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Self Identification Demands Placed On Others

CLAX1911 said:
Will they be handed out for purposefully using the "wrong" pronouns?
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"Discrimination against a transgender individual could result in fines of up to $250,000, but these fines won’t be handed out for accidentally misusing pronouns. According to the new guidelines, the commission can impose civil penalties of up to $125,000 for violations of the law and (in extreme circumstances) of up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of “willful, wanton, or malicious” conduct."

I suppose that would come under conduct. I.e. mocking or being persistent. Though I've never heard of anyone wanting to be addressed as ze or zir.
 
code1211 said:
Your definition is pretty much the same as mine. The psychological neurosis of the afflicted allows them to understand that they are something they don't like.

That is EXACTLY what a neurosis is.

To help: The psychotic thinks that 2+2 does not = 4. The neurotic knows that 2 + 2 = 4, but he really doesn't like it. Ergo, the "distressed state".

I don't care if a person of any reality thinks they are something else. It makes no difference to me. It has no effect on me.

What DOES have an effect on me is when the neurotic DEMANDS that I ignore reality and support their fantasy AND that I am now subject to various legal penalties if reality is embraced.

Anyway, if we are now all to be are forced to participate in the fantasies of those distressed by reality, I wish to be known as a young and vital handsome guy.

Being old ain't for sissies. It's actually quite distressing. Being young is gift wasted on the youthful who blissfully wallow in it with no idea how it has eased their lives.

Is it too much to ask of the the woke who are willing to suspend their rationality for others gripped by fantasies to simply do so again for me? I merely want to join this group of folks so entitled.

Seems reasonable in a non-sane way. ;)
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So we're all neurotic because we all are something we don't like so we continually try to improve ourselves to what we like or think society or opposite sexes? :lamo
You really walked into that one. Think before you talk.:lol:
 
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AProudLefty said:
"Discrimination against a transgender individual could result in fines of up to $250,000, but these fines won’t be handed out for accidentally misusing pronouns. According to the new guidelines, the commission can impose civil penalties of up to $125,000 for violations of the law and (in extreme circumstances) of up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of “willful, wanton, or malicious” conduct."
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so compelled speech under the threat of fine?
I suppose that would come under conduct. I.e. mocking or being persistent. Though I've never heard of anyone wanting to be addressed as ze or zir.
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This is forcing opinion on people literally. If it's not someone's opinion that a transgender can be the gender they identify as then you're forcing them to accept something they don't accept.

It's thought policing.
 
CLAX1911 said:
so compelled speech under the threat of fine?
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Ok I'll explain. Imagine a boss keeping calling a female worker "Mr." or referring her as him or his, because he thinks it's funny and he thinks she's "masculine". Do you think she would be comfortable in that work environment? You are there to work, not be made a mockery out of. When people work with each other, they address each other by their proper designations.

This is forcing opinion on people literally. If it's not someone's opinion that a transgender can be the gender they identify as then you're forcing them to accept something they don't accept.

It's thought policing.
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Forcing what? They are not forced to accept their genders. It's just a simple addressing.
 
AProudLefty said:
Ok I'll explain. Imagine a boss keeping calling a female worker "Mr." or referring her as him or his, because he thinks it's funny and he thinks she's "masculine". Do you think she would be comfortable in that work environment? You are there to work, not be made a mockery out of. When people work with each other, they address each other by their proper designations.
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Is he subject to a $250,000 fine for doing that?





Forcing what? They are not forced to accept their genders. It's just a simple addressing.
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Under penalty of fine. That's the force.

Basically it's a demand that people say something or face punishment. That's compelled speech.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Is he subject to a $250,000 fine for doing that?
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That would come under harassment.

Under penalty of fine. That's the force.

Basically it's a demand that people say something or face punishment. That's compelled speech.
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No. They are not being forced to say something. They are fined for willful conduct. For example, saying "man you're ugly" to a woman over and over at work is willful conduct.
 
AProudLefty said:
That would come under harassment.
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What other forms of harassment carry such a punitive fine?



No. They are not being forced to say something. They are fined for willful conduct.
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Sorry, fining people over words they say is forcing them to say or not say things.

For example, saying "man you're ugly" to a woman over and over at work is willful conduct.
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What's the fine?
 
CLAX1911 said:
What other forms of harassment carry such a punitive fine?



Sorry, fining people over words they say is forcing them to say or not say things.

What's the fine?
Click to expand...

Why ask me? We're talking abount fining for using the wrong pronouns.
 
