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When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or else"

Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Chaddelamancha said:
Gender is a social construct, not science. Biology; however, is science and biologically speaking, that officer is female.
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Sociology, anthropology and psychology are sciences. Biology and medical science explains how a person becomes transgender (in the womb); so, it's all underpinned by hard science.

No one gets to opt-out. Everyone must deal with reality. The officer is male.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Beaudreaux said:
When the word “inmate” came around in the description I stopped caring about his privacy right, since he doesn’t have that right while an inmate.
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Agreed. Somehow there are times when doing what needs to be done for safety should be priority.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

MrWonka said:
If he has had his sex legally changed to female then I don't really see the problem here.
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Looks like someone hasn't read the link...
Link said:
he knew that Officer Buhle was a female based on her female features (breasts, face, voice and demeanor)
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What exactly is it that people like you think?
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Who, specifically, are "people like [me]?"

Do you seriously think a man, who is attracted to women, is going to have his dick cut off and become a prison guard just in the hopes that he can look at a female inmate naked?
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That's not the issue in question. She "identified" as a man, and that was all that was required. A man only would need to "identify" as a woman.

If a guy really wants to see a woman naked there are a hell of a lot more reasonable ways to accomplish that without having to physically alter your own genitalia or walk around dressed like a woman. Contrary to popular belief changing one's gender isn't like getting a tattoo. The process is such that you'd have to be incredibly serious about it if you're honestly planning on going through with it.
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Again, not the issue because there was no alteration of physiology, and it's also irrelevant as to whether or not a guy wants to see a woman naked. It's about whether or not someone in any flavor of detention (incarcerated, detained during trial, held after arrest, whatever) should be compelled to disrobe in front of someone who is not the same sex in non-emergency situations. Federal regulations say no. Common sense says no.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Grizzly Adams said:
She "identified" as a man, and that was all that was required. A man only would need to "identify" as a woman.
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What did her driver's license say?

If this was a clear case of racist man only saying he's a woman just to **** with a Muslim then sure, you could make the argument that his rights were violated.

Grizzly Adams said:
Again, not the issue because there was no alteration of physiology, and it's also irrelevant as to whether or not a guy wants to see a woman naked.
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It is entirely relevant because it changes whether or not she is legally a woman or not. Obviously, the guard would have to do more than just say they're a woman, but if she's legally transitioned I see no issue.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Chaddelamancha said:
Gender is a social construct, not science. Biology; however, is science and biologically speaking, that officer is female.
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Biology is not, in this case, the real issue. Sexual preference is. Personally as a guy, if I had to be searched I'd rather have a lesbian woman do it than a gay man.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

MrWonka said:
Biology is not, in this case, the real issue. Sexual preference is. Personally as a guy, if I had to be searched I'd rather have a lesbian woman do it than a gay man.
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That's part of the issue here. Just because the woman is transgendered, doesn't automatically mean that she is sexually attracted to females. She could still be attracted to males which would make it totally inappropriate for her to strip search a male prisoner.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

I’m torn in this one. The fact he is a prisoner probably makes fewer people care. But what if it is at an airport and the transgendered person is a TSA officer doing a pat down on you?
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

If this goes to court, I think the plaintiff would win.

One of the standards is to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. My guess is that would apply here, using the 'cruel and unusual' clause.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Skeptic Bob said:
I’m torn in this one. The fact he is a prisoner probably makes fewer people care. But what if it is at an airport and the transgendered person is a TSA officer doing a pat down on you?
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When do the gay people get labels? Or we can presume people are professionals until otherwise.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Chaddelamancha said:
That's part of the issue here. Just because the woman is transgendered, doesn't automatically mean that she is sexually attracted to females.
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It may not, but you're not allowed to ask an actual female prison guard what her sexual preference is, and even if you did she could easily lie and there would be no way to know.

