How do you define a persons sex?

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Click to expand...

I think for that kind of understanding you would need to speak to someone who understands the issue - someone from the transgender community. All anyone else would be able to do is little more than you - provide an opinion, based on the accounts or opinions of others.

I think it's good that you want to understand, this is not a dig. But I think you need to do your research so that you get it straight from the source. I wouldn't assume to speak on their behalf, in the same way I wouldn't like anyone to speak on mine, when it comes to things about me that could only be truly understood by me.

Fact based... DNA. Don't even want to go down the rabbit hole of how people identify themselves as I don't have a horse in that race, genetically a male and identify as a female or vice versa, cool with me. Just be patient with me as I sort out the various pronouns in my head.

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Click to expand...

I have had that question also. For example, as a somewhat butch female, I had a lot of options. I can have a crew cut or I can grow my hair long. I can wear a flowerchild dress, or I can wear a sharp suit. I can wear make-up or not. I did catch some flack from people who told me to dress like a girl (and once a pair of young men aimed their truck at me in what I took as a sign of disapproval of my buzz cut) but mostly I felt free to dress however I wanted.

I admit my experience is limited, but two things seem to be in common with my experience. First, the transwomen I know were given a very hard time over their wish to wear stereotypically feminine clothes when they were being raised as boys. And as adult women their wardrobes and hairstyles stay in a narrow, very stereotypically female range.


So I have wondered if SOME would have felt a need to cross completely over if their parents hadn't hassled them when they found them trying on women's clothes. But I am sure that for MANY it's not about clothes. Even with the most supportive parents and community I am sure that some would look at their 'wrong" body ... and how it was becoming more and more wrong as puberty hit ... and would still feel a need to drastically change what they are seeing in the mirror, change to a body which matched the gender their brain said they needed to see.

Another thing that I have wondered was what if a person who was born with male parts felt a need to be called female, but didn't feel a need to have gender confirmation surgery and didn't feel a need to wear feminine clothes or play with stereotypically feminine toys. Is there anyone out there born with male parts who just felt a major need to legally recognized as a woman but still carried on in every other way as expected of a boy and man and was completely comfortable doing so? Is that something a transwoman would feel free to do and still be part of the trans community?

I have my initial reactions based on how they look, which are based on my upbringing and sociocultural conditioning. I still instinctively react to the world as binary (male or female) for the most part. If I talk to someone and they tell me they prefer a different pronoun, I'll adopt it into my speech... but I must admit, it's hard for me to go against my conditioning. If someone looks male but says they're a she (or vice versa), I'll show them respect by calling them what they want to be called by my brain still reads their gender as being their sex.

I understand the difference between gender and sex but it can be challenging. The people who I have the least difficulty with are the ones who look androgynous, but someone with very distinctive "male" features like a beard or female features like breasts and a full face, it's hard. Someone who looks female but says they're male or vice versa or neither, I often fumble. But I'm trying!

Amelia said:

Another thing that I have wondered was what if a person who was born with male parts felt a need to be called female, but didn't feel a need to have gender confirmation surgery and didn't feel a need to wear feminine clothes or play with stereotypically feminine toys. Is there anyone out there born with male parts who just felt a major need to legally recognized as a woman but still carried on in every other way as expected of a boy and man and was completely comfortable doing so? Is that something a transwoman would feel free to do and still be part of the trans community?

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I'm still trying to wrap my head around someone born male who identifies as female and is attracted to females. But as I indicated earlier, I don't really have to wrap my head around it, just accept it when someone says they are that way as it has zero impact on how I choose to live my life.

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Click to expand...

A persons sex/gender is whatever their genetics say it is. But if the person chooses to live as the opposite sex, I see no problem with it and will refer to them as the name of their choice or he/she as they request. I won't use new pronouns or other nonsense. The current selection does a fine job and I see no need for improvement. If this person personally doesn't feel that they belong to either he or she pronouns then I think the responsible thing to do would be to pick the least objectionable and get over it.

