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1 in 16 U.S. women say first sexual experience was rape in their teen years

Lursa said:
Then why did you write that you thought we agreed?
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Because you said something I agreed with, namely "And by definition, minors cannot consent (it's against their will)."

Then you said something I disagree with, specifically, "So then such acts are considered rape and included in the study." Such acts are considered statutory rape and I've seen no evidence they are included in the study. If you have any, please share.
 
eman623 said:
Who said "threatened"? The study just says "verbally pressured". Not the same thing.
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Very much the same thing! Were you there when the men said "Pretty Please" to "verbally pressure" girls into unwanted sex?
 
Manc Skipper said:
Very much the same thing! Were you there when the men said "Pretty Please" to "verbally pressure" girls into unwanted sex?
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Woah, Nelly! Come on, my friend, surely you see this is argument is not only self-defeating but destructive.

It's self-defeating because you weren't there, either. Both sides are arguing from the same data, so you have no grounds to claim special knowledge of what happened in these encounters.

It's destructive because it removes all benefit of the doubt. "Verbal pressure" is a vast sea of gray. I think we all can agree there's a huge ethical and moral difference "pretty please" and "sex me or else." The fact is, we can't make reasonable conclusions about the severity of the study participants' behavior without more information.

But I know this -- there might not be a married soul on this earth who hasn't had sex when they didn't really want to, so if we set our snares too wide, we'll trap everyone.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Very much the same thing! Were you there when the men said "Pretty Please" to "verbally pressure" girls into unwanted sex?
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LOL. I've been that guy saying "pretty please". Multiple times. So has every other heterosexual male on the planet. Men beg for sex.

Still not rape.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Woah, Nelly! Come on, my friend, surely you see this is argument is not only self-defeating but destructive.

It's self-defeating because you weren't there, either. Both sides are arguing from the same data, so you have no grounds to claim special knowledge of what happened in these encounters.

It's destructive because it removes all benefit of the doubt. "Verbal pressure" is a vast sea of gray. I think we all can agree there's a huge ethical and moral difference "pretty please" and "sex me or else." The fact is, we can't make reasonable conclusions about the severity of the study participants' behavior without more information.

But I know this -- there might not be a married soul on this earth who hasn't had sex when they didn't really want to, so if we set our snares too wide, we'll trap everyone.
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It's worth noting again that this study "relied on a national survey that didn't use the word [rape] in asking women about forced sex." In other words, the women that this study says were raped did not themselves say that.
 
eman623 said:
Too many liberals define rape as stuff that isn't rape.
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How many conservatives define rape that isn't rape ?

How many people who support a one party state with a command economy and communist collectivization believe it ?


Why do you think that an economic leaning would change your views on what is rape ?



Btw - give an (still living please) example of who you consider a liberal and who you regard as a conservative.
 
eman623 said:
Because you said something I agreed with, namely "And by definition, minors cannot consent (it's against their will)."

Then you said something I disagree with, specifically, "So then such acts are considered rape and included in the study." Such acts are considered statutory rape and I've seen no evidence they are included in the study. If you have any, please share.
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They didnt exclude it and 'teen years' still includes 18/19 yr olds.
 
eman623 said:
LOL. I've been that guy saying "pretty please". Multiple times. So has every other heterosexual male on the planet. Men beg for sex.

Still not rape.
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And if men werent so focused on doing anything for sex they would have to worry a whole lot less about women falsely accusing them.
 
Lursa said:
They didnt exclude it and 'teen years' still includes 18/19 yr olds.
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Unlawful sex is often regarded as rape.

eg: if a teacher has sex with a pupil in his class he/she is charged with rape.

It doesn't matter whether it was consensual or not.
 
Rich2018 said:
Unlawful sex is often regarded as rape.

eg: if a teacher has sex with a pupil in his class he/she is charged with rape.

It doesn't matter whether it was consensual or not.
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I know.
 
Rich2018 said:
How many conservatives define rape that isn't rape ?

How many people who support a one party state with a command economy and communist collectivization believe it ?


Why do you think that an economic leaning would change your views on what is rape ?



Btw - give an (still living please) example of who you consider a liberal and who you regard as a conservative.
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"Liberal" is a political and ideological, not an economic leaning.
 
Lursa said:
They didnt exclude it and 'teen years' still includes 18/19 yr olds.
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Do you have evidence that the study did not exclude statutory rape sex where force or verbal pressure was not involved? Because the quote in the article is quite clear that its definition involved force or verbal pressure.
 
Lursa said:
And if men werent so focused on doing anything for sex they would have to worry a whole lot less about women falsely accusing them.
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Men don't do "anything" for sex. But men usually have a stronger biological urge for sex than women. It's how we evolved. Probably it's part of the reason why we're running the planet and not the Neanderthals.

