Sexual Misconduct

30 celebrities accused of sexual assault since Harvey Weinstein
30 celebrities accused of sexual assault since Harvey Weinstein
Here Are All the Public Figures Who Have Been Accused of Sexual Misconduct After Harvey Weinstein
Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey: More Men Accused of Assault | Time
After Harvey Weinstein: These Celebrity Men Have Been Accused of Sexual Misconduct
After Harvey Weinstein: These Celebrity Men Have Been Accused of Sexual Misconduct
The list: Celebrities accused of sexual misconduct
The list: Celebrities accused of sexual misconduct - The Morning Call
Answer to thread quote ID.
Charlie Rose - Wikipedia

***


This thread completes the trilogy of threads posted by Angel in the Sex and Sexuality forum:​

Don't be famous and try to sleep with people.

All of them, and me too, as often as possible with my wife. I don't apologize. I celebrate each and every time. When I wasn't married, before and between the two major relationships in my life, I was not a monk. Again, I don't apologize and never forced myself on anyone, but certainly made unwelcome advances, suffering the consequences.

Meh...the pendulum had to swing back at some point... :shrug:

There's always people who get burned in changing times. Were all of these guys douchebags? Can't say, not being able to review any investigations. Thankfully most of these guys are old and rich and don't stand to lose much, and will lead a better life than most of us will, even from under their "cloud of shame"...hehe...

In the meantime, they are examples to a whole other generation of men who will hopefully do better in this regard than previous ones. These accusations would get no traction if there wasn't a bigger overall problem.

Satan...he pulls the strings...and you left out all the religious sexual nut cases...Satan is not prejudiced...

OlNate said:

Meh...the pendulum had to swing back at some point...
These accusations would get no traction if there wasn't a bigger overall problem.

Click to expand...

Two truths here. That pendulum has been swinging both ways in America for a long time, probably from its initial Puritan swing.
And it is always symptomatic, and not the problem itself.
What do you think the "bigger overall problem" is today? Or is it always the same problem?

Angel said:

Two truths here. That pendulum has been swinging both ways in America for a long time, probably from its initial Puritan swing.
And it is always symptomatic, and not the problem itself.
What do you think the "bigger overall problem" is today? Or is it always the same problem?

Click to expand...

Well, on this particular issue, I think the problem is and has been the way that men have historically treated women, in general.

Elvira said:

Satan...he pulls the strings...and you left out all the religious sexual nut cases...Satan is not prejudiced...

Click to expand...

I actually just spoke to Satan, and he said it wasn't him. It was actually Ted pulling those strings.

It was Ted all along.

Where are the pictures of priests and bishops?

This is why I don't have sex with recording it and getting the sheep to sign a waiver.

Angel said:

One expects an "Amen" to follow
It has become the national prayer

Click to expand...

Here we go

What is it that everyone is repenting publicly for?

Click to expand...

Did you not read your own links? They're accused of sexual harassment and/or assault and/or rape. Different individuals are accused of different actions.

And why are reputations and careers being ruined despite the public prayer of apology?

Click to expand...

Because most of them aren't actually apologizing or doing anything to make amends, or ask for forgiveness.

Some of those accused of misconduct or criminal behavior didn't admit anything, let alone apologize. They deny the allegations, they rationalize their behavior, they fight it in court, they demonize their victims and so on.

Many who tried to apologize did a horrible job of it, which undermines their claims of contrition. E.g. Mario Batali was accused of harassing multiple women (9 iirc), and assaulting at least one woman. He then basically had his PR staff write up an apology, put it into his weekly newsletter, and then tacked on a recipe for cinnamon rolls. Should that type of "apology" convince prosecutors to drop the case?

Or: Louis CK spent years denying and suppressing stories of his harassment and misconduct, including telling the press "that's not real." It took repeated claims by women, who were putting their jobs on the line by publicly accusing CK, before he admitted (via a press release) that the NYT nailed him. His "apology" was anything but, it was a string of rationalizations. He sought redemption by... moving to France for a few months, and upon moving back to the US, cracked jokes about sexual harassment during his new stand-up set. Only a fool would see that as a genuine quest for atonement.

The handful that did express genuine contrition for non-criminal acts (e.g. Dan Harmon) have, for the most part, earned forgiveness. Dan largely outed himself, apologized personally to the affected individual, and did a big mea culpa where he did not excuse his behavior. (He also apparently didn't have dozens of victims.) So yes, in some circumstances, the individual can earn forgiveness from much of the public.

How is it that all these publicly disgraced sinners are men, and powerful men at that?

Click to expand...

Because men are far more likely to be in power; and men in power are more likely to abuse their positions of power than women. What are you, new?

Plus, there are lots of other accusations against people who aren't celebrities. We just aren't likely to hear about them in the news.

