[W:517] Sexual Hypocrisy

upsideguy said:

...to a Christian, we all sin. By your logic, any Christian that sins is a hypocrite....

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OK, two points here. I dispute that there's such a thing as sin. However I understand that Christians (AFAIK) take the view that man is naturally sinful

Why would I take the view that any Christians who sin are hypocritical? I take the view that Christians are no more sinful than non-Christians and what would make them hypocrites is if they something when it's opposed to what they say (not necessarily think)

...the core of judeo-christain theology is to recognize our shortcomings, confess our sins, repent, accept forgiveness and transform. Even if you repeat the sin, God forgives 7x7 (forever, as long as your heart is right)...

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Several issues here:

1. I dispute the view that a person who rapes and kills but repents on their deathbed is in a better place morally than a righteous Atheist who never hurt anyone, but who the Christian faith deem worthy of eternal torment

2. Whist I accept that (most) Christians believe man is naturally sinful, I dispute that "sin" exists and certainly that it naturally equates to hypocrisy.

3. Man maybe naturally sinful to some but he is not naturally hypocritical - that requires him to say one thing and DO (not think) another

4. The words of one man does not make him responsible for the actions of another. So if a priest says "do not murder" he is not guilty of hypocrisy if a member of his congregation does exactly that

...I am sorry that you don't grasp that...

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I am sorry and alarmed that you cannot understand the points above

... you would have to better understand the theology to grasp it, but its really a very rich way of living. What the pastor did here is not hypocrisy, but a great illustration of Christian living....

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So it's not hypocrisy, in your world view, for a man to say one thing (in this case preach The 10 Commandments), then do another (in this case be adulterous), if he repents it ?

Would that also include theft and murder ?

So much for a "rich way of living"

...that all said, I see why you think its hypocrisy, but you have much to learn about the Christian faith to really understand it....

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That a Christian can say one thing and do another and not be hypocritical or a man can say one thing and be hypocritical if a brother does the opposite ?

If that's the case, you have a hard time to sell participation in your faith, much less an attempt to understand it.

...that all said, I do find the wholesale acceptance of Donald Trump by evangelical leaders to be a form of hypocrisy because they clearly are stepping out on God's teaching and are not repenting....

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To espouse Christianity whilst supporting someone like Trump is most definitely hypocrisy
Espousing Christianity and opposing Trump is not.

SDET said:

...expecting a man not to sample other "flavors" is like trying to force a left handed person to write with their right hand. It just doesn't work.

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Clearly you have no knowledge of the British Army and its experience withe the L85 (SA80) rifle.

SDET said:

Actually, it's like dry water. Expecting a man not to sample other "flavors" is like trying to force a left handed person to write with their right hand. It just doesn't work.

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Your posts give evidence of a gift for salient analogy. Props.

Angel said:

Your posts give evidence of a gift for salient analogy. Props.

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Except you can force a left handed man to work right handed.

Angel said:

These posts posed the central question of the thread: Glorification or Objectification?

Angel said:

Angel's Top 20
Hollywood Sex Symbols
on Parade

#20 Clara Bow
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-11.html#post1070126612
#19 Louise Brooks
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-12.html#post1070129726
#18 Jean Harlow
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-16.html#post1070134570
#17 Marlene Dietrich
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-19.html#post1070146716
#16 Dorothy Lamour
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-20.html#post1070150130
#15 Betty Grable
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-21.html#post1070157530
#14 Jane Russell
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-22.html#post1070164436
#13 Jayne Mansfield
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-23.html#post1070169165
#12 Marilyn Monroe
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-24.html#post1070176581
#11 Raquel Welch
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-25.html#post1070188023
#10 Natalie Wood
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-26.html#post1070200362
#9 Pam Grier
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-28.html#post1070205058
#8 Bo Derek
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-30.html#post1070223425
#7 Sharon Stone
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-31.html#post1070240028
#6 Jessica Alba
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-32.html#post1070273040
#5 Halle Berry
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-33.html#post1070315436
#4 Scarlett Johansson
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-34.html#post1070353290
#3 Angelina Jolie
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-35.html#post1070442433
#2 Jennifer Lawrence
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-36.html#post1070490680
#1 Jason Momoa
https://www.debatepolitics.com/sex-and-sexuality/357115-sexual-hypocrisy-40.html#post1070504108


Glorification or Objectification?
​

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Glorification or Objectification? That is the question.

