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Utah joins the states banning conversion therapy for minors

vegas giants said:
The potential for mistakes is too high. It's a massive decision. It should be made by an adult
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It is made by an adult. The team of Drs and psychologists and the patient. You seem to think that this is a quick decision but it is years in the making with multiple layers of safeguards.

Do you want to deny all children care because they are mionors?
 
Lisa said:
You cannot deny someone necessary medical care until they are 18, regardless of your beliefs.
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I want to be clear about what I support. I support the child being allowed to dress as they want, use the name and pronouns they want and be able to spend time with like minded individuals.

But medical interventions for this subjective condition needs to be made by the patient at 18
 
Lisa said:
It is made by an adult. The team of Drs and psychologists and the patient. You seem to think that this is a quick decision but it is years in the making with multiple layers of safeguards.

Do you want to deny all children care because they are mionors?
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Do you support reassignment surgery for a minor who has gone thru this process?
 
Lisa said:
It is made by an adult. The team of Drs and psychologists and the patient. You seem to think that this is a quick decision but it is years in the making with multiple layers of safeguards.

Do you want to deny all children care because they are mionors?
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Actually consent comes from the parent
 
vegas giants said:
Would you allow a small child to get reassignment surgery? What if some doctor approves it for a 10 year old? How about a 9-year-old boy that wants breast implants? I have great compassion for those who feel they are in the wrong body. At 18 we should help them in any way we can. But it is a adult decision
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No small child has gender surgery. That doesn't happen until they are 17 and usually 18 years old. The youngest ever gender surgery was at 16 in Germany. Her name is Kim Petras.
Kim Petras - Wikipedia

No child has breasts at 8-9 tyears old, so they are not going to approve implants for a pre-teen. CIS females don't develop until we are 10-12 at the earliest.
 
Lisa said:
No small child has gender surgery. That doesn't happen until they are 17 and usually 18 years old. The youngest ever gender surgery was at 16 in Germany. Her name is Kim Petras.
Kim Petras - Wikipedia

No child has breasts at 8-9 tyears old, so they are not going to approve implants for a pre-teen. CIS females don't develop until we are 10-12 at the earliest.
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Yes. They wait until they are old enough. We are not discussing if there should be a line.....just where it starts. It should be at 18
 
vegas giants said:
Actually consent comes from the parent
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The parents are not involved in the diagnosis so they can tell the Dr what to do. The parents can refuse treatment but they can not force the Dr to approve care.
 
Lisa said:
The parents are not involved in the diagnosis so they can tell the Dr what to do. The parents can refuse treatment but they can not force the Dr to approve care.
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You said they can not refuse care.


But in this case they can
 
vegas giants said:
Yes. They wait until they are old enough. We are not discussing if there should be a line.....just where it starts. It should be at 18
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The psychological care and blockers-hormones start much earlier because they must feminize the body before surgery for a MtF trans girl. This is a very long (4-5 years+) process for teens and much longer for pre-teens with years of psychological testing and counseling before anything medical happens. You seem to be under the impression that it is happening in a few office visits at the endocrinologist and pediatrician.

There is an international medical standards of med-psych' care that must be followed for both teens and adults.
 
Lisa said:
The psychological care and blockers-hormones start much earlier because they must feminize the body before surgery for a MtF trans girl. This is a very long (4-5 years+) process for teens and much longer for pre-teens with years of psychological testing and counseling before anything medical happens. You seem to be under the impression that it is happening in a few office visits at the endocrinologist and pediatrician.

There is an international medical standards of med-psych' care that must be followed for both teens and adults.
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Lisa I know a great deal about this process. We simply disagree. I find your posts to be intelligent and well informed on a great many things. I hope you see that in my posts as well. People of good heart can disagree.


Again I fully support this process for anyone over the age of 18 and it should be completely covered by the state
 
vegas giants said:
You said they can not refuse care.


But in this case, they can
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I said that the parents can refuse care but there is also a way for the teens to have that decision overruled and be placed in the custody of children's services if they feel the parents has motives that are not in the teen's best interest such as religious/social beliefs. The parents cannot overrule a diagnosis by the Dr and force them to give the child medication or surgery because of their supposed Munchausen's, as you suspect might be happening. There is a team of qualified and experienced Drs and PhDs involved and the sessions are videotaped for legal protections and so others can view what is happening and make decisions if there is a question.
There are multiple layers of CYA and medical liability in place for the protection of everyone involved.
 
vegas giants said:
Lisa I know a great deal about this process. We simply disagree. I find your posts to be intelligent and well informed on a great many things. I hope you see that in my posts as well. People of good heart can disagree.


Again I fully support this process for anyone over the age of 18 and it should be completely covered by the state
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Do you think that I also don't know about the process?
 
Lisa said:
I said that the parents can refuse care but there is also a way for the teens to have that decision overruled and be placed in custody of children's services if they feel the parents has motives that are not in the teen's best interest such as religious/social beliefs. The parents cannot overrule a disgnosis by the Dr and force them to give the child medication or surgery because of their supposed Munchausens, as you suspect might be happening. There is a team of qualified and experienced Drs and PhDs involved and the sessions are videotaped for legal protections and so others can virew what is happeing and make decisons if there is a question.
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I know of no case where a court ordered hormone treatment against the wishes of the parent.

