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How do you define a persons sex?

maquiscat said:
So by this when a person has surgery to change their genitals they actually change sex. Sex is mutable.

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Gender is mutable. Sex is not. Until they can change cellular DNA, that is what defines a person's sex.
 
XX vs XY, because SCIENCE!

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Physically , it's a matter of DNA, only two possibilities. Mentally, a person can call themselves whatever they choose, even King of England.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Just like they become a leopard if they have leopard spots tattooed on their body.

Lol be serious
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You're the one that said it was anatomical. So if the anatomy changes, logically the sex changes.

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joko104 said:
Gender is mutable. Sex is not. Until they can change cellular DNA, that is what defines a person's sex.
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See above. I was addressing the logic/argument given. I don't agree with it per sé.

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Kreton said:
Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.
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You are kidding, right? Ill borrow from an Arnold Swartzenegger movie where a kindergartner said: "Boys have a penis.....girls have a vagina." It is really that simple.
 
maquiscat said:
You're the one that said it was anatomical. So if the anatomy changes, logically the sex changes.

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sure Anatomy changes you could get do an accident didn't have your left arm amputated that means you're an amputee that doesn't mean you were born with no left arm.

you don't go from one sex to the other because you amputate parts of your body. You go from being intact to an amputee.

Just like you don't go from being a normal human with two arms to some other species with one arm because you are an amputee.

Quit being ridiculous it's no longer funny
 
distraff said:
You determine their gender by observing their behavior and asking them.

You determine their sex by looking at their body, sex organs, and genetics.
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How about those rare individuals that have an XX chromosome pair, but grow testicles, a penis, and actually can produce viable sperm. Or, the XY individuals that developed ovearies ris, a vagina, a womb, and actually are fertile and give birth?
 
jeffchap said:
XX vs XY, because SCIENCE!

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How about the intersex1 and intersex2 groups? How about those individuals, who, for whatever reasons, developed sexually as the opposite gender of their genetics (naturally). The XX individuals that appear to be male, and actually make viable sperm.. Or the XY individuals that grow ovaries, and can even bear children?
 
maquiscat said:
See above. I was addressing the logic/argument given. I don't agree with it per sé.

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You didn't really address the logic I don't think you understood it.

Augmenting Anatomy through amputation may change the anatomy but it didn't change what it was before it changed.

Again if you lose an arm in an accident you weren't born a one armed person.
 
RAMOSS said:
How about those rare individuals that have an XX chromosome pair, but grow testicles, a penis, and actually can produce viable sperm. Or, the XY individuals that developed ovearies ris, a vagina, a womb, and actually are fertile and give birth?
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I would agree with that statement mostly you judge it by looking at their body parts not really there genetics.

If you looked at their genetics there would be no such thing as a male with XX chromosomes that would be a female regardless of anatomy but we recognize that there are males that have XX chromosomes and females that have XY chromosomes we decide that they're female based on their Anatomy.
 
CLAX1911 said:
It isn't it's based on anatomy. The concept of male and female being different goes back way before DNA.
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Given that DNA takes us all the way back to primordial life on the planet, to what pre-primordial record do you speak of?
 
I determine a person's sex the same way doctors do when they are born.
it is not rocket science or complicated.

later if they prefer to be called something else, then fine. I will do so.
It is only polite.
 
Kreton said:
Fairly simple question with what I imagine is a very complex answer.

What determines if a person is a male or female?

Genetics/genetalia?
Behavior?
Clothing?

Specifically I am curious as to why a person who identifies as a gender other than what they were born as feels as if they aren't their birth gender? I am far less interested in hearing from trans bashing bigots but I am sure they will come in anyhow.

Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.

I am asking out of ignorance and curiosity. This is not an attempt to belittle or demean anyone. I am hoping to gain a better understanding.
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Assuming one is biologically/anatomically 'normal', gender is determined by genetics/genitalia. This is a complex and complicated subject; research is ongoing, and no one can predict what the future will bring. But at this point in time, medical science only recognizes two genders: male and female. If one identifies or 'feels' they are the opposite gender than what their physiology reveals, the problem is their brain, not their gender.