Angel said:

Glorification or Objectification? That is the question.

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Hypocrisy in the Church

"Jim Bakker was perhaps the most popular televangelist in the 1980s, though his wife Tammy Faye gave him a run for his money. That all ended when Bakker was brought down by an enormous scandal that included sexual abuse and fraud.

In 1987, Bakker's secretary publicly accused the televangelist of raping and drugging her. After Bakker resigned from his ministry, he was charged with accounting fraud and sentenced to 45 years in prison.

Bakker was replaced by Jerry Falwell, who called his predecessor, "the greatest scab and cancer on the face of Christianity in 2,000 years of church history."

Age: 79

Birthplace: Muskegon, Michigan, United States of America"


15 Famous Pastors That Fell From Grace: Scandals, Crimes, & More


A man who famously preached a gospel of love and fidelity.

Sheer Hypocrisy

Rich2018 said:

OK, two points here. I dispute that there's such a thing as sin. However I understand that Christians (AFAIK) take the view that man is naturally sinful

Why would I take the view that any Christians who sin are hypocritical? I take the view that Christians are no more sinful than non-Christians and what would make them hypocrites is if they something when it's opposed to what they say (not necessarily think)


Several issues here:

1. I dispute the view that a person who rapes and kills but repents on their deathbed is in a better place morally than a righteous Atheist who never hurt anyone, but who the Christian faith deem worthy of eternal torment

2. Whist I accept that (most) Christians believe man is naturally sinful, I dispute that "sin" exists and certainly that it naturally equates to hypocrisy.

3. Man maybe naturally sinful to some but he is not naturally hypocritical - that requires him to say one thing and DO (not think) another

4. The words of one man does not make him responsible for the actions of another. So if a priest says "do not murder" he is not guilty of hypocrisy if a member of his congregation does exactly that




I am sorry and alarmed that you cannot understand the points above


So it's not hypocrisy, in your world view, for a man to say one thing (in this case preach The 10 Commandments), then do another (in this case be adulterous), if he repents it ?

Would that also include theft and murder ?

So much for a "rich way of living"


That a Christian can say one thing and do another and not be hypocritical or a man can say one thing and be hypocritical if a brother does the opposite ?

If that's the case, you have a hard time to sell participation in your faith, much less an attempt to understand it.



To espouse Christianity whilst supporting someone like Trump is most definitely hypocrisy

Espousing Christianity and opposing Trump is not.

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All good points, but based on a secular world view. From a Christian world view you are way off base. This is why is hard to have a good debate when people are dealing with a different set of facts. From a Christian perspective, there are certain "truths" (facts) that secular people do not have. That sounds a bit odd, as certainly there are not two sets of facts... there is truth and their is lack of understanding of truth. Christianity, however, is a faith. Its precepts are not all "provable" but man's standards, starting with the very existence of God and the holiness of Christ. If you can't accept those, its pretty difficult to have much of a discussion with someone that believes God and Christ are what they claim to be. OK, that distinction made....

Back to my original point, you don't comprehend what Christianity is, so you don't grasp why what this gentlemen did is not hypocritical. All Christians will say one thing and do another; its because of their sin nature. What makes it hypocritical, from a Christian perspective, is not the committing of the sin, but the lack of response to it (denying that you are in sin or rationalizing it). Accepting it, owning it, being will to endure the consequences of it is righteous. So, yes a Christins should not commit adultery, but doing so, even when speaking out against it (acknoweledging that it is a sin), does not make them a hypocrite. Living in the sin (denial, un-repetence) does. The person we are speaking about, while living in the sin was hypocritical; but once he acknowledged it, owned it (he resigned his post) and repented, he actually showed people a great example of walking the Christian walk.

If you think Christians should be pure people and never commit sins, you are asking the unreasonable. They will always fall short of your standards as well as those of God. You are being unreasonable. I will speculate that you are a dad. Do you expect perfection from you childern? If you do, you are a very bad dad. A good dad expects there children to aspire to high standards, corrects them when they show no effort, encourages their effort and loves them throughout. Because most of us relate to the role of being a parent in shaping our kids, most Christians well understand the concept of God as the father, shepherding his children. Its a great analogy.

So, while you may find this gentleman to be a hypocrite, a Christian would not. Its unfortunate that you do not better understand the faith so that you can see beauty here rather than the ugliness you describe.

...and, yes, the same would apply to any sin, including murder. I know that will really be hard for you to comprehend, but I have often said the Christianity is the simplest, yet most complex of all religions.

