• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Sexual Misconduct

OlNate said:
Umm...the whole women are property thing, for starters...?
Click to expand...
By "the whole women are property thing" are you referring to the law of coverture?
Coverture
Coverture - Wikipedia

The Legal Status of Women, 1776–1830
The Legal Status of Women, 1776–1830 | AP US History Study Guide from The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History

OlNate said:
...I think you need to understand something fundamental. This is NOT a puritanical cycle. It could easily be argued that women have never before had such sexual freedom, and been willing to enjoy it, both in traditional dating and apps like Tinder. They are also more likely to explore beyond hetero boundaries. What you're calling puritan is nothing more than women having a say in things, which sometimes means saying "no", and "that's not cool", and "sorry, I'm just not into you". :shrug: I wasn't talking about a puritanical pendulum, I was talking about the pendulum of control.
Click to expand...
No, I tried to make it clear that I was using the word "Puritanisn" in a specific way, namely:
Angel said:
Using the term "Puritanism" as the catch-all for chilling restrictive relations between men and women....
Click to expand...
What I am calling "Puritanism" is what the Jazz Age and the Swinging Sixties swung away from, in our pendulum conceit.
 
Visbek said:
...Did you not read your own links? They're accused of sexual harassment and/or assault and/or rape. Different individuals are accused of different actions.
Click to expand...
The OP, as well as most of the cases in the articles, is about non=criminal conduct. There are laws covering actual sexual assault and rape, and those cases belong in court -- real court.
Visbek said:
Because most of them aren't actually apologizing or doing anything to make amends, or ask for forgiveness.
Click to expand...
Apologizing and making amends for rape (according to you)?
Visbek said:
Some of those accused of misconduct or criminal behavior didn't admit anything, let alone apologize. They deny the allegations, they rationalize their behavior, they fight it in court, they demonize their victims and so on.
Click to expand...
In court? Except for Weinstein and Cosby, which of the 30-odd cases is in court? Or is even under investigation?
Visbek said:
...The handful that did express genuine contrition for non-criminal acts (e.g. Dan Harmon) have, for the most part, earned forgiveness. Dan largely outed himself, apologized personally to the affected individual, and did a big mea culpa where he did not excuse his behavior. (He also apparently didn't have dozens of victims.) So yes, in some circumstances, the individual can earn forgiveness from much of the public....
Click to expand...
Or by "court" do you mean the court of public opinion?
 
KevinKohler said:
Don't be famous and try to sleep with people.
Click to expand...
I think the message is much broader: If you don't want to be infamous, don't try to sleep with people, period.
New Puritanism on the march.
 
The Pillory

nDV0QIs.jpg


#MeToo
The New Pillory For a New Millennium​
 
Angel said:
I think the message is much broader: If you don't want to be infamous, don't try to sleep with people, period.
New Puritanism on the march.
Click to expand...

Utter hyperbole.

The problem is and always has been the abuse of power used to coerce sexual gratification. Keep your sex life out of the workplace. Get it on your own merit, not by taking advantage of your position of power.
 
devildavid said:
Utter hyperbole.

The problem is and always has been the abuse of power used to coerce sexual gratification. Keep your sex life out of the workplace. Get it on your own merit, not by taking advantage of your position of power.
Click to expand...
Utter nonsense.
 
OlNate said:
Umm...the whole women are property thing, for starters...? I'm giving you credit enough that I don't feel like I need to over explain this - really, the question is how would one think the way that men have historically treated women hasn't been problematic. But to provide some examples....

1) Rape culture (I'll let you use Google to work out that one, if you're not already informed)

2) Different treatment for sexual relations out of wedlock.

3) Enforced gender roles and limitations

4) Lack of voice in politics and religion

5) Lack of full person status

6) The presumption of men to attempt to legislate control over women's bodies in the abortion debate.
Click to expand...
I think "Rape Culture" covers all the items on your list -- a culture characterized by misogyny and sexism in all its forms. It may even include the remnants of the old law of coverture as well, "the whole women are property thing," as you put it.

If this condensation does not misrepresent your view, then can we agree that "the bigger problem" you referred to, which gives "traction" to the #MeToo Movement, is Rape Culture?

Is that a fair restatement of your view?
 
Angel said:
I think "Rape Culture" covers all the items on your list -- a culture characterized by misogyny and sexism in all its forms. It may even include the remnants of the old law of coverture as well, "the whole women are property thing," as you put it.