And the other disorder you refer to is munchausen by proxy
 
Lisa said:
Do you think that I also don't know about the process?
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This is not a disagreement about the process. Just when it should begin
 
vegas giants said:
I know of no case where a court-ordered hormone treatment against the wishes of the parent.

And the other disorder you refer to is Munchausen by proxy
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The fact that you don't know of any doesn't mean that it didn't happen.


I am well aware of what Muchuasens by proxy is. I'm far from stupid, despite what you may believe.

I'm smart enough and knowledgeable enough to know that I'll trust the Drs. Mistakes are made in medicine and there are protections put in place to protect the patients. We could have had medical care if there was not any risk of a mistake being made. We cannot deny teens from necessary care just because of your fears of the process, like because of biased sites that you have read relying on lies and scare tactics. Their mental health cannot be denied and put on hold until they are 18. Denying care until 18 has severe long term problems that you want to ignore.

Their body is physically maturing in the wrong gender because of the lack of proper hormones and that is permanent. It has serious long term physical and emotional effects for the person and that they do not go away once hormones might begin at 18 because of your fears, but you want to ignore that possibility and the life long effects that it causes.

You seem to think that children are having surgery when clearly that doesn't and cannot happen.
 
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Lisa said:
The fact that you don't know of any doesn't mean that it didn't happen.


I am well aware of what Muchuasens by proxy is. I'm far from stupid, despite what you may believe.

I'm smart enough and knowledgeable enough to know that I'll trust the Drs. Mistakes are made in medicine and there are protections put in place to protect the patients. We could have had medical care if there was not any risk of a mistake being made. We cannot deny teens from necessary care just because of your fears of the process, like because of biased sites that you have read relying on lies and scare tactics. Their mental health cannot be denied and put on hold until they are 18. Denying care until 18 has severe long term problems that you want to ignore.

Their body is physically maturing in the wrong gender because of the lack of proper hormones and that is permanent. It has serious long term physical and emotional effects for the person and that they do not go away once hormones might begin at 18 because of your fears, but you want to ignore that possibility and the life long effects that it causes.

You seem to think that children are having surgery when clearly that doesn't and cannot happen.
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I have tried to be complimentary to you and polite as well. We have a difference of opinion. And that is what it is....opinion...not fact. Good day
 
vegas giants said:
I am fine with adults having this treatment and even having the state pay for it. But children are too young for it
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As an atheist libertarian conservative I am fine with adults who so desire having this 'treatment'. But against the state paying for it and massively against it being imposed on children under any circumstance.
 
Sweden said:
As an atheist libertarian conservative I am fine with adults who so desire having this 'treatment'. But against the state paying for it and massively against it being imposed on children under any circumstance.
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If its medical treatment....and it is....it should be paid for like all other medical treatment. Fully by the state
 
vegas giants said:
If its medical treatment....and it is....it should be paid for like all other medical treatment. Fully by the state
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Why on earth do you think 'conversion therapy' is a medical treatment? Because some religionuts say it is?
 
Sweden said:
Why on earth do you think 'conversion therapy' is a medical treatment? Because some religionuts say it is?
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My apologies. I was discussing hormone treatment for gender identity disorder and I was referring to that. Conversion therapy is not a medical treatment at any age and should never be paid for by the government
 
RAMOSS said:
It's about time too. Utah in specific has a lot of 'gay' issues.

Utah banning ‘conversion therapy’ with Mormon church backing
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I am a retired therapist who agrees that so-called "conversion therapy" is based on flawed science, and yet, I oppose states banning this type of counseling.

Why? Simple civil liberties. It's not the role of state governments to weigh in on which specific therapeutic modalities are legitimate and which are not. If a willing adult client and willing therapist agree to engage in therapy, it's not the state's business to intervene and say "no" based on the underlying theoretical orientation of that therapy.
 
jamesrodom said:
I am a retired therapist who agrees that so-called "conversion therapy" is based on flawed science, and yet, I oppose states banning this type of counseling.

Why? Simple civil liberties. It's not the role of state governments to weigh in on which specific therapeutic modalities are legitimate and which are not. If a willing adult client and willing therapist agree to engage in therapy, it's not the state's business to intervene and say "no" based on the underlying theoretical orientation of that therapy.
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Do you support banning it for children?
 
jamesrodom said:
I am a retired therapist who agrees that so-called "conversion therapy" is based on flawed science, and yet, I oppose states banning this type of counseling.

Why? Simple civil liberties. It's not the role of state governments to weigh in on which specific therapeutic modalities are legitimate and which are not. If a willing adult client and willing therapist agree to engage in therapy, it's not the state's business to intervene and say "no" based on the underlying theoretical orientation of that therapy.
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When it comes to civil liberties, harming people is not a 'civil liberty'. The banning of it is for minors. The person I know that went through it at age 16 had suicidal thoughts for years after. Out of the 13 people who went though the 'session' with her, 7 are dead after 16 years. A death rate of over 50 percent after 16 years is , well, a concern that is more than 'civil liberties'
 
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