Rich2018 said:

Hypocrisy in the Church

"Jim Bakker was perhaps the most popular televangelist in the 1980s, though his wife Tammy Faye gave him a run for his money. That all ended when Bakker was brought down by an enormous scandal that included sexual abuse and fraud.

In 1987, Bakker's secretary publicly accused the televangelist of raping and drugging her. After Bakker resigned from his ministry, he was charged with accounting fraud and sentenced to 45 years in prison.

Bakker was replaced by Jerry Falwell, who called his predecessor, "the greatest scab and cancer on the face of Christianity in 2,000 years of church history."

Age: 79

Birthplace: Muskegon, Michigan, United States of America"


15 Famous Pastors That Fell From Grace: Scandals, Crimes, & More


A man who famously preached a gospel of love and fidelity.

Sheer Hypocrisy

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BTW. I do agree that Jim Bakker (and many others) were hypocrites. The difference between such and the primary person we are discussing is people like Bakker were clearly seduced by sex, money and power. They lived their lives one way while saying another. They never came to terms with their sin; never confessed, repented and transformed. While they are in the sin existence, they were indeed hypocrites.

upsideguy said:

...from a Christian world view you are way off base. This is why is hard to have a good debate when people are dealing with a different set of facts. From a Christian perspective, there are certain "truths" (facts) that secular people do not have....

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I imagine so as I most definitely have a secular world view.

I don't believe in the Christian god (or in fact I don't believe any god or gods exist)

I don't believe the stories in the Bible any more than I would believe the Arabian Knights and Ali Baba as factual.

I don't believe in Creation and Genesis or that the Garden of Eden or Adam and Eve existed...therefore why would I believe that sex then was "pure" and ever since has been conducted by "perverts" ?

Evolution and physics are as close as you can get to a science "fact" - calling our common ancestors like Lucy a pervert is not so much ridiculous, it's a departure from sane reality.

...there are not two sets of facts... there is truth and their is lack of understanding of truth....

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Only Theists believe an absolute or revealed truth

Evolution is not absolute truth but is evolving itself as our understanding improves...stating the story of Adam and Eve as "fact" is as far from truth as it gets as it contradicts all of our cumulative understanding of the natural world.

...Christianity, however, is a faith. Its precepts are not all "provable" but man's standards, starting with the very existence of God and the holiness of Christ....

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Why would you accept anything without proof?
Do you accept anything else on the word of someone else ?

In short why do you prefer to believe the Bible...do you believe other holy books, the claims of other faiths?
Has it not occurred to you that your faith is an accident of geography, that you'd believe in a different god or faith had you been born elsewhere ? Out of interest are you of the same faith as your parents ?

...if you can't accept those, its pretty difficult to have much of a discussion with someone that believes God and Christ are what they claim to be....

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If you believe in Evolution and common ancestors back to single cell organisms which science shows us was the first life form, it would be hard to accept claims that everyone today is a sexual "pervert" or sexual "hypocrite" based on a "story". A story I'm assuming you believe.

....you don't comprehend what Christianity is, so you don't grasp why what this gentlemen did is not hypocritical. All Christians will say one thing and do another; its because of their sin nature. What makes it hypocritical, from a Christian perspective, is not the committing of the sin, but the lack of response to it ...

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I would dispute that there is such a thing as sin. But see hypocrisy from people who preach.

Specifically they preach the Bible yet break their own code

I see this also from politicians - who you could liken to priests as the want people to follow them based on promises. The difference is with politicians we have real history to judge them by, we have no history with religion.


Doubtless you count the Bible as "history" - it is not, neither is it science.

...if you think Christians should be pure people and never commit sins, you are asking the unreasonable....

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No, since sin doesn't exist.

Preaching fidelity while being unfaithful is more than being "impure" though - it is downright hypocrisy

...they will always fall short of your standards as well as those of God.....

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That they are true to their word ?
Do you think their wives had the same standards ?

...you are being unreasonable....

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Unlike priests and politicians, I am not preaching how to behave...they are and it is them that have high standards

...I will speculate that you are a dad. Do you expect perfection from you childern?

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I am not but if I were I'd expect them not to preach X while doing Y

...while you may find this gentleman to be a hypocrite, a Christian would not....

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Yet they see so much that is "wrong" or "evil" that I do not

They preach the word of their god and knowingly break it and not in little ways. Why would anyone follow a corrupt leader ?

