How can love be wrong? [W:713]

Elvira said:

Again, you are setting limits on God...sorry your has limits...mine does not...

"Our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever he pleases." Psalm 115:3

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Of course, you put your own limits on God, you just can't see it.

TheParser said:

I find it so sad there are some people who would verbally or legally or even physically attack two women (or two men) who are fortunate enough to find their true love.

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That goes both ways, you know. There are plenty of gays that verbally, legally, or even physically attack others who do not think the way they do. When gays use government to force the acceptance of their views on others, that is an utterly immoral act.

Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:

Creating and raising new life is one of the most selfless acts you can engage in. Talk to some parents and find out.

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1. Talking with parents will only show you how they feel from their perspective, biased by their perception of themselves. Becoming a biological parent doesn't automatically make you an expert on parenting, or even a good parent. Furthermore, we, unfortunately often think of ourselves as better people than we really are. Few of us are capable of honest introspection when it points to our personal flaws.

2. The initial choice to have and raise a kid is often not as selfless as we'd like to believe. The extreme example would be those who have children as a way of trying to hold a relationship together. However, for most folks, people seem to be enamored with the idea of having a 'mini-me', or with the general concept of being a parent. Sometimes getting married and having children is entirely born of societal expectations, even if that compulsion is more subconscious that conscious.

I'm not saying that all, or even most of these people are inherently selfish, that they don't fall in love with the children they bear, aren't good people, or any of that. However, I seriously doubt that the act of baby-making is usually as selfless as what we would like to believe. Personally, I've always wanted to get married and become a father, but considering my financial reality, and many of my flaws as a human being, I feel that procreation would be a deeply selfish decision.

There are many animal behaviors that have no discernible advantage or function, some of which, such as moths flying into flames, are actively detrimental, but are a byproduct of an organism's adaptation, nonetheless. For a more benign example, we can look to dogs humping people's legs. I can't think of recreational sex as an insult to procreational sex anymore than I can consider eating a Big Mac to be an insult to nutritious sustenance.

Anarchon said:

That goes both ways, you know. There are plenty of gays that verbally, legally, or even physically attack others who do not think the way they do. When gays use government to force the acceptance of their views on others, that is an utterly immoral act.

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So then the use of the government to force the acceptance that marriage is only between one man and one woman is an utterly immoral act. Got it!

Re: How can love be wrong?

lefty louie said:

What is filia?

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The Ancient Greek philosophical tradition conceived of four forms of love, as explicated by C.S. Lewis:

Philia is the love that develops between friends.

Storge is the love the develops between family members, such as between parents and children, or between siblings.

Eros is, as the name would suggest, erotic love that develops typically between young lovers in the throes of passion.

And finally, there is Agape, which ultimate and selfless love. Unlike the first three forms of love, for Agape to be Agape, the love must be completely and totally unconditional and unchanging.

While Agape can develop between people, in Christian theology, it is typically used in reference to God's willingness to forgive humanity for its sins by sacrificing Jesus Christ his only begotten son on Earth.

TheParser said:

While surfing the TV channels yesterday, I came across Ellen, whose show I never watch.

She was showing a video of her and Portia vacationing on an island in the Pacific Ocean.

I forgot her political views (with which I disagree) when her gentle humor and apparent genuine love for Portia touched my heart.


*****

I find it so sad there are some people who would verbally or legally or even physically attack two women (or two men) who are fortunate enough to find their true love.

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While I agree with your last sentence, I never take any PR actors put forth about themselves as anything but acting. What Ellen showed in a video may have absolutely no accuracy to the actual relationship. The two may routinely scream hatefully often furiously for all we know. Then again I really don't care about actors lives anyway. I'm not the groupie type.

Elvira said:

That is called "putting limits on God"...He is capable of seeing into the future or not...He can also be selective on what He chooses to see or not see...God has no limits...