Who manipulates the strings of the marionettes driving our public discourse on sexual misconduct?

Click to expand...

Uh... that would be "no one."

Have these men been sacrificed for our sins?

Click to expand...

HARD NO.

They are individuals, who should be held accountable for their own actions. They're also just the tip of the iceberg, since it is still difficult and damaging for the women to come forward with allegations of harassment, abuse, assault or rape. The whole "they're suffering for us!" language is absurd.

The men do deserve due process, and that's a complex issue on all sides. However, we have no obligation to hand out forgiveness like it's candy on Halloween, and sending an apology to PR Newswire does not show genuine contrition. Let's see some genuine remorse before we consider personally absolving them of their misconduct and/or crimes.

OlNate said:

Well, on this particular issue, I think the problem is and has been the way that men have historically treated women, in general.

Click to expand...

May be so. Some habits die hard. May be some women have become too sensitive, or whatever you want to call it. A look, a compliment, a touch on the shoulder. I would like to know the circumstances.

A bit of topic, but may be not too much.
I watched "the price is right" yesterday. Neighbor came over early and didn't want to miss it. I was busy in the kitchen, but happened to glance at the TV when a young woman, having won a Jaguar, jumped on Jay Leno. Man, he had to grab her somewhere so they both wouldn't fall. Just saying, all innocent but....

Lovebug said:

May be so. Some habits die hard. May be some women have become too sensitive, or whatever you want to call it. A look, a compliment, a touch on the shoulder. I would like to know the circumstances.

Click to expand...

A lot of these cases are already discussed in public.

....a young woman, having won a Jaguar, jumped on Jay Leno. Man, he had to grab her somewhere so they both wouldn't fall. Just saying, all innocent but....

Click to expand...

Do you really not understand the difference between a woman hugging a man, and a boss saying "blow me or I'll ruin your career"?

Visbek said:

A lot of these cases are already discussed in public.



Do you really not understand the difference between a woman hugging a man, and a boss saying "blow me or I'll ruin your career"?

Click to expand...

Meh, read the entire post.

Lovebug said:

May be so. Some habits die hard. May be some women have become too sensitive, or whatever you want to call it. A look, a compliment, a touch on the shoulder. I would like to know the circumstances.

A bit of topic, but may be not too much.
I watched "the price is right" yesterday. Neighbor came over early and didn't want to miss it. I was busy in the kitchen, but happened to glance at the TV when a young woman, having won a Jaguar, jumped on Jay Leno. Man, he had to grab her somewhere so they both wouldn't fall. Just saying, all innocent but....

Click to expand...

Honestly, I come into physical contact with women all the time, and at the workplace no less, and yet I've never received any complaints. I'd like to think it's due to my chiseled good looks and the super manly vibe I put out there (...lol...) but I think it just comes down to the fact that I don't go out of my way to be a creep. The idea that just looking at someone the wrong way will get you the chair, or something, isn't the reality.

Maybe some women are "over sensitive", I wouldn't know, I'm not one, so I don't pretend to understand their (your) experiences. I'm also old enough to notice a big change since I was a kid, and I regret that we, as men, have acted so badly that my son won't likely experience the "thrill of the hunt" (good grief, even the terms we used were telling), which, back when times were simpler, was a wonderful step in the process. He won't get to be an outrageous flirt, he won't get a much needed slap in order to learn his boundaries. I feel bad for him...until I think of all the daughter that (hopefully) won't have to go through all the garbage we put women through. Who knows, maybe he'll have a better time than I did... :shrug:

There may be some eye roll inducing moments, but overall we're moving in the right direction. Yes, that will cause discomfort for some, and perhaps even bring consequences. As one of the so-called "oppressed gender" (gotta love MRA's...hehe), I'm more than fine with that.

OlNate said:

Well, on this particular issue, I think the problem is and has been the way that men have historically treated women, in general.

Click to expand...

Another truth: look to history to understand the present.
But when you refer to "the way that men have historically treated women," what do you mean?
The history of the United States? Or the history of the world?
If you mean the former, and have in mind that women were considered second-class citizens until the early 20th century saw them get the right to vote, that was a hundred years ago; meanwhile that pendulum we spoke of earlier has swung back and forth at least three times.

Angel said:

Another truth: look to history to understand the present.
But when you refer to "the way that men have historically treated women," what do you mean?
The history of the United States? Or the history of the world?
If you mean the former, and have in mind that women were considered second-class citizens until the early 20th century saw them get the right to vote, that was a hundred years ago; meanwhile that pendulum we spoke of earlier has swung back and forth at least three times.

Click to expand...

haha...either the history of the United States or the history of the world would work in this conversation.

I'm interested to know what dates and events would signify the pendulum swinging back and forth three times.

Tanngrisnir said:

I actually just spoke to Satan, and he said it wasn't him. It was actually Ted pulling those strings.