If this condensation does not misrepresent your view, then can we agree that "the bigger problem" you referred to, which gives "traction" to the #MeToo Movement, is Rape Culture?

Is that a fair restatement of your view?
Click to expand...


:lol: Tell you what...let's go with it as a fair restatement of my view now, and I'll let you know if you stray too far going forward. ;)

And just so that we're talking the same language, I'll throw this Wiki link as a fair definition of "Rape Culture". Let me know if you find any of it problematic.

Rape culture - Wikipedia

So...with that established, where are you taking me? :)
 
Angel said:
Utter nonsense.
Click to expand...

Yeah, right. Your notion that Americans are afraid to have sex is laughable and contrary to actual American behavior. Hyperbole at it's most obvious.
 
OlNate said:
:lol: Tell you what...let's go with it as a fair restatement of my view now, and I'll let you know if you stray too far going forward. ;)

And just so that we're talking the same language, I'll throw this Wiki link as a fair definition of "Rape Culture". Let me know if you find any of it problematic.

Rape culture - Wikipedia

So...with that established, where are you taking me? :)
Click to expand...
The Wiki link is fine with me as a touchstone. I fully accept as accurate the content of the concept as far as it goes -- inequality, sexism, misogyny; I object to the name of the concept as lurid and misleading, and misleading to the extent that it implies causation. But what's in a name, yes? The question is whether Rape Culture gives "traction" to the #MeToo Movement, yes?

By giving "traction" I take you to mean "gives standing to" or justifies the #MeToo Movement. Am I correct in this surmise?
 
Angel said:
The Wiki link is fine with me as a touchstone. I fully accept as accurate the content of the concept as far as it goes -- inequality, sexism, misogyny; I object to the name of the concept as lurid and misleading, and misleading to the extent that it implies causation. But what's in a name, yes? The question is whether Rape Culture gives "traction" to the #MeToo Movement, yes?

By giving "traction" I take you to mean "gives standing to" or justifies the #MeToo Movement. Am I correct in this surmise?
Click to expand...

Again, I'm going to say "sure". We'll get into the splitting of hairs once I figure out where you're going with this. ;) (Looking forward to it...)
 
OlNate said:
Again, I'm going to say "sure". We'll get into the splitting of hairs once I figure out where you're going with this. ;) (Looking forward to it...)
Click to expand...
Nothing up my sleeve, Nate. Just trying to situate us on the same page, is all. To avoid talking past each other or worse, misunderstanding each other.
It comes down to this really, our difference, that is:
You say "Meh" to the cultural phenomenon called #MeToo; I say "Oy!"
 
Angel said:
Nothing up my sleeve, Nate. Just trying to situate us on the same page, is all. To avoid talking past each other or worse, misunderstanding each other.
It comes down to this really, our difference, that is:
You say "Meh" to the cultural phenomenon called #MeToo; I say "Oy!"
Click to expand...

Mmm...not "meh" to the cultural phenomenon called #MeToo. I think it's a valid movement. More, it's "meh" to the reaction of outrage among male "victims". A few men with questionable pasts and unquestionable wealth being sacrificed on the alter seems like a weak exchange for the inequality experienced by women, and the wide range of consequences, all the way back to Eden.
 
OlNate said:
Mmm...not "meh" to the cultural phenomenon called #MeToo. I think it's a valid movement. More, it's "meh" to the reaction of outrage among male "victims". A few men with questionable pasts and unquestionable wealth being sacrificed on the alter seems like a weak exchange for the inequality experienced by women, and the wide range of consequences, all the way back to Eden.
Click to expand...
All right then. I mistook your "meh" and pendulum. Sorry. To be clear: you say "Aye" and I say "Oy" to #MeToo. That's where we stand here.
One point of clarification, however. Your "meh." you say, is directed at "the reaction of outrage among male 'victims'" -- but the OP is about the reaction of repentance among the "victims." Has there been a reaction of outrage as well from the "victims"? I know of a few lone voices of criticism of #MeToo, but none that I'm aware of from the "victims." And the general consensus, including that of the news media, seems to give #MeToo its imprimatur. Am I mistaken?

I would like to get to examining our difference of opinion on this matter, but I need us to start with a mutual understanding of where the matter stands, so that your "Aye" and my "Oy" are directed at the same thing.
 