Shouldn't this thread and the one entitled: "Should Intersexed people be forced into a gender/sex at birth?" be merged together ?
 
Visbek said:
"Your" definition trivializes the issue. "My" definition recognizes that gender is not the same thing as sex.

It's also not "mine" in any way, shape or form. I'm relying on medical professionals, who recognize that gender dysphoria (which, to be clear, does not apply to all transgender individuals) is a serious condition, not something made up by people who desire to be oppressed (which is, yeah, pretty much no one).
What Is Gender Dysphoria?



:roll:

As I already pointed out: Statements like that do not magically establish that your view of reality is 100% true and correct for everything. In fact, your view is deeply flawed, because it fails to recognize that gender is a social, not biological, construct. All they do, to put it charitably (and within the posting guidelines...), is show your own total lack of understanding of the situation, almost certainly due to your own biases.

As to the legal penalties? I don't know (or care really) where you live, so I have no idea what penalties apply. However, the history of civil rights is full of people who proclaim that rejections of racism, sexism, homophobia, religious discrimination and so on are "fantasies" whose protection they "resent." So yeah, I'm not really finding your desire to disrespect and discriminate against transgender people all that persuasive.
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Your "wokeness" is duly noted.

Are there any other actual real world facts that need to be ignored in order to make people who are literally NOT what they want me to think they are?

I am not asserting that a woman who demands that I recognize her as a man is anything less or more than she is.

Her biological state of being is what it is. That is what it is stuff also extends to her height, weight, attitudes and general disposition.

If she also asserts that she's 7 feet tall, am I to compelled to treat her as if she is a giant?

Along with that is any other descriptor including innate talents or gifts that she may or may not possess and employ. If he/she cannot sing well but is singing loudly next to me on a bus, am I now compelled to applaud when she takes a bow?

Why do you demand that I be blind to reality in order to satisfy some odd world view possessed by another for no worldly reason?

There is no qualitative or judgmental action involved in seeing what is real as being real. It is only what it is. My reaction may be to allow the illusion to maintain. I'm not demanded to burst or protect anyone's bubble.

If there is a man who believes in his heart that he's a woman, I don't really care in any meaningful way. If he wants to change my actions based on his heart felt belief, that's a different story.

Tell me: Why is the dysphoria related to a person whose body is the wrong gender any more legitimate than the dysphoria related to the person whose body is the wrong age?

I can't even count the number of times I've looked in the mirror and was legitimately surprised by how old I look. Admittedly, it happens less frequently as my condition advances.

Being surprised by the real world, though, does not change the real world. I'm starting to accept that I am aging.
 
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AProudLefty said:
I thought you said you could read? You claimed that they can be fined for using the wrong pronoun.
I'll guide you since you have difficulty reading.
"
"Discrimination against a transgender individual could result in fines of up to $250,000, but these fines won’t be handed out for accidentally misusing pronouns"
Click to expand...

"Won't be" does not mean "Can't be".

Does anyone speak English anymore?
 
CLAX1911 said:
No no no. Victimhood isn't about achievement achievement works the same way and always has. Victimhood is about blame being placed on others for why you can't achieve anything rather than on yourself.

All these victims complain about how it isn't fair. Is if life is supposed to be. How there's some cabal of people holding them back. It's transference of blame from themselves onto this conspiracy they have fabricated.

Did you wonder why race relations got worse after we elected a black president? It's because our nation isn't really racist. And the people who use that as an excuse for underachieving desperately don't want to lose that ability. So they spin the narrative.
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Racism and victimhood are not really related in an internalized, individual sense.

A racist can be a racist with no one else on the planet being a victim. If the intended victim of the racist's hate is unaware of the hate, the intended victim is not actually a victim. The hate is wasted.

Conversely, the victim can be a victim in his mind when no external oppression actually exists. If the imagined oppression is attached to a racist or a coach or a teacher or a boss, the imagined can be unreal in reality but very real in the psychosis.

Did racism actually get worse during the Obama years? I'm not sure of that in any way. Did the racist label get more widely used? That is probably accurate.

It seemed like anyone who disagreed with a Liberal was suddenly labeled as a racist. Especially if the "anyone" in question was winning an argument with a Liberal.

One of my favorite examples was when David Webb was dismissed by the idiot, also Black, arguing with him as not understanding due to his "White Privilege".

You can't really blame Liberals, though. They have been taught that logic is unneeded if they are politically correct.

At some point during the Obama Administration, another injustice had occurred in Africa. Western diplomats traveled there and walked arm in arm with local leaders to demonstrate solidarity.