It was Ted all along.

Click to expand...

Ted who?

Elvira said:

Ted who?

Click to expand...

Oh, sorry. Ted, the shoe counter guy at Monterey Lanes Bowling Alley in Monterey, CA.

It wasn't Satan after all. It was Ted.

OlNate said:

haha...either the history of the United States or the history of the world would work in this conversation.

I'm interested to know what dates and events would signify the pendulum swinging back and forth three times.

Click to expand...

Using the term "Puritanism" as the catch-all for chilling restrictive relations between men and women, our pendulum swung away from Purtitanism in the Jazz Age, back toward Puritanism in the Eisenhower era, then away from Puritanism in the Swinging Sixties and Seventies, and then back toward Puritanism in this latest swing of the pendulum.

I'm still interested to know what you meant by "the way that men have historically treated women," however.

OlNate said:

Honestly, I come into physical contact with women all the time, and at the workplace no less, and yet I've never received any complaints. I'd like to think it's due to my chiseled good looks and the super manly vibe I put out there (...lol...) but I think it just comes down to the fact that I don't go out of my way to be a creep. The idea that just looking at someone the wrong way will get you the chair, or something, isn't the reality.

Maybe some women are "over sensitive", I wouldn't know, I'm not one, so I don't pretend to understand their (your) experiences. I'm also old enough to notice a big change since I was a kid, and I regret that we, as men, have acted so badly that my son won't likely experience the "thrill of the hunt" (good grief, even the terms we used were telling), which, back when times were simpler, was a wonderful step in the process. He won't get to be an outrageous flirt, he won't get a much needed slap in order to learn his boundaries. I feel bad for him...until I think of all the daughter that (hopefully) won't have to go through all the garbage we put women through. Who knows, maybe he'll have a better time than I did... :shrug:

There may be some eye roll inducing moments, but overall we're moving in the right direction. Yes, that will cause discomfort for some, and perhaps even bring consequences. As one of the so-called "oppressed gender" (gotta love MRA's...hehe), I'm more than fine with that.

Click to expand...

Why won't your son get to be a flirt, outrageous or otherwise? Don't men and women still socialize in their free time?

Joe Biden

Visbek said:

...
Or: Louis CK spent years denying and suppressing stories of his harassment and misconduct, including telling the press "that's not real." It took repeated claims by women, who were putting their jobs on the line by publicly accusing CK, before he admitted (via a press release) that the NYT nailed him. His "apology" was anything but, it was a string of rationalizations. He sought redemption by... moving to France for a few months, and upon moving back to the US, cracked jokes about sexual harassment during his new stand-up set. Only a fool would see that as a genuine quest for atonement....

Click to expand...

There's much in your post that demands attention, but in order to keep whatever discussion is possible between us focused, let's begin with the bit I quote here, yes?

What does your account of the Louis CK case tell us about his misconduct? It tells me it was clearly non-criminal, that whether he denied or admitted it made no difference, and that because he is a self-employed artist he wasn't fired nor did he need to quit, and that the brouhaha over his behavior is joke-worthy.

How does it seem anything else to you, and why do you think Louis CK should seek redemption and has to atone for his conduct?

Angel said:

...
What do you think the "bigger overall problem" is today? Or is it always the same problem?

Click to expand...

OlNate said:

Well, on this particular issue, I think the problem is and has been the way that men have historically treated women, in general.

Click to expand...

What is problematic to you about "the way that men have historically treated women"?

Angel said:

What is problematic to you about "the way that men have historically treated women"?

Click to expand...

Umm...the whole women are property thing, for starters...? I'm giving you credit enough that I don't feel like I need to over explain this - really, the question is how would one think the way that men have historically treated women hasn't been problematic. But to provide some examples....

1) Rape culture (I'll let you use Google to work out that one, if you're not already informed)

2) Different treatment for sexual relations out of wedlock.

3) Enforced gender roles and limitations

4) Lack of voice in politics and religion

5) Lack of full person status

6) The presumption of men to attempt to legislate control over women's bodies in the abortion debate.

I mean...the list goes on forever, from the start of time, up until today, where things like gender based wage gaps are still being fiercely debated, and men are still engaging in sexually predatory behavior...albeit now with consequences, as women begin to report at a greater rate in the past - a good sign of empowerment and feeling like their complaints will be heard, unlike so often in the past.

I think you need to understand something fundamental. This is NOT a puritanical cycle. It could easily be argued that women have never before had such sexual freedom, and been willing to enjoy it, both in traditional dating and apps like Tinder. They are also more likely to explore beyond hetero boundaries. What you're calling puritan is nothing more than women having a say in things, which sometimes means saying "no", and "that's not cool", and "sorry, I'm just not into you". :shrug: I wasn't talking about a puritanical pendulum, I was talking about the pendulum of control.