Chaddelamancha said:
She could still be attracted to males which would make it totally inappropriate for her to strip search a male prisoner.
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Either sex could be attracted to males. We can't know without asking the guard which we can't do, and would have no way of validating her answer if she did.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Skeptic Bob said:
I’m torn in this one. The fact he is a prisoner probably makes fewer people care. But what if it is at an airport and the transgendered person is a TSA officer doing a pat down on you?
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In that particular case, you have a right to refuse any pat down at all, you would also have significantly more leeway in terms of choosing who performs the pat down. In fact, you could argue that in that particular case policy would have as much to do with protecting the TSA agent as it would protect you. I could see a lot of ****ty men requesting that the most attractive female TSA agent do the pat down just to be dick heads.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

MrWonka said:
It may not, but you're not allowed to ask an actual female prison guard what her sexual preference is, and even if you did she could easily lie and there would be no way to know.


Either sex could be attracted to males. We can't know without asking the guard which we can't do, and would have no way of validating her answer if she did.
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This is true.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

MrWonka said:
No, it doesn't.

First, he is in prison. It is his own life choice that impacted him and his faith.
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By this reasoning, the prison can do literally anything to him for any (or no) reason. This justification is less than flimsy.

Second, and more importantly, you don't get to just make up arbitrary religious nonsense in order to have things however you want. A Muslim cannot justify murder under the guise of honor killing. A Christian cannot deny service to a gay person just because they don't like their legal weddings.
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As I said earlier, the RLUIPA basis of the lawsuit is more or less irrelevant, in my view, because...

Whether the woman is trans or not has zero impact on what is required of him. The need to search him easily overcomes his right to decide who sees him naked.
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...the Code of Federal Regulations I cited above already forecloses this type of conduct by prison staff:
28 CFR 115.15 - Limits to cross-gender viewing and searches said:
(a) The facility shall not conduct cross-gender strip searches or cross-gender visual body cavity searches (meaning a search of the anal or genital opening) except in exigent circumstances or when performed by medical practitioners.
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So long as there is a valid cause for a strip search there is nothing wrong with limiting his choices of who performs it, and a person being trans is certainly not a valid reason for him to object.
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The CFR disagrees with you.
 
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Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

ecofarm said:
No one gets to opt out of science. The officer is male.
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XX chromosomes? Female. There's your science.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Grizzly Adams said:
XX chromosomes? Female. There's your science.
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Biology and medical science have come a long way since the 50s, Grizzly.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

MrWonka said:
but if she's legally transitioned I see no issue.
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READ THE LINK! You don't even have to click! The important bits are quoted for you! SHE HAD BOOBS! READ IT!
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Grizzly Adams said:
Not far enough to change objective reality. Penis? XY? Male. Vagina? XX? Female. That is reality, even when it isn't what you want.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

One can't use science from our great grandparents and act like one's on the side of science.

Modern science. Not 200 years ago, not 100 years ago, not 50 years ago. Modern ****ing science. Do you speak it?
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

ecofarm said:
Biology and medical science have come a long way since the 50s, Grizzly.
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No, only medical science. Medical science has come up with more effective ways to change what biology dictates, but the biology remains the same. XY means male, regardless of what you chop off. XX means female, regardless of what you paste on. In any other context, the amputation of a healthy body part would be unimaginable to a responsible medical professional. But because it's a dick and it's transgender but not a hand and xenomelia, well let's call it normal and press onward!
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

ecofarm said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

One can't use science from our great grandparents and act like one's on the side of science.

Modern science. Not 200 years ago, not 100 years ago, not 50 years ago. Modern ****ing science. Do you speak it?
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Yes, I do. Well enough to note that this is a DISEASE. This is not HEALTHY or NORMAL. Is it your contention that transgender people have a genetic disorder that gives rise to their transgenderism?
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Grizzly Adams said:
Yes, I do. Well enough to note that this is a DISEASE. This is not HEALTHY or NORMAL. Is it your contention that transgender people have a genetic disorder that gives rise to their transgenderism?
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:lamo
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

ecofarm said:
:lamo
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Is that a yes? A no? Help a brother out.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Grizzly Adams said:
Is that a yes? A no? Help a brother out.
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You are terrified of transgender people. It's asinine. Stop it.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

ecofarm said:
You are terrified of transgender people. It's asinine. Stop it.
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So it's not a yes, and it's not a no, but instead it's a "make **** up and hope someone believes it."

Got it.
 
Re: When "gender fluidity" means "take off your clothes in front of this opposite-sex person, or els

Grizzly Adams said:
So it's not a yes, and it's not a no, but instead it's a "make **** up and hope someone believes it."

Got it.
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