Angel said:
All right then. I mistook your "meh" and pendulum. Sorry. To be clear: you say "Aye" and I say "Oy" to #MeToo. That's where we stand here.
One point of clarification, however. Your "meh." you say, is directed at "the reaction of outrage among male 'victims'" -- but the OP is about the reaction of repentance among the "victims." Has there been a reaction of outrage as well from the "victims"? I know of a few lone voices of criticism of #MeToo, but none that I'm aware of from the "victims." And the general consensus, including that of the news media, seems to give #MeToo its imprimatur. Am I mistaken?

I would like to get to examining our difference of opinion on this matter, but I need us to start with a mutual understanding of where the matter stands, so that your "Aye" and my "Oy" are directed at the same thing.
Click to expand...

hehe...how long have you been hanging out here? You haven't seen the backlash by some of our friends to the #MeToo movement? The derision? The attempts to invalidate? I think you should have a look, if not.

Let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that we are aligned enough to proceed...enough of the foreplay, let's get to the ****ing... ;) I'll let you know if clarifications are required, and you can do the same.
 
OlNate said:
hehe...how long have you been hanging out here? You haven't seen the backlash by some of our friends to the #MeToo movement? The derision? The attempts to invalidate? I think you should have a look, if not....
Click to expand...
Wasted most of my time here in the Beliefs and Skepticism forum, Nate, paying little or no attention to political nonsense here. I did not know we had #MeToo "victims" among our members, no. I should get out more, I guess.
 
OlNate said:
...Let's assume, for the sake of this discussion, that we are aligned enough to proceed...enough of the foreplay, let's get to the ****ing... ;) I'll let you know if clarifications are required, and you can do the same.
Click to expand...
Lynch mobs are dangerous.
Trials in the court of public opinion are dangerous
Ill-defined offenses are dangerous.
A cause without a realistic goal is dangerous.

These are some of the reasons why I say "Oy!" to the #MeToo movement.
What are some of the reasons you say "Aye"?
 
devildavid said:
Utter hyperbole.

The problem is and always has been the abuse of power used to coerce sexual gratification. Keep your sex life out of the workplace. Get it on your own merit, not by taking advantage of your position of power.
Click to expand...
And how do you think positions of power are acquired, and why do you think they are sought?
 
Angel said:
And how do you think positions of power are acquired, and why do you think they are sought?
Click to expand...

Some people like to be in charge. Part of it is ego, part of it is the perceived rewards that power will get them. People pursue what fits their personal desires and personality.
 
Angel said:
Lynch mobs are dangerous.
Trials in the court of public opinion are dangerous
Ill-defined offenses are dangerous.
A cause without a realistic goal is dangerous.

These are some of the reasons why I say "Oy!" to the #MeToo movement.
What are some of the reasons you say "Aye"?
Click to expand...

The #MeToo movement is the creation of men.
 
devildavid said:
Some people like to be in charge. Part of it is ego, part of it is the perceived rewards that power will get them. People pursue what fits their personal desires and personality.
Click to expand...
You'd better read your evolutionary biology manual again.
 
Angel said:
Lynch mobs are dangerous.
Trials in the court of public opinion are dangerous
Ill-defined offenses are dangerous.
A cause without a realistic goal is dangerous.

These are some of the reasons why I say "Oy!" to the #MeToo movement.
What are some of the reasons you say "Aye"?
Click to expand...

Because getting it wrong sometimes isn't a reason to give up entirely. :shrug: Nothing is perfect, everything is a work in progress. Right now the important thing is that more people are believing women, where they didn't before. This represents an improvement. But that's not the end of the road. We try, we fail, we learn, we do better next time. And "Oy!"s are important...but that's not the end of your job either. If you don't like how it's going, propose a system that's better...but doesn't step backwards. I don't see #MeToo as an initiative designed to castrate men...it's about fixing that's something wrong. Often when fixing something, something else gets broken. What do you do? Does ripping apart the newly fixed thing restore the newly broken one? Of course not....you just keep fixing what needs fixing. :)
 
Angel said:
I think "Rape Culture" covers all the items on your list -- a culture characterized by misogyny and sexism in all its forms. It may even include the remnants of the old law of coverture as well, "the whole women are property thing," as you put it.

If this condensation does not misrepresent your view, then can we agree that "the bigger problem" you referred to, which gives "traction" to the #MeToo Movement, is Rape Culture?

Is that a fair restatement of your view?
Click to expand...

Are you saying that James D'Amore was part of the "rape culture" even though he wasn't in a position of authority, came into no physical contact with women and all he did was communicate an opinion?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom