woman. Maybe try to be less abrasive, just because someone is different than you are, doesn't mean you can hide behind "CONSERVATIVE" and be rude.
 
Because you selected a picture to ridicule her.

It's called the aging process. People are so afraid of acknowledging we will not always look like we are 25 yrs old.

She could be like Donald and put make up and hair dye on and try to pretend.

Perhaps you prefer her with the fake makeup like Donald wears.

Zang+Toi+Front+Row+September+2017+New+York+mptyE0CRPu2x[1].jpg

The original Mrs Donald Trump
 
An example of that is that while I am VERY pro-choice. But I came to realize that most pro-lifers are not evil people wanting to control women and force women to have babies nor are they religious fanatics. (...) That is a debate with 2 sides, both are sincere and both have their facts and reasons. Just an example.

I personally like how Thomas Sowell put it a long time ago. To paraphrase him, many of the issues over which there is contention are sufficiently complicated that perfectly intelligent, well informed and well meaning people should be expected to disagree more often than not. That should be the presumption, but many people have the arrogance of assuming that all the truth lies with them and that it authorizes them to speak or make decisions on behalf of people who have never agreed to it and sometimes in spite of their open protest against it.

There is no debate happening on the topic of genetic males entering female-only athletic competitions. Just simple slogans and name-calling from the other side.

Douglas Murray recently wrote a book about cultural issues in Europe and he touched upon this issue. One of the striking thing about it is that when second wave feminist protest against similar things, the smear campaign marches full steam ahead. Barack Obama was right when he said the left has been busy organizing circular firing squads.

I'm pro-Trump, but have often stated I 100% agree with Warren that Amazon and Google - the 2 largest monopolies probably in earth's history - must be broken up. However, I fully oppose her wealth tax as really it is creating federal property taxes, opening the door the same way income tax was - 1% and only on rich people. I greatly oppose a federal property tax. Property taxes hamper the average people ever gaining retirement economic safety.

I personally have a very profound dislike of the attitude of Donald Trump. On the other hand, I do appreciate the fact that he is willing to stand for individual liberties and that he has been very outspoken about bias in the media and censorship in social media. With that being said, if I was an American, I would vote a straight red ticket in 2020. Given the peak we enjoyed behind the curtain of what kind of movement Senator Sanders is leading, given how the DNC has responded to Mayor Bloomberg flooding the campaign trail, and given how Democrats have generally embraced fringe ideological beliefs and identity politics, voting for any of them would be completely out of question.

As for the wealth tax, it is completely ludicrous. Going after accumulated capital is vastly more damageable than going after income, which is itself more damageable than going after consumption directly. But, then, I'm actually asking what are the least damageable and least invasive ways to get things done. I suspect that Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders are speaking out to much darker motives than seeking to finance public programs. It is as Georges Orwell wrote in the Road to Wigan Pier: they do not like the poor, they merely hate the rich.
 
It's called the aging process. People are so afraid of acknowledging we will not always look like we are 25 yrs old.

She could be like Donald and put make up and hair dye on and try to pretend.

Perhaps you prefer her with the fake makeup like Donald wears.

View attachment 67273964

The original Mrs Donald Trump

So the Democratic Party now condemns divorced people? The list of voters who should vote straight Republican for every office in every election just grew to 90%.

Is your point that Trump should instead be a billionaire with a kept woman outside of marriage that he buys like divorced Bloomberg?
 
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I'm not trying to change the topic. Rather, there isn't a debate going on about genetic males in women's athletic competition. The other side is just spouting slogans and insults - avoiding any debate of the physiological aspects of physical athletic contests.

The primary reason why far left radicals invoke ideas on epistemology and ontology drawn from postmodern philosophy is that they need an out. The whole contention over how to speak and over finding intricate ways to justify stuffing the mouth of other people with things they neither said, nor implied is essentially a way to prevent a clear discussion of what they think. If you're going to claim that over the entire spectrum of possibilities ranging from biological determinism to social constructivism, the truth conveniently lies at the politically expedient extreme, you need bullying tactics. The hypothesis is stupid on the face of it and it is thoroughly inconsistent with large scale studies carried out by overtly left leaning academics from all subfields of psychology.