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yes it would god could not see the future and tune it out at the same time for example god cant exist an not exist at the same time

god cant be everywhere and leave a room at the same time

and free will is a limit on humans if someone can see what we will do but us to be the person that would do what we do at any given instant then we don't have free will we just rung on an elaborate program with delusions of choice in that case

Elvira said:

Again, you are setting limits on God...sorry your has limits...mine does not...

"Our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever he pleases." Psalm 115:3

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so he cant do what he dosent want to?

Anarchon said:

That goes both ways, you know. There are plenty of gays that verbally, legally, or even physically attack others who do not think the way they do. When gays use government to force the acceptance of their views on others, that is an utterly immoral act.

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hmm if a gay person attacks you for being hetero sexul ya id agree that's imoral if they physically attack you for saying there bad because they are gay or have gay sex that's immoral and in most cases id say it immoral if they physically attack you for discriminating against them unless you doing so is threatening their health and safety some how

if you attack them verbally or legally because they are gay then you seem to deserve a verbal and legal counter attack

blarg said:

hmm if a gay person attacks you for being hetero sexul ya id agree that's imoral if they physically attack you for saying there bad because they are gay or have gay sex that's immoral and in most cases id say it immoral if they physically attack you for discriminating against them unless you doing so is threatening their health and safety some how

if you attack them verbally or legally because they are gay then you seem to deserve a verbal and legal counter attack

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Unfortunately, gays as a group have decided to use government to force others to behave in a way they approve of.

Anarchon said:

Unfortunately, gays as a group have decided to use government to force others to behave in a way they approve of.

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seems fortunate to me denying service or marriage to them is no better then doing it based on race or religion if you don't want to serve them quit

blarg said:

seems fortunate to me denying service or marriage to them is no better then doing it based on race or religion if you don't want to serve them quit

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I don't deny anything to gays. Your government does that. Gays' answer to that predicament is that they want more government. It is not logical.

Re: How can love be wrong?

DH Kirkwood said:

1. Talking with parents will only show you how they feel from their perspective, biased by their perception of themselves. Becoming a biological parent doesn't automatically make you an expert on parenting, or even a good parent. Furthermore, we, unfortunately often think of ourselves as better people than we really are. Few of us are capable of honest introspection when it points to our personal flaws.

2. The initial choice to have and raise a kid is often not as selfless as we'd like to believe. The extreme example would be those who have children as a way of trying to hold a relationship together. However, for most folks, people seem to be enamored with the idea of having a 'mini-me', or with the general concept of being a parent. Sometimes getting married and having children is entirely born of societal expectations, even if that compulsion is more subconscious that conscious.

I'm not saying that all, or even most of these people are inherently selfish, that they don't fall in love with the children they bear, aren't good people, or any of that. However, I seriously doubt that the act of baby-making is usually as selfless as what we would like to believe. Personally, I've always wanted to get married and become a father, but considering my financial reality, and many of my flaws as a human being, I feel that procreation would be a deeply selfish decision.

There are many animal behaviors that have no discernible advantage or function, some of which, such as moths flying into flames, are actively detrimental, but are a byproduct of an organism's adaptation, nonetheless. For a more benign example, we can look to dogs humping people's legs. I can't think of recreational sex as an insult to procreational sex anymore than I can consider eating a Big Mac to be an insult to nutritious sustenance.

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Eating a Big Mac isn't a proper analogy. Even though overall it's probably bad for you, you still do get nutrition from a Big Mac. We need an example that thoroughly rejects all nutrition, hence my appeal to bulimia.

Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:

Eating a Big Mac isn't a proper analogy. Even though overall it's probably bad for you, you still do get nutrition from a Big Mac. We need an example that thoroughly rejects all nutrition, hence my appeal to bulimia.

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That analogy fails as well. I am unaware of anyone who gets pleasure from their bulimia. Probably a more apt comparison would be high sugar candy versus nutritious food. This brings it back to eating for enjoyment instead of for nutrition.

