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Thread: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

  1. #141
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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    snipped for length
    1. I have no more interest in the rite of passage stories of people discovering what sex they like to poke than in my hearing of any other over worked narrative of self-esteem discovery - be it gay, religious, addiction redemption, or fat pride testimony. The drumbeat of "look at me" identity and self-esteem movements is a bottomless public acting out, mostly of benefit to the insatiably resentful axe-grinders, but not to the other 95 percent of humanity who deals with its own individual angels and demons (without the need of such ego soothing collectivized pride clap-trap).

    2. Of course it is a "single issue identity movement', meaning that the REAL issue is what benefits vs what harms an identity group. The gay identity pride movement is not about universalist issues of welfare, education, Medicare for all, saving the environment or national defense. It's not based on good character, a religious mission, or altruistic accomplishments; it is purely a special interest based group that seeks special social approval and benefits for the few and sacrifices from the many BECAUSE of their "special" sexual identity.

    To that end, it is not about taking responsibility for this issue of one's one own self healing and moving on; it is about finding community in blaming others for their understandable reactions to a biological and behavioral abnormality. Gay Pride offers the alienated refuge from dealing with their own nagging sense of social illegitimacy, their strangeness to the whole, their own personal shortcomings and failures. Yet the movement does not provide normality in the whole, rather it provides a refuge in the sectarian and comforting righteous identity for the abnormal.

    In short, the gay pride movement members must feel special and alienated in order find refuge in the comforts of collective, familial, identity.

    3) Comfort in alienation requires eternal grievances. As such, the movement will always insist that it has further to go because otherwise identity pride becomes irrelevant to the members meaningful existence - without gay identity the person must earn their legitimacy on their true self. The knowledge of "who they really are" becomes a threat to the illusion of self. Do they beat their spouse? Mistreat their children? Cheat their employer? Lie? Steal? or gamble away the mortgage payment? All the mundane character questions faced by those who have lived their lives without avoidance by bragging over their family, religion, class, or good (or bad) fortune.

    4) Comfort in alienation also requires reliving the history of the dead, retelling the story of individuals who didn't know they'd be adopted into a 'group' movement 50 or 100 years hence, long after such stories have become irrelevant. In fact, the less the contemporary oppression the more it REQUIRES the fueling of identity with more history of the dead - a history that the identity movement INSISTS must be expanded and fed to everyone in society. Hence, such identity propaganda insists it must pass on a grievance to (and implicitly against) those who never committed a grievance, for the benefit of those who currently never suffered from it.

    5) Finally, I have no sympathy for any movement based on "pride" over a biological or random event (such as sex or sexual orientation). I find it as intellectually disgusting as "IQ pride", "disability pride", "class pride", "race pride" or "family history pride". Hubris movements are, at their root, end up be insulting to others. They are vain, self-centered, inflexible, doctrinaire, divisive, blinding, intolerant and arrogant. They are one of the seven sins for good reason.

    Finally, note that the historical insecurity of individuals for behavior that was too flagrant and disreputable in some circles was a source of personal insecurity but had nothing to do with group identity (which didn't exist) or political movements. None of this has a thimble of relevancy to the current gay pride movement where-in there is no good reason for insecurity EXCEPT for the subliminal knowledge, the natural knowing, of an abnormality being discomforting EVEN to the abnormal.

    This has nothing to do with majority oppression or values indoctrination; it has to do with a natural understanding that every flock of sheep knows, as well as the errant goat, they aren't members of the same flock.
    Last edited by maxparrish; 08-14-19 at 11:26 PM.

  2. #142
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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    I find it telling that you chose to focus on the assless chaps and dildos instead of really discussing the topic.
    It's hard not to see. That outside of the rainbow flags is the only way you can tell it's pride.

    You can make all the innuendo you wish about me being gay.

  3. #143
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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    We do not feel pride in' being gay' or in our sexuality at all. Gay pride is about the personal coming out process and how we handled those challenges.

    We feel personal and collective pride in how we responded to the social pressure, the stigma, the systemic efforts to shame and control us by the majority throughout decades and centuries of repression.