A member of our Fake News elite referred to the black, local African leaders as "African Americans". This kind of stuff is revealing and very, very funny. Idiots using stupidity and bias to "inform" us.

Question: When a reporter editorializes accidentally calling actual Africans "African Americans", doesn't this reveal actual, real world racism?
 
AProudLefty said:
So we're all neurotic because we all are something we don't like so we continually try to improve ourselves to what we like or think society or opposite sexes? :lamo
You really walked into that one. Think before you talk.:lol:
Click to expand...

Nice try, but a complete swing and a miss.

"We set goals in the hope that we will become the person who can achieve them".

For instance, if you are a gifted athlete of the right physical size, you may set the goal of becoming a professional. The successful attainment of that goal is daunting. the percent of the successful is very small.

IF you have the physical gifts, you need to avoid injury, distraction, sicknesses, accidents and bad habits. You need to be the beneficiary of hundreds, maybe thousands of helpful accidents.

In professional athletics, the numbers don't lie. Either you produce or you don't. If you don't produce, there are thousands waiting to take your place.

Now, when your abilities are exposed to be insufficient to manifest in fulfilling your goals, if you continue to believe in your heart that you are the next Brady or James or Federer, THAT is not reality. You are suffering a dysphoria.

On the other hand, you might be Tom Brady, one of 7 Billion, and then you will be known as the GOAT. I assume that there are other folks who had similar goals, but not similar outcomes.

Reality is real. That's one of the problems with reality. It's just so real!

In passing, a man who is a man and goes through all of the various operations and so forth to become a woman is a man who goes through all of the various operations and so forth to become a woman.

In many ways, it's sad that the actuality of the individual's self image was so detested by the individual. Rather like a short person who hates being short.

I can feel empathy for the dysphoria that led to the chain of decisions made, but I can also be aware that the 6'2", 200 pound former Olympian was re-engineered and is maintained artificially, not naturally.

Like Tom Brady, much is just dumb luck and much is by design. In the case of Jenner, whatever the combination of luck and design might have been, to at least some degree, desperation and dissatisfaction played a role in his latest rebirth.

It seems impossible, even if you really admire his newly established identity, to not feel sympathy for whatever dissatisfactions or miseries led to making the series of steps required for this outcome.
 
code1211 said:
AProudLefty said:
I thought you said you could read? You claimed that they can be fined for using the wrong pronoun.
I'll guide you since you have difficulty reading.
"
"Discrimination against a transgender individual could result in fines of up to $250,000, but these fines won’t be handed out for accidentally misusing pronouns"
Click to expand...

"Won't be" does not mean "Can't be".

Does anyone speak English anymore?
Click to expand...
What's more, the dispensation in the rule AProudLefty cites as benign applies only to "accidental" use. So deliberate use is fined. And who decides what is "accidental" and what is "deliberate" -- an unreachable subjective distinction?
 
code1211 said:
Are there any other actual real world facts that need to be ignored in order to make people who are literally NOT what they want me to think they are?
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:roll:

You are blatantly ignoring the actual real world fact that "gender ≠ sex."


I am not asserting that a woman who demands that I recognize her as a man is anything less or more than she is.
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Yes, you are. You are ignoring the fact that HE has actual reasons, which in many cases likely has a biological/neurological dimension, to be classified as a man.


Her biological state of being is what it is. That is what it is stuff also extends to her height, weight, attitudes and general disposition.
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No, it isn't.

1) There may well be biological/neurological reasons for the individual's extreme discomfort.
2) Biological sex doesn't have much impact on one's height or weight. It has almost no impact on one's attitudes and general disposition, and in fact such claims are vastly overstated, cherry-picked and otherwise deeply flawed. (See Gender Mosaic by Daphna Joel, | Hachette Book Group for more information on that point)


If she also asserts that she's 7 feet tall, am I to compelled to treat her as if she is a giant?
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Again: Transgender individuals are not denying biological facts. A transgender person is often painfully aware of the mismatch between specific elements of their biology, and how they experience their own gender.

Your attempts to trivialize this, basically just so you can disrespect those individuals with impunity, only show your own prejudices and biases.


Why do you demand that I be blind to reality in order to satisfy some odd world view possessed by another for no worldly reason?
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No one is asking you to be blind to anything. We're telling you to recognize the reality that gender ≠ sex.


I'm not demanded to burst or protect anyone's bubble.
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You're disrespecting the individual's identity. Every post you're making in this thread is permeated with that disrespect. I assure you, it's not a good look for you.