If you just narrow it down to personality differences between men and women, you are looking at massive world wide surveys going by the tens of thousands of respondants scattered over dozens of countries and across all continent with patterns that are robust to the underlying personality model, the questionnaire, the sample of countries used, etc. All of them also found a shocking stylized fact: regardless of how you measure the degree of gender equality in a society, differences between men and women increase when gender equality increase. Depending on the personality trait and the choices you make, the correlation will run in the 0.3 to 0.5 range with high statistical significance -- and, no, even if you cast it into a regression framework and try to kill it by controlling for other factors, it does not go away. Looking across all those surveys, we're talking about something like half a million data points, in six different large scale studies done by different people, from different points of views across a total of over 70 countries in the largest study... If you want a shocker, other studies found very weird patterns. It's not in Denmark that girls do best in mathematics and science when compared to boys. It's in places like Jordan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. And it's in Sweden, Denmark and Switzerland that you will find the widest gap in life priorities, aspirations and preferences in matters of career between men and women. If you want to find more similarity, I am afraid you will have to again look at the Middle East or Subsaharan Africa -- which aren't exactly known as hot beds for feminism.


There are also many intriguing patterns, once you allow yourself to dig in that direction. When you take two equally smart and gifted mathematicians, one male and one female, they will perform equally well at solving puzzles, but they will tend to use different cognitive skills to do it: women will rely on verbal arguments and, men, on symbolic and geometric arguments. If you give them a test, depending on whether you ask the question using mathematical symbols or using words, you can get one sex to outperform the other even if, on average, you selected people who are equally good. Another interesting thing is that the stereotype of a nerd is true for men, but not for women. Simply put, there is a negative correlation for men between systemizing and empathizing skills, but it's not there for women. In BBT terms, you'll see a lot more Sheldon's than Amy's. If you ask absolute mathematical geniuses about their life priorities, women will tend to prefer to sacrifice career opportunities for gains in their social life while men will tend to do the opposite. This works even if you pick women raised after the 1970s, who have known their whole life to be geniuses, who have grown in liberal areas and with parents who encouraged them. These geniuses are likelier to pursue a degree in the social sciences or law than in a STEM field. If they do opt for a STEM field, they will tend to go for people oriented fields such as medicine. It doesn't mean that you cannot find a workaholic female particle physicst who is poised to win a Nobel prize late in her life, nor that you cannot find an empathetic male nurse who prefer spending more time with his kids or with his friends than pursuing career advancement and making more money.

The tragedy here is that we might be labeling "disrimination" what sometimes is at least in part a difference of opinion about what is desirable. When we do that, any attempt to change the situation by force is de facto a form of oppression for both men and women. The other tragedy is that we're telling female math prodigies that their desire to dig into, say, psychology is a waste of talent. Shouldn't it be wonderful that in our technologically fueled world, smart people still want to do these things?
 
It's called the aging process. People are so afraid of acknowledging we will not always look like we are 25 yrs old. She could be like Donald and put make up and hair dye on and try to pretend. Perhaps you prefer her with the fake makeup like Donald wears.

It is almost impossible to go through an entire day without running into someone clamoring the pilars of the Orange Man Bad narrative. Every single time, I am left wondering to whom exactly are these people responding? The vast majority of people, including the people who voted or will vote for Donald Trump are perfectly aware that he is a complete a**. No one here is laboring under the delusion that he is the second coming of Christ, except in the incongruent fantasies and delirium of people who suffer from accute Trump Derangement Syndrom.

So, who are you talking to, exactly? I don't know of anyone who never squeezed their teeth and look at him weird because of something stupid he did or said.
 
The claim of some transgender activists is that a MTF transgender was actually born a female/woman - and therefore should compete in women's athletic events. In this, they claim Catlyn Jenner was actually born a woman/female.

However, she didn't enter events for women, but for men - when she was NEVER a man according to the transgender activist claims. Thus, Jenner was never eligible to enter any even as a male. She has openly admitted she is MTF transgender.