    The Pride March performs three different but interconnected functions .
    1. Celebrates all those individual personal victories in a public forum. Its sort of a public 'Victory Dance' over the cultural and social efforts to shame us into compliance and submission. This is a party with balloons and streamers and a theme. Its supposed be fun, cheeky, a bit wild, but it is not a really a super exclusive or private party. Just like most parties, gay people tend invite some straight guests along as their 'plus ones'. Of course there are always social tensions that complicate who gets invited and who is unwelcome at even the most open 'bring your own beer' house parties. We have our politics and egos too!
    2. Represents a political statement in support of gay rights activism. This is essentially the same role that every other political protest performs whether it is a pro life march or anti war demonstration. It seeks media attention on the 'cause', and demands reform of perceived social and legal injustices. Activism is about confronting the status quo, and provoking a response. Immoderate and Intemperate speech is what all political protests are about. You don't bring your 'indoor voice' or your diplomats to a political demonstration.
    3. It reinforces the collective ties within the LBGTQ subculture ( its 'counter-cultural' identity) and its sense of community. Subcultures can identify behind a religion, and ethnicity, a geographic area, or a set of mutual experiences. Like many other subcultures, The queer counter-culture originated as a negative response to the prevailing culture. It developed its own argot, symbols, style, musical and theatrical art, and memes.

    The functions of gay pride marches, and their role in defining the relationship of the queer community to the broader straight culture will inevitably change and adapt over time and what purpose they need to serve both within the queer community, and in relation to exterior forces in the city they are being held in . How much 'party' we bring to it, how much political posturing we bring to it, and how much subcultural unity we want to stress, is up for grabs!

    Not a lot of this translates well to 'straight pride march' but as far as I am concerned, who am I as a gay man, to tell you straights you can't try to find a purpose buried in there somewhere to march about.

    The worry comes when the majority with the power and historic propensity to discriminate, bully and marginalize a minority, isn't very careful in its messaging, and packaging of its protest themes, it can become an excuse to do the same thing it did before.

    When you have 85% membership in your big club, you are obligated to be more circumspect and careful than the 15% do in their little club.
    Yet all people see is the perverted side of it.

    I'm all for people coming out and learning to be comfortable with who they are. But presenting the image that pride has is not good for anybody.

    If things change and life gets harder for us the excuse will be the pride parade.
    Last edited by CLAX1911; 08-14-19 at 11:38 PM.

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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    When did excessive pride become a virtue?
    I've had the same thought. Since when did the virtue of humility disappear, and the sin of pride replace it? Although times of have changed, I do remember an era in which the young were taught the importance of honesty, truth, selflessness, self-reliance, kindness, and humbleness as necessary for good character. But braggartry, vanity, greed, dishonesty, selfishness, pride, etc. were not.

    Today the values seem to have regressed to the honoring the attributes of spoiled children as something to be honored: "pride", "acting out", harassment, verbal assaults, fake accusations, and offense are now acts of "good character" against "them", or so it would seem.

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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Yet all people see is the perverted side of it.

    I'm all for people coming out and learning to be comfortable with who they are. But presenting the image that pride has is not good for anybody.

    If things change and life gets harder for us the excuse will be the pride parade.
    I think I see your point but its not about the pride parade itself. Cultural Reform movements have stages to them. there is a baby stage a toddler stage, kid stage, a teenage stage and an adult stage. A lot of the gay counter-culture memes, and values of the 70's, reflected the anger, the separation, and the search for independence and identity issues of that teenage stage. Few feminists these days are burning bras, or going topless like the were back then, and today's black leaders are not holding on the Black Panther symbolism and rage.

    Part of me thinks its time to let go of some of that 'anti-hetero-normative' more sexualized stereotyped images of that past era. Now that we can be parents, soldiers, spouses, teachers etc, and more of us are claiming those titles as our primary ones, we want a parade that represents a different, less confrontational, less defiant, less sexualized image of us Many think those old stereotypes are holding us back.

    But there are a couple of problems. 1. Our trans brothers and sisters are WELL aware that those same instincts led many of us to abandon the Drag Queens of the 70's as an 'embarrassment'. Frankly in many ways we were fair weather allies at best, for transvestites, and transsexuals. We preferred they come in through the service entrance, and they are not going to tolerate that a second time. 2. A lot of us are angrier than ever, despite the weddings, and the rights we enjoy today. They lost an entire generation of friends, and lovers to AIDS, while straight Americans did next to nothing throughout the 80's but shift blame, and break promises, and tell them to wait. They bathe, fed and took care of each other as one, then two, then five then ten members of their circle wasted away.

    I think we will end up with a very different Gay Pride parade as time goes on, where those 'asschaps' are less frequent, the nudity is less pronounced and the marching 7 foot tall condoms drift out of the line but its going to take time.