If there is a man who believes in his heart that he's a woman, I don't really care in any meaningful way. If he wants to change my actions based on his heart felt belief, that's a different story.
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Odd, it looks like the same story to me -- that story being "code1211 wants to disrespect people without any consequences."

Nor is it clear which "actions" you are required to change -- it's not like there is any cost or consequences to you when you use the correct (i.e. respectful) gender pronouns for a transgender individual. It's pretty clear this is not about some massive unfair burden on you, it's about your desire to marginalize and disrespect transgender individuals with impunity.


Tell me: Why is the dysphoria related to a person whose body is the wrong gender any more legitimate than the dysphoria related to the person whose body is the wrong age?
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:roll:

1) There is no evidence that "age dysphoria" is a genuine issue.
2) Your proposals are obviously made in bad faith, and you're fooling no one on that score.
 
why do we as a civilization need to determine a person's gender.

I suppose some sports do but what else ?
 
Angel said:
What's more, the dispensation in the rule AProudLefty cites as benign applies only to "accidental" use. So deliberate use is fined. And who decides what is "accidental" and what is "deliberate" -- an unreachable subjective distinction?
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Exactly!

This is demonstrated every day in our media.

Trudeau is a moron in Black Face and his repeated racist actions are deemed to be harmless since his heart is known to be pure. Nobody even cares his hand is on the girl's chest. What's up with that?





Others have been stripped of their careers and ability to make a living for merely speaking of Black Face.

The Thought Police are not impartial arbiters of truth. They are disseminators of retribution in answer to opposition to their dogma.

Why the Liberal Sheeple intentionally surrender their freedoms and rights to these totalitarians is beyond me.

Ignorance is a driver of many stupid actions.
 
Visbek said:
:roll:

You are blatantly ignoring the actual real world fact that "gender ≠ sex."



Yes, you are. You are ignoring the fact that HE has actual reasons, which in many cases likely has a biological/neurological dimension, to be classified as a man.



No, it isn't.

1) There may well be biological/neurological reasons for the individual's extreme discomfort.
2) Biological sex doesn't have much impact on one's height or weight. It has almost no impact on one's attitudes and general disposition, and in fact such claims are vastly overstated, cherry-picked and otherwise deeply flawed. (See Gender Mosaic by Daphna Joel, | Hachette Book Group for more information on that point)



Again: Transgender individuals are not denying biological facts. A transgender person is often painfully aware of the mismatch between specific elements of their biology, and how they experience their own gender.

Your attempts to trivialize this, basically just so you can disrespect those individuals with impunity, only show your own prejudices and biases.



No one is asking you to be blind to anything. We're telling you to recognize the reality that gender ≠ sex.



You're disrespecting the individual's identity. Every post you're making in this thread is permeated with that disrespect. I assure you, it's not a good look for you.



Odd, it looks like the same story to me -- that story being "code1211 wants to disrespect people without any consequences."

Nor is it clear which "actions" you are required to change -- it's not like there is any cost or consequences to you when you use the correct (i.e. respectful) gender pronouns for a transgender individual. It's pretty clear this is not about some massive unfair burden on you, it's about your desire to marginalize and disrespect transgender individuals with impunity.



:roll:

1) There is no evidence that "age dysphoria" is a genuine issue.
2) Your proposals are obviously made in bad faith, and you're fooling no one on that score.
Click to expand...

Robert Kennedy said, "Some men see things as they are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were, and ask why not.".

That is a noble and hopeful life model to follow in some areas of life and works well in testing the initial steps for creating a plan of action.

Things have changed over the years in the minds the Liberal elitists.

Now folks like you look at things as they are and say they are something else entirely removed from reality.

You were previously asserting that the folks who are suffering from gender dysphoria were suffering from gender dysphoria.

Now you are claiming that the folks suffering from gender dysphoria are actually not suffering from any kind of dysphoria and are in truth not what they obviously are.

Is there circus music playing on a loop in your computer?

Why are Liberals so committed to denying reality and advancing fantasy in its place?

Regarding changing my actions: Your crowd DEMANDS that I support the fantasies of the folks who have decided that they are not what they are. Real world legal jeopardy for other worldly self image is ridiculous.

Whether they are short and demand to be known as tall or male and demand to be known as female is inconsequential to me.

I can accept that they are exactly what they are. Accepting that they are not what they actually are is something utterly stupid.

Why do you demand that these people be lied to? Beyond that, if these people are what they are, why do they demand to be lied to? It seems like an odd desire.

If there is a man who believes he is a woman, why is that a bad thing in your mind? Why is recognizing actuality considered by you to be bad? Why is the actual state of being of anyone a thing to be reviled in your belief system?