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Re: How can love be wrong?

maquiscat said:

That analogy fails as well. I am unaware of anyone who gets pleasure from their bulimia. Probably a more apt comparison would be high sugar candy versus nutritious food. This brings it back to eating for enjoyment instead of for nutrition.

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But even then sugar is a nutrient. You're going to get calories.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:

But even then sugar is a nutrient. You're going to get calories.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

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Still...to.make the equivalent argument you need to.compare doing something for pleasure with doing the same thing for necessity.

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Re: How can love be wrong?

maquiscat said:

Still...to.make the equivalent argument you need to.compare doing something for pleasure with doing the same thing for necessity.

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And why do bulimics eat?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Anarchon said:

I don't deny anything to gays. Your government does that. Gays' answer to that predicament is that they want more government. It is not logical.

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ok can you be more specific im lost

blarg said:

ok can you be more specific im lost

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Sure.

Group A thinks they know what's best, so they think it's ok to use government to force their views on everyone. Group B thinks they know what's best, so they think it's ok to use government to force their views on everyone. Groups A and B don't approve of what the other thinks is best. So, they become embattled, continually using government to force each other.

A makes headway, B gets pissed. Then B makes headway, and A gets pissed. The people in government love their power and prosperity at A and B's expense. Both A and B continue to believe that government is necessary and good, because they think it can get them what they want from others. A and B (and C, D, E, etc) are all fools. They are giving others the power that ends up oppressing themselves.

What issue is being forced isn't the problem. The force itself is the problem. The only rational solution is for no one to force anything on others. If no one gave that authority to the government in the first place, group G, the gays, could get married if they wished.

Anarchon said:

Sure.

Group A thinks they know what's best, so they think it's ok to use government to force their views on everyone. Group B thinks they know what's best, so they think it's ok to use government to force their views on everyone. Groups A and B don't approve of what the other thinks is best. So, they become embattled, continually using government to force each other.

A makes headway, B gets pissed. Then B makes headway, and A gets pissed. The people in government love their power and prosperity at A and B's expense. Both A and B continue to believe that government is necessary and good, because they think it can get them what they want from others. A and B (and C, D, E, etc) are all fools. They are giving others the power that ends up oppressing themselves.

What issue is being forced isn't the problem. The force itself is the problem. The only rational solution is for no one to force anything on others. If no one gave that authority to the government in the first place, group G, the gays, could get married if they wished.

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wha did gay people do what exactly are you talking about

blarg said:

wha did gay people do what exactly are you talking about

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When they forced someone to bake a cake for them, for example.

Anarchon said:

When they forced someone to bake a cake for them, for example.

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opposing that discrimination seems good

why should bakers be able to discriminate by sex?

blarg said:

opposing that discrimination seems good

why should bakers be able to discriminate by sex?

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Because that's freedom.

Just because "opposing that discrimination seems good" to you does not mean that it is. If you wish to make the claim, start by outlining your moral philosophy so we can see exactly if what you consider "good" is coherent.

Anarchon said:

Because that's freedom.

Just because "opposing that discrimination seems good" to you does not mean that it is. If you wish to make the claim, start by outlining your moral philosophy so we can see exactly if what you consider "good" is coherent.

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why is being free to discriminate against people in this way good?

Re: How can love be wrong?

Eating a Big Mac isn't a proper analogy. Even though overall it's probably bad for you, you still do get nutrition from a Big Mac. We need an example that thoroughly rejects all nutrition, hence my appeal to bulimia.

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1. No we don't, because the point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of things that we do for the simple pleasure of it, even if we're tricking our bodies' reward system into thinking that we're doing something necessary to our survival. Sure, a Big Mac has calories, and will sustain you, but we often eat regardless of whether or not we're hungry.

2. Bulimia doesn't work either, because it's objectively harmful. Barring reckless behavior with multiple partners, recreational sex is pretty neutral in that regard unless we're concerning ourselves with a magic space fairy that's oddly obsessed with what we do with our uglies.