...and, yes, the same would apply to any sin, including murder.

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Is it a sin to covert my neighbor's new BMW - so much that I sacrifice other thing to buy one ?

Is it a sin NOT to honor your father - would Isaac's resistance to being sacrificed by Abraham count as a sin in your mind ?
If so, I'm sorry you're wedded to an evil and manipulative religion.

Homo Hypocritus

Angel said:

]Homo Hypocritus

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Hypocrisy in the Church:


"Bill Gothard is famous for his homeschooling ministry, known as the Gothard Institute of Basic Life Principles. He promoted extreme submission of women and ordered them to dress modestly. Gothard was also close with the Duggar family and a number of Republican politicians.

In 2014, more than 30 women accused Gothard of molestation and assault, including underage girls. The allegations included sexual harassment, inappropriate touching, molestation, and rape. Gothard was forced to resign from his ministry, though he resurfaced on the Internet with a blog in 2016.

Age: 84

Birthplace: Illinois"


15 Famous Pastors That Fell From Grace: Scandals, Crimes, & More


I guess he is a natural sinner according to Angel.. Not too many men are accused of rape though.


Sheer Hypocrisy

Angel said:

Sexual Hypocrisy

Look up the meaning of the word "hypocrisy"

Then look at some of our pop cultural depictions of women

in movies and magazines

in commercial advertisements

on billboards, bus stop shelters, and the sides of buildings

and then tell me we deplore the sexual objectification of women

and then tell me why we must say we deplore the sexual objectification of women

and then tell me what's wrong with the sexual objectification of women

Pop Culture is Pornography

Pop Culture is Pornography Promoted and Approved by Sexual Hypocrisy

What do you think about that as a thesis?

​

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"Bill Gothard is famous for his homeschooling ministry, known as the Gothard Institute of Basic Life Principles. He promoted extreme submission of women and ordered them to dress modestly. Gothard was also close with the Duggar family and a number of Republican politicians.

In 2014, more than 30 women accused Gothard of molestation and assault, including underage girls. The allegations included sexual harassment, inappropriate touching, molestation, and rape. Gothard was forced to resign from his ministry, though he resurfaced on the Internet with a blog in 2016."


15 Famous Pastors That Fell From Grace: Scandals, Crimes, & More


Pure Hypocrisy from a church leader who preached one thing and did something entirely different.

Angel said:

What is the message of this iconic pop-cultural image?​

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Angel said:

Iconic cognitive dissonance from the Sixties​

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Angel said:

Baby Boomer alter ego flanked by sexual objects​

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"Tony Alamo rocketed to fame in the 1970s for preaching a fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity. When his wife died in 1982, Alamo went a little crazy. He displayed her embalmed body for months and claimed she would rise from the dead. And it only got worse from there.

In 2009, Alamo was sentenced to 175 years in prison. The charges included sexual abuse, transporting underage girls across state lines for sexual purposes, pedophilia, marrying an eight-year-old girl, and child rape. Alamo's defense: he was framed by the Vatican."

15 Famous Pastors That Fell From Grace: Scandals, Crimes, & More


A church leader - do not commit adultery. Doing just that!

Pure hypocrisy.

Is can be moral to do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Come on chics, get moral.

Should we males be more grateful that it is not socially acceptable for women to simply harass men for sex until the guy clamors to get serious with at least One of you?

danielpalos said:

Should we males be more grateful that it is not socially acceptable for women to simply harass men for sex until the guy clamors to get serious with at least One of you?

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Good point. The double standard is one of the signs of American culture's inherent sexual hypocrisy.

Angel said:

Good point. The double standard is one of the signs of American culture's inherent sexual hypocrisy.

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Harassing anyone for a really really serious relationship instead of merely sex, may not always be conducive to any confidence in the sincerity of the person alleging it.

The thread thesis:

Contradictory signals about sexual objectification have contributed to a culture of cognitive dissonance here in America and in the course of the last fifty years produced the Sexual Hypocrite as a new millennial American type.

Angel said:

Glorification or Objectification?​

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Both.

FYI: Sean Connery isn't a Baby Boomer.

We all know, women know how to communicate and make appointments.

Why any sexual hypocrisy in modern times, at all, chics?

Dr Vivienne Lifar-Cisse, chief racial equality specialist at the national health Service in the UK, was sacked for discriminating against white men.
In General, expelled from the SS for anti-Semitism. That's postmodern for you...