There should be required reading before any Liberal is moved to communicate thoughts.

Hans Christian Andersen : The Emperor's New Clothes
 
code1211 said:
Now folks like you look at things as they are and say they are something else entirely removed from reality.
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No, we are recognizing that gender is not the same thing as biology. Learn to read.


You were previously asserting that the folks who are suffering from gender dysphoria were suffering from gender dysphoria.

Now you are claiming that the folks suffering from gender dysphoria are actually not suffering from any kind of dysphoria and are in truth not what they obviously are.
Click to expand...
:roll:

I said nothing of the sort. Learn to read.


Why are Liberals so committed to denying reality and advancing fantasy in its place?
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Again: Those of us who support transgender rights are recognizing reality. You're the one denying it.


Your crowd DEMANDS that I support the fantasies of the folks who have decided that they are not what they are. Real world legal jeopardy for other worldly self image is ridiculous.
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"My crowd" protects civil rights. "Your crowd" wants to violate them with impunity.


I can accept that they are exactly what they are. Accepting that they are not what they actually are is something utterly stupid.
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"What they are" is transgender, which means that you should use the pronouns they tell you to use. You're contradicting yourself, because you refuse to acknowledge "exactly what they are."


Why do you demand that these people be lied to?
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:roll:

Those who support transgender civil rights are the honest ones in this debate. Those who oppose transgender civil rights are only fighting for the right to disrespect and discriminate against transgender individuals.


If there is a man who believes he is a woman, why is that a bad thing in your mind?
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:roll:

If there is someone whose biological sex is male who is experiencing gender dysphoria, then that means they are in serious distress as a result between the mismatch of their biological sex and gender identity. The "bad thing" is the suffering experienced by the person, including any disrespect and discrimination by those who refuse to understand. To the best of our current knowledge, using the wrong pronouns compounds that distress. Thus, you should use the pronouns that the transgender individual chooses, rather than one based on your assumptions about their genitals at birth.


There should be required reading before any Liberal is moved to communicate thoughts.
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Those who refuse to acknowledge the civil rights of transgender individuals should take a tip from this song before they are moved to communicate thoughts.

 
Angel said:
What's more, the dispensation in the rule AProudLefty cites as benign applies only to "accidental" use. So deliberate use is fined. And who decides what is "accidental" and what is "deliberate" -- an unreachable subjective distinction?
Click to expand...

"Hey asshole will you please go get me coffee."
Deliberate or not?
"Hey sexy, will you please get me a cup of coffee?"
Deliberate or not?

You're intelligent enough not to post that pretentious post.
 
AProudLefty said:
"Hey asshole will you please go get me coffee."
Deliberate or not?
"Hey sexy, will you please get me a cup of coffee?"
Deliberate or not?

You're intelligent enough not to post that pretentious post.
Click to expand...
And you're intelligent enough to understand that getting fined for deliberate use of a pronoun drives home your opponent's point.
 
Angel said:
And you're intelligent enough to understand that getting fined for deliberate use of a pronoun drives home your opponent's point.
Click to expand...

Nope. The fine is for willful conduct. Do you disagree with protection for women against harassment in workplace? Maybe we don't know if they're deliberate?
 
code1211 said:
...You can be fined for not calling people ‘ze’ or ‘hir,’ if that’s the pronoun they demand that you use
Click to expand...
AProudLefty said:
I thought you said you could read? You claimed that they can be fined for using the wrong pronoun.
I'll guide you since you have difficulty reading.
"
"Discrimination against a transgender individual could result in fines of up to $250,000, but these fines won’t be handed out for accidentally misusing pronouns"
Click to expand...
Angel said:
And you're intelligent enough to understand that getting fined for deliberate use of a pronoun drives home your opponent's point.
Click to expand...
AProudLefty said:
Nope. The fine is for willful conduct...
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Yup.
The reference to the workplace rule or law supports exactly what code1211 claimed, namely, that "You can be fined for not calling people ‘ze’ or ‘hir,’ if that’s the pronoun they demand that you use."
 
Angel said:
Yup.
The reference to the workplace rule or law supports exactly what code1211 claimed, namely, that "You can be fined for not calling people ‘ze’ or ‘hir,’ if that’s the pronoun they demand that you use."
Click to expand...

Who said that they could be fined for not calling them ze or hir? It isn't in the guideline. It is about harassment/discrimination based on their transgenderism, just like sexual harassment. Besides I have never heard of anyone calling them by those pronouns.
 
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