Jenner was inducted into the United States National Track and Field Hall of Fame in 1980, the Olympic Hall of Fame in 1986, the and the Connecticut Sports Hall of Fame in 1994, and the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame in 2010 - all upon the LIE that she was a man and all with the now known fraud that Jenner was a female.

EVERY medal she won was her falsely entering competition as a man. Every honor falsely obtained. Retroactively taking away athletic awards is what is done when it was later learned the person was not eligible to compete or was later disqualified for any reason.

IF the claim of transgender activists that MTF transgender should be in female events is true, then every award, every gold medal and every honor she received all are now known should have never happened because she never should have entered any male competitions. Upon her later confession that she was never a man, all her medals, awards and honors should be stripped from her.

Lack of knowledge by Jenner is not excuse, just as it is no excuse to say "I didn't know using that health supplement was prohibited" or even "someone must have put it in my food, I didn't know." Failing a drug test - even after the fact - causes the award to be retroactively taken away. The same for entering as the wrong sex/gender - whether knowingly doing so or not.

Which one is it? Jenner was born a male/man, or born a female/woman? Pick one. If the latter, all medals and awards should be stripped from Catlyn Jenner.

No, of course not.
 
Not all conservatives choose to be rude and mean about trans. I bowl league with a lot of veterans and MAGA hat wearing people. No one, not one of them has said boo about me being there competing with them. In fact, when the issue was brought up no one voted against me bowling with them. Conservatives all, supporting a transgender woman. Maybe try to be less abrasive, just because someone is different than you are, doesn't mean you can hide behind "CONSERVATIVE" and be rude.
I'm neither being rude nor mean.

The statement that Mr. Jenner has sickness of mind is an accurate (if candid) reflection of how I view his circumstances. I can think of no more gentle way of putting it.

You can argue that I'm mistaken in this view--out of ignorance, bigotry, misguided morality, etc.--but being mistaken isn't tantamount to rudeness or cruelty.

Rudeness in particular is determined by context. Our present context is a "Sex and Sexuality" thread on political debate forum where people are expected to be candid with their viewpoints. Put another way: if there's anywhere on Earth where people are expected to be candid with their viewpoints, it's here.

By contrast, in public places like bowling alleys, I hold my peace and politely avoid disclosing my views on transgenderism/transvestitism. Firstly, because bowling alleys aren't appropriate venues to confront people with controversial opinions. And secondly, because people in bowling alleys aren't looking for strangers to critique their lifestyle. They wouldn't be the least bit receptive to criticism. Hence you can count me among those who see/hear/speak no evil along with the "veterans and MAGA hat wearing people" in virtually all public places.

I'm invoking conservatism because (like it or not) rejection and/or abhorrence of transgenderism/transvestitism is a fundamental doctrine of social conservatism. Like any such doctrine, not all social conservatives subscribe to it, but enough that it's a valid generalization.

I don't know what @joko104 hopes to accomplish with this thread, but I hope he realizes he's drawing attention to a social issue that's already been magnified ten thousandfold over its rightful significance. He's granting legitimacy to a movement that ought not be legitimized. Especially by rigging the poll with ridiculously shoehorned options, which is a flashing red sign to progressives saying, "Hey everybody! I can only make my argument by rigging polls. Please come kick me and my fellow duplicitous conservatives during this golden opportunity. Love, Joko".
 
I'm neither being rude nor mean.

The statement that Mr. Jenner has sickness of mind is an accurate (if candid) reflection of how I view his circumstances. I can think of no more gentle way of putting it.

You can argue that I'm mistaken in this view--out of ignorance, bigotry, misguided morality, etc.--but being mistaken isn't tantamount to rudeness or cruelty.

Rudeness in particular is determined by context. Our present context is a "Sex and Sexuality" thread on political debate forum where people are expected to be candid with their viewpoints. Put another way: if there's anywhere on Earth where people are expected to be candid with their viewpoints, it's here.

By contrast, in public places like bowling alleys, I hold my peace and politely avoid disclosing my views on transgenderism/transvestitism. Firstly, because bowling alleys aren't appropriate venues to confront people with controversial opinions. And secondly, because people in bowling alleys aren't looking for strangers to critique their lifestyle. They wouldn't be the least bit receptive to criticism. Hence you can count me among those who see/hear/speak no evil along with the "veterans and MAGA hat wearing people" in virtually all public places.