The reason I say that sex/gender is based on genetics is because it is simply factually true. The same way that if you are talking about facts, my wife hasn't met her mother since she was a week old. Her mother is some anonymous person wondering around somewhere. The very sweet lady that lives down the street from us isn't her "mother" in that sense. But no one of course would give my wife grief for introducing her adoptive mother as "my mother" even though they don't share blood. For this reason, when she's asked if she has a family history of something, she can't point to her mom and say "yea, it runs in her family". Because even though that's her mom, genetically it doesn't matter. Her family history has nothing to do with her daughters family history of illness. And we all understand why. No one would debate it. We all know exactly what I'm saying. We all know exactly what I mean. We all know exactly why my mother in law is my wifes mother but at the same time isn't her mother in certain ways. In the exact same way, if you are born a man and want to live as a woman, you can and I wish you happiness, but we all know that if we are speaking scientifically or genetically, the answer is the answer regardless of how you live.

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Click to expand...

Do they have a fully functional set of reproductive organs? (functional Penis with Epididymis/Vas deferens/seminal vesicles/prostate gland/bulbourethral glands for males; Uterus/Fallopian tubes/Ovaries for females)?

Absent those biological characteristics, you can dress anything up externally and call it "Mommy" or "Daddy" but you'd be like two girls (or boys) playing "House." :coffeepap:

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Click to expand...

actually its a very easy question...

sex is biological. sometimes there maybe some rare cases but "sex" is biological.

gender is not sex and gender maybe what you are asking about

also sexual orientation/attraction are separate from sex or gender

Here this should help:
https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

Sex is assigned at birth, refers to one’s biological status as either male or female, and is associated primarily with physical attributes such as chromosomes, hormone prevalence, and external and internal anatomy. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for boys and men or girls and women. These influence the ways that people act, interact, and feel about themselves. While aspects of biological sex are similar across different cultures, aspects of gender may differ.

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the APA, WHO, NCBI, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, psychology sites and research for oxford and standford will all help you if you want to look it up. they all have info on this topic and all agree.

AGENT J said:

actually its a very easy question...

sex is biological. sometimes there maybe some rare cases but "sex" is biological.

gender is not sex and gender maybe what you are asking about

also sexual orientation/attraction are separate from sex or gender

Here this should help:
https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx


the APA, WHO, NCBI, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, psychology sites and research for oxford and standford will all help you if you want to look it up. they all have info on this topic and all agree.

Click to expand...

Yep. J's got it right.

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Click to expand...

Sex is defined by their genes.

Gender may be determined by an individual.

I don't believe that transgenderism is a mental illness. All of the scientific data disproves that. It's also not mutable.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is a mental illness... it's one that a person has for their entire life and there is no "cure". Why would you not go out of your way to try and be nice to them?

I feel like the "mental illness" argument is no excuse for treating these people as second class citizens. It's just an excuse for bigotry.

Northern Light said:

I don't believe that transgenderism is a mental illness. All of the scientific data disproves that. It's also not mutable.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is a mental illness... it's one that a person has for their entire life and there is no "cure". Why would you not go out of your way to try and be nice to them?

I feel like the "mental illness" argument is no excuse for treating these people as second class citizens. It's just an excuse for bigotry.

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Because it makes some people really really uncomfortable. Esp. men who are terrified of 'accidentally' hitting on or feeling attracted to someone and then finding out it's a trans woman...because somehow that would diminish their manhood.

Rather than deal with social discomfort, easier to try and demand other people behave the way you are comfortable with.

Northern Light said:

I don't believe that transgenderism is a mental illness. All of the scientific data disproves that. It's also not mutable.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is a mental illness... it's one that a person has for their entire life and there is no "cure". Why would you not go out of your way to try and be nice to them?

I feel like the "mental illness" argument is no excuse for treating these people as second class citizens. It's just an excuse for bigotry.

Click to expand...

Your are factually correct
medical science has stated its NOT a mental illness and its not mutable (that we currently know of)

IMO you are also correct about the excuse for bigotry . . logically i can come to any other conclusion since medical science doesnt support that claim

I identify a person’s sex by genetics. Gender is much more nuanced.

Sex is in your dna. Gender and whatever pronoun du jour you live your life as is an entirely different matter. You can't change your dna and why would you want to?