<<Why can't a person simply be a male and act/dress/behave how they want, and be attracted to who they'd like without needing to be called a woman. Or vice versa.>>

Interesting questions, but you're conflating gender identity with sexual orientation. They are completely separate, in spite of the practice in recent years of mixing them up, as evidenced by the acronym "LGBT".

It's been fascinating, and more than a bit dizzying, to observe the evolution of opinion on this subject over the last fifty years. I'm 65, and when I was a kid, a girl who liked to rough-house, dress in jeans, etc. was called a "tomboy", while a boy who was sensitive, liked to read, cook, etc. was often made fun of and called a 'sissy'. Then, largely as a result of the feminist movement in the Seventies, these stereotyped gender roles were reconsidered, and it was decided that those of both genders should be allowed to be who and what they were free of preconceived notions of what a proper boy or girl should look or act like.

But the thinking today seems to be that what Arnold Schwarzenegger once called a 'girly man' maybe isn't really a man at all, but a transgendered woman. It seems very confusing.

Whatever the ultimate outcome of the research I alluded to earlier, it's something that needs to be determined by medical science, NOT gay/transgender rights activists.
 
RAMOSS said:
How about the intersex1 and intersex2 groups? How about those individuals, who, for whatever reasons, developed sexually as the opposite gender of their genetics (naturally). The XX individuals that appear to be male, and actually make viable sperm.. Or the XY individuals that grow ovaries, and can even bear children?
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Yes, everyone knows those rare conditions exist, but that's obviously not what we're talking about here.

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jeffchap said:
Yes, everyone knows those rare conditions exist, but that's obviously not what we're talking about here.

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Yet, they do exist, and any definitino has to consider those implications.
 
Wayne Jr said:
Given that DNA takes us all the way back to primordial life on the planet, to what pre-primordial record do you speak of?
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I meant to say way before the discovery of DNA. Somehow we knew what sex you were before we knew there was a such thing as DNA.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I meant to say way before the discovery of DNA. Somehow we knew what sex you were before we knew there was a such thing as DNA.
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Sorry about that. Sometimes I just get a bug up my ass and get obtuse :p We agree that one's sex is obvious.
 
CLAX1911 said:
You didn't really address the logic I don't think you understood it.

Augmenting Anatomy through amputation may change the anatomy but it didn't change what it was before it changed.

Again if you lose an arm in an accident you weren't born a one armed person.
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You statement is that sex is anatomical. Not that it is an immutable quality determined only at birth. Your statement made no claims of birth vs throughout life.

Even the above holds true to that logic. If you lose an arm in an accident then you are now a one armed person. If you change the genitals then you are now that new sex. That is the logic.

Do you maybe want to change your claim to sex is determined anatomically at birth regardless of DNA and is forthwith immutable?

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maquiscat said:
You statement is that sex is anatomical.
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And that's a factual statement.

Not that it is an immutable quality determined only at birth.
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it is immutable.

Your statement made no claims of birth vs throughout life.
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yes it did. Anatomy it's something you were born with. You can become an amputee but that doesn't mean you were born in one armed man.

I actually made that statement several times so stop with the bull****.

Even the above holds true to that logic. If you lose an arm in an accident then you are now a one armed person. If you change the genitals then you are now that new sex. That is the logic.
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Chopping off your testicles and penis doesn't make you a woman it makes you a eunuch. Even frankensteining them into resemblance of female genitalia still does not make you a woman. you don't have a womb you don't have a uterus you don't have Fallopian tubes and you don't have ovaries once you grow all those organs and put them in there then maybe. Likewise removing the organs of Hyster doesn't make you a man.

Eunuch or amputee is not congruent with female.

Do you maybe want to change your claim to sex is determined anatomically at birth regardless of DNA and is forthwith immutable?
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no it's still factual a man becoming a eunuch it's not congruent to a man becoming a woman.
 
PleasantValley said:
I determine a person's sex the same way doctors do when they are born.
it is not rocket science or complicated.
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later if they prefer to be called something else, then fine. I will do so.
It is only polite.
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I will tolerate them, however I will not refer to a he as a she or a she as a he.
 
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