  6. #146
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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    I think I see your point but its not about the pride parade itself. Cultural Reform movements have stages to them. there is a baby stage a toddler stage, kid stage, a teenage stage and an adult stage. A lot of the gay counter-culture memes, and values of the 70's, reflected the anger, the separation, and the search for independence and identity issues of that teenage stage. Few feminists these days are burning bras, or going topless like the were back then, and today's black leaders are not holding on the Black Panther symbolism and rage.
    this cultural reform is pretty much finished we passed the final frontier with same-sex marriage.

    Part of me thinks its time to let go of some of that 'anti-hetero-normative' more sexualized stereotyped images of that past era. Now that we can be parents, soldiers, spouses, teachers etc, and more of us are claiming those titles as our primary ones, we want a parade that represents a different, less confrontational, less defiant, less sexualized image of us Many think those old stereotypes are holding us back.
    I think it's time to put away such childish things.

    But there are a couple of problems. 1. Our trans brothers and sisters are WELL aware that those same instincts led many of us to abandon the Drag Queens of the 70's as an 'embarrassment'. Frankly in many ways we were fair weather allies at best, for transvestites, and transsexuals. We preferred they come in through the service entrance, and they are not going to tolerate that a second time. 2. A lot of us are angrier than ever, despite the weddings, and the rights we enjoy today. They lost an entire generation of friends, and lovers to AIDS, while straight Americans did next to nothing throughout the 80's but shift blame, and break promises, and tell them to wait. They bathe, fed and took care of each other as one, then two, then five then ten members of their circle wasted away.
    not sure what that has to do with the parade.

    I think we will end up with a very different Gay Pride parade as time goes on, where those 'asschaps' are less frequent, the nudity is less pronounced and the marching 7 foot tall condoms drift out of the line but its going to take time.
    I I think at some point we're going to have to push them out. Some people just want to be free to be themselves others want the whole world to watch as they act as disgusting as they possibly can.

    We also have the pedophiles trying to muscle in.

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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    It's hard not to see. That outside of the rainbow flags is the only way you can tell it's pride.

    You can make all the innuendo you wish about me being gay.
    When he chose fo focus on insignificant things the media likes to magnify instead of actually be serious and discuss the topic, it tells me all I need to know about him.
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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    [Snipped reluctantly in order to make the automatic length-limit on posts. Readers are directed to the full post above at #141]

    ...

    5) Finally, I have no sympathy for any movement based on "pride" over a biological or random event (such as sex or sexual orientation). I find it as intellectually disgusting as "IQ pride", "disability pride", "class pride", "race pride" or "family history pride". Hubris movements are, at their root, end up be insulting to others. They are vain, self-centered, inflexible, doctrinaire, divisive, blinding, intolerant and arrogant. They are one of the seven sins for good reason.

    Finally, note that the historical insecurity of individuals for behavior that was too flagrant and disreputable in some circles was a source of personal insecurity but had nothing to do with group identity (which didn't exist) or political movements. None of this has a thimble of relevancy to the current gay pride movement where-in there is no good reason for insecurity EXCEPT for the subliminal knowledge, the natural knowing, of an abnormality being discomforting EVEN to the abnormal.

    This has nothing to do with majority oppression or values indoctrination; it has to do with a natural understanding that every flock of sheep knows, as well as the errant goat, they aren't members of the same flock.
    This is as powerful and eloquent an argument AGAINST IDENTITY POLITICS as ever I've come across. (I capitalize the broader subject of your post to avert petty replies, though I daresay I will be surprised if any replies are forthcoming inasmuch as your discourse runs too deep for the partisan soul to fathom.) Your discursive chops are impressive. I'm tempted to inquire about your background, so impressed am I by your writing and your thinking, but that really is none of my business, or anyone else's for that matter. Where have you been hiding? Why haven't I read a post of yours before this? (These questions are rhetorical and addressed to myself,) I assume, with eight years and over four thousand posts on your record, we've just missed each other for the different forums we frequent. In a word, a wonderful post!
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    Re: What 'gay pride' is, and how it is manifested in the gay pride march.

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    When he chose fo focus on insignificant things the media likes to magnify instead of actually be serious and discuss the topic, it tells me all I need to know about him.
    It's pretty prominent. and it doesn't matter how insignificant it is it's there and nobody does anything about it. It's just allowed to happen.

    That's why you have things like pedophiles trying to muscle in on the LGBT status.

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