AGENT J said:

Your are factually correct
medical science has stated its NOT a mental illness and its not mutable (that we currently know of)

IMO you are also correct about the excuse for bigotry . . logically i can come to any other conclusion since medical science doesnt support that claim

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When I hear people say, "It's a mental illness so why would I support it by catering them", I wonder how they treat certifiable mental illnesses, like schizophrenia, bipolar, ADD/ADHD, MPD, etc. Are those people who have mental illnesses subject of ridicule and bigotry as well?

Northern Light said:

When I hear people say, "It's a mental illness so why would I support it by catering them", I wonder how they treat certifiable mental illnesses, like schizophrenia, bipolar, ADD/ADHD, MPD, etc. Are those people who have mental illnesses subject of ridicule and bigotry as well?

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agreed thats why i say logical theres no other solid conclusion besides its to hide bigotry. It doesnt make sense.

Physiology.




Next question.

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.

Click to expand...

Kreton said:

Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Click to expand...

For sex, only genetics. Even genetalia might be misformed or unusual and give a false

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Click to expand...

That could be for a variety of reasons, many of which we have no clue about yet. For all some claim that we know, we are only just starting to understand the human body and what makes it work. I am of the belief that there is no one single cause of transgenderism. One possibility, IMHO, is chimeraism, specifically if the fraternal twins were a male/female pair. But there could be a lot of reasons and possibilities.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

Click to expand...

Actually it happens a lot, especially with females. Or maybe more accurately, more females feel comfortable being female but dressing/actin/behaving (stereotypically) male. I am seeing it in males more. In some cases, they are "playing it safe" with variations on kilts. Even so I am seeing some identifying as male wearing skirts and dresses. So for those claiming trans, it's not just an excuse for wanting to buck gender expectations.



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Amelia said:

Another thing that I have wondered was what if a person who was born with male parts felt a need to be called female, but didn't feel a need to have gender confirmation surgery and didn't feel a need to wear feminine clothes or play with stereotypically feminine toys. Is there anyone out there born with male parts who just felt a major need to legally recognized as a woman but still carried on in every other way as expected of a boy and man and was completely comfortable doing so? Is that something a transwoman would feel free to do and still be part of the trans community?

Click to expand...

Actually there are many who are like that. The thing to remember is that once trans, always trans. That condition is about your gender not matching your birth sex. The issue is the dysphoria it produces. Not all trans need the full surgery route to resolve the dysphoria. For some simply presenting as their gender will suffice. For others, nothing more than the top surgery/hormone treatment is necessary (adding or removing breasts). And of course some need the full kit and kaboodle.

I don't think you'd really find anyone out there who honestly just wanted to be called female while making no other changes. Even without surgery, there would be some kind of "Butch female" qualities. And from my experience (your mileage may vary) there is a difference between a Butch female (trans or cis) and a male (trans or cis)

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AGENT J said:

actually its a very easy question...

sex is biological. sometimes there maybe some rare cases but "sex" is biological.

gender is not sex and gender maybe what you are asking about

also sexual orientation/attraction are separate from sex or gender

Here this should help:
https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx


the APA, WHO, NCBI, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, psychology sites and research for oxford and standford will all help you if you want to look it up. they all have info on this topic and all agree.

Click to expand...

so would gender not exist if both sexes weer allowed to do the same things without any hassle?

these social constructs seem to be based on biological sex as well

blarg said:

1.)so would gender not exist if both sexes weer allowed to do the same things without any hassle?

2.) these social constructs seem to be based on biological sex as well

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1.) nobody could possible answer that but im "guessing" that there would always be some for of gender regardless... theres probably always going to be things that are stereo-typically male or female based on varying culture, location etc.

2.) absolutely depending again on culture/society etc

blarg said:

so would gender not exist if both sexes weer allowed to do the same things without any hassle?

these social constructs seem to be based on biological sex as well

Click to expand...

Gender would probably still exist, just not as we currently think of it. Look at it as another characteristic that follows a trend but is not absolute. While most people with naturally blonde hair would have blue eyes, not all do. Likewise, while most males would be men, not all would.

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