I'm invoking conservatism because (like it or not) rejection and/or abhorrence of transgenderism/transvestitism is a fundamental doctrine of social conservatism. Like any such doctrine, not all social conservatives subscribe to it, but enough that it's a valid generalization.

I don't know what @joko104 hopes to accomplish with this thread, but I hope he realizes he's drawing attention to a social issue that's already been magnified ten thousandfold over its rightful significance. He's granting legitimacy to a movement that ought not be legitimized. Especially by rigging the poll with ridiculously shoehorned options, which is a flashing red sign to progressives saying, "Hey everybody! I can only make my argument by rigging polls. Please come kick me and my fellow duplicitous conservatives during this golden opportunity. Love, Joko".

It's pretend ignorance and "caring" masking obvious hatred. Ms. Jenner is quite happy, your REPEATED misgendering her as him only makes you look petty, small and your arguments moot.
 
You openly support discrimination against females on behalf of males who want to enter female-only competition - no different than claiming old men like you should be able to play football on a team limited to little children - "because you feel young."

The majority of MTF are gay. There are exceptions, like Renae - and accordingly Renae fully acknowledges the physiological differences between someone born with the generic SEX of male over female, which is an entirely different matter than "gender."

No, you look down on females, you are fine with - even support - females being punished, basically banned, from serious athletics SPECIFICALLY because of what makes them female from evolution - all related to childbearing and childrearing. Everything that actually is the difference between females and males are all traits NO MTF transgender nor transexual can every obtain.

Males don't have the weight of breasts.
Males don't have wide hips.
Males don't have shorter legs per height for a lower center of gravity - safer in pregnancy and carrying a child on her wide hip not to trip and fall.
Females burn less calories per food consumption - being more efficient with food because sometimes she'll be eating for 2 and because when food becomes scarce, males tend to eat first - this means also slower energy conversion to muscles usage. Males don't have a menstrual cycle.

EVERYTHING in real terms that separates females from males are all traits NO transgender can ever have BECAUSE THEY ALL RELATE TO PREGNANCY, CHILDBIRTH and FEEDING children with her own body. Greater physical power is how males have always been able to dominate women - literally by beating them. You fully support males beating women. Physically beating them - claiming it is because you feel sorry for transgender males and don't give a damn about any female who won't accept she was born to be beaten by men - her punishment for being female by males if she enters any athletic competition.

You have NO respect for what makes a female a female. I don't give a damn if a male wants to think of him/herself as a "woman." Gender has NOTHING to do with athletics.

For the rules, I can not really write my true opinion of men who support such grotesque abuse and trivialization of females as you in your message. I read NOTHING indicating ANY respect of females - only you sobbing for men who want to steal from females, being too much losers to compete against other males nor competing against others like themselves.

Loser men like women to be beaten. Such men are scum, regardless of their diversionary rationalizations.

As women increasingly enter athletics and gain income and benefits that otherwise still would 100% go to males, males like you found a way to get male to beat - literally physically beat in physical competitions - females. Don't pretend you believe in equality nor actually do respect females in TRUE respect. I respect females because of what makes them female. YOU declare that is NOTHING, absolutely nothing. You claim what makes them female is NOTHING, irrelevant to being a woman. You could not more insult and trivialize females.

What happened in your life recently that you are so determined to attack and trying to rationalize your hatred for transgender people because this obsession is not natural
 
It's pretend ignorance and "caring" masking obvious hatred. Ms. Jenner is quite happy, your REPEATED misgendering her as him only makes you look petty, small and your arguments moot.
If I hated Mr. Jenner, or felt any ill will towards him, I'd plainly say so.

I frankly don't care how asserting the truth makes me look. The idea of divorcing one's gender from one's immutable biological sex is a delusion destined to create ever-greater misery, chaos, confusion, and dysfunction. I hold my peace in public for sake of sparing people's feelings, but on forums like this, even if the whole world goes mad eagerly pretending men are women and women are men, let it be known there were some who didn't go mad with it.
 
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