And the only one falsely accusing men of rape here seems to be Dr. Laura Hawks, an internist and Harvard Medical School researcher. You can't blame men for that. That's all on her.
 
eman623 said:
Men don't do "anything" for sex. But men usually have a stronger biological urge for sex than women. It's how we evolved. Probably it's part of the reason why we're running the planet and not the Neanderthals.

And the only one falsely accusing men of rape here seems to be Dr. Laura Hawks, an internist and Harvard Medical School researcher. You can't blame men for that. That's all on her.
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Yes...men have demonstrably done anything and everything imaginable to get sex. How can you even debate that?

and I saw no false accusations in the article.
 
eman623 said:
Do you have evidence that the study did not exclude statutory rape sex where force or verbal pressure was not involved? Because the quote in the article is quite clear that its definition involved force or verbal pressure.
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It didnt go into that detail for any of the statements. You'd need to see the data.

Being aware of 'reality,' I dont exclude it at all...but the proof would be in the data.
 
eman623 said:
"Liberal" is a political and ideological, not an economic leaning.
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I am a liberal and I have liberal political and economic beliefs.

So you're wrong - how does that not surprise us ?

But hey don't take my word for it:


Economic liberalism - Wikiquote

The "new liberal economics" is the key to understanding Hillary Clinton's policies - Vox




Anyway the question remains unanswered. just focus on the top line if you want: "How many conservatives define rape that isn't rape' ?
 
Lursa said:
Yes...men have demonstrably done anything and everything imaginable to get sex. How can you even debate that?

and I saw no false accusations in the article.
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Not all men. And the article calls acts rape that the women involved did not say were rape. That's the definition of a false accusation.
 
Lursa said:
It didnt go into that detail for any of the statements. You'd need to see the data.

Being aware of 'reality,' I dont exclude it at all...but the proof would be in the data.
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So you don't know either.
 
eman623 said:
Not all men. And the article calls acts rape that the women involved did not say were rape. That's the definition of a false accusation.
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Please, it's ludicrous to quibble over how many men. :roll:

And we're back to: a teen girl may not consider it rape but that doesnt mean it's not statutory rape.

I'm tired of the circles. Either refer to actual data or desist. At least I'm basing my speculation on reality and not defensiveness over how this threatens some males.
 
eman623 said:
1 in 16 U.S. women say first sexual experience was rape in their teen years

I don't know why some researchers try to inflate rape statistics like this. Rape is bad enough and I think rapists should be locked up for life. But this study defines rape as follows: "Any sexual encounter (with penetration) that occurs against somebody's will is rape. If somebody is verbally pressured into having sex, it's just as much rape."

WTF? Verbally pressuring someone into having sex is "rape"? No. It's. Not. If that's the definition of rape, then about half of my sexual encounters were rapes.

Why does Dr. Laura Hawks, an internist and Harvard Medical School researcher think otherwise? Does she think she's helping women or men by inflating the number of rapes? Is she not worried that including stuff that is not rape won't dilute the word and make it lose its power?

How many young men and women are being taught this in schools as if it was reality? Boys are told that they are potential rapists and girls are told that every sexual encounter that they don't initiate is a rape. Yeah, that'll make for a healthy society.

It's worth noting that the study, "relied on a national survey that didn't use the word in asking women about forced sex." So the women who were questioned didn't say they were raped. That's just Dr. Laura Hawks, an internist and Harvard Medical School researcher, calling it that. Make sure you remember that name.
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Join us in the present...no means no.
 
That was more a negotiation. Will you love me forever?
 
Oborosen said:
This is the age in which some women will say that being cat called is equivalent to sexual assault. The Metoo movement has turned into a fetid joke at this point.
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An unwanted sexual advance is assault. What is a cat call? An unwanted sexual advance.
 
TheGoverness said:
Somebody coercing someone into having sexual intercourse, can certainly constitute as rape, provided that there's threats involved, and/or there's a person in a high position of power that's abusing their authority.

But I don't think 1/16 women in the U.S have had that experience. I think that's a bit of a ridiculously high number.
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Your thoughts can't compare to data gathered in research.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
I can't agree agree or disagree with this statement, because I have no idea what you would consider to be "coercion." So let's take two specific examples:

1. A man and his wife haven't had sex in a while. The man says, "If you won't have sex with me, I'm going to the massage parlor." The woman relents. Is that rape?

2. Two teens are making out in a car. The boy says, "I'm not ready to go all the way." The girl says, "It's not fair to leave me hanging like this. At least use your hand or I'll tell everyone you can't get it up." He relents. Is that rape?
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Ask the person that didn't want to have sex.
 
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