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How can love be wrong? [W:713]

Re: How can love be wrong?

<alt>doxygen said:
Not necessarily. I have seen couples decide to have a baby for the purpose of trying to "save" their marriage, as well as one of those "full quiver" couples who basically have as many babies as possible in order to spread their religion.
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And people can also have children by accident. There's a reason that I included raising children also.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

Lursa said:
And then give them up, or get arrested and lose them, or do drugs and lose them. Etc etc

There are over 100,000 available for adoption in the US...we dont need more kids being born. We need people to adopt the ones waiting in limbo for homes. And finally, FINALLY, the family courts and family services are behind enabling gay couples to adopt and provide these much-needed homes.

Gays want kids, families, as much as straight couples...and they often have to fight even harder to have them. Some have bio kids from earlier relationships but others go thru great time and expense to do surrogacy, IVF, and adoption.

And there is no data that shows their kids grow up with any disadvantages compared with those raised by straight couples.
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I want children to have a stable home raised by both of their biological parents. Any deviation from that is a tragedy, and any intentional deviation from that is an outrage. We have no right to deny children what by nature is theirs.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

Kal'Stang said:
Bold: Who cares that its not "natural"? As long as a child results then it shouldn't matter as the perpetuation of the species is assured.
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What right do we have to deny what by nature is given to a child? Who are we to impose our artificial theories about who can raise children when nature has decided that only the mother and father can create a child?

Rest: Sorry but since this kind of thing does actually happen and there have been no negative effects of it then you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.
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And I'm sure parents have a great time explaining that, rather than being born of the loving union of their mother and father, that their child was created in a test tube and implanted into their mother. How romantic!

Except that no one claimed that life was all about feeling good. But it sure as hell is about more than just procreation.
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Then what is it? You've offered no higher good than pleasure.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
It isn't? We're talking about homosexual sex. Why would I not bring up genitals?



Why are you always bringing up sodomy?
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A blow job is sodomy?

Ruh ro!
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

<alt>doxygen said:
The OP was about love. You are trying to say that gays can only have a sexual relationship and cannot experience romantic love. That's a pile of arrogance and ignorance.:twocents:
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I'm saying that they are missing the procreative aspect of love which is the byproduct of the unselfish nature of love. A homosexual relationship is at best nothing more than friendship, but at worst just the mutual self pleasure of lust.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
Because there is no procreative aspect to it.



Sure there is. Do you think you can build a stable home for your children by chasing your own selfish desires? Do you not think it higher to seek after the good of your spouse and children? Do you think that you can successfully raise a child when you're interested in your own aspirations?
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WHo cares? So no one should ever have sex if they dont want kids? Individuals dont owe society kids and they certainly shouldnt give up enjoying sex.

I was raised by Sunday school teaching parents, in the United Methodist Church...never encountered such repressive thoughts on love OR sex.

And building a stable home has been the almost exclusive purview of straight couples for hundreds of years....and failed for about 50% of them...because the men (and women sometimes) kept chasing their 'selfish desires.'

Being selfish and being promiscuous is not remotely an exclusively gay characteristic.

You have a Dark Ages perspective and it's repressive and depressing. Ugh, sad.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
I'm saying that they are missing the procreative aspect of love which is the byproduct of the unselfish nature of love. A homosexual relationship is at best nothing more than friendship, but at worst just the mutual self pleasure of lust.
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Procreation, love and sexual attraction / lust are 3 different things. You are trying to elevate the act of procreation to the level of being a prerequisite for love or sex or lust. It is not. If your opinion is that the only truly fulfilling relationships involve marriage to someone of the opposite sex and procreation, that's fine, but that remains no more than your opinion.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

Lursa said:
WHo cares? So no one should ever have sex if they dont want kids? Individuals dont owe society kids and they certainly shouldnt give up enjoying sex.
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Do married couples have no responsibility to their larger society? Do you have no sense of duty?

I was raised by Sunday school teaching parents, in the United Methodist Church...never encountered such repressive thoughts on love OR sex.
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It's no surprise that this church is dying.

And building a stable home has been the almost exclusive purview of straight couples for hundreds of years....and failed for about 50% of them...because the men (and women sometimes) kept chasing their 'selfish desires.'
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That's an exclusively modern development which came along when married couples decided to ignore the procreative aspect of love by the embrace of contraception.

Being selfish and being promiscuous is not remotely an exclusively gay characteristic.

You have a Dark Ages perspective and it's repressive and depressing. Ugh, sad.
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When did I say it was? Many heterosexuals have decided to take up this same view toward life, and look at the results. Broken homes everywhere.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
What right do we have to deny what by nature is given to a child? Who are we to impose our artificial theories about who can raise children when nature has decided that only the mother and father can create a child?
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What right do we have to tear down trees and build buildings? What right do we have to drive cars? Have toilets? Fly on airplanes? Do you think any of that is part of nature? Unless you want to live like cavemen did then your argument is completely and utterly worthless.

phattonez said:
And I'm sure parents have a great time explaining that, rather than being born of the loving union of their mother and father, that their child was created in a test tube and implanted into their mother. How romantic!
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How one is born is irrelevant. How they are treated while growing up is what matters. That determines how a person is going to be in life. Not how they were born.

phattonez said:
Then what is it? You've offered no higher good than pleasure.
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Learning, living, expanding both mind and body is one example. But for each person it is different. You have no right to tell other people what their life means to them or what makes their life.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
I want children to have a stable home raised by both of their biological parents. Any deviation from that is a tragedy, and any intentional deviation from that is an outrage. We have no right to deny children what by nature is theirs.
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I want children to have loving homes where they are raised by loving parents or a loving parent.

That's all.

And your final comment makes no sense since obviously the 100,000 kids waiting to be adopted no longer have that option.

You statements also have no basis in reality, since kids raised by gay parents are also raised by loving parents and there are no (peer-reviewed) studies showing they have any social or emotional or other disadvantages.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

TheParser said:
While surfing the TV channels yesterday, I came across Ellen, whose show I never watch.

She was showing a video of her and Portia vacationing on an island in the Pacific Ocean.

I forgot her political views (with which I disagree) when her gentle humor and apparent genuine love for Portia touched my heart.


*****

I find it so sad there are some people who would verbally or legally or even physically attack two women (or two men) who are fortunate enough to find their true love.
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I agree. People love who they love. And when two people fall in love -- it's nobody else's business.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
Look up the definition of sodomy. It absolutely is.
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Never had a reason to look it up. Have to admit I thought it only referred to anal sex. :shrug:

Like I said, ruh ro!
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
Look up the definition of sodomy. It absolutely is.
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What is cunnilingus? Is that sodomy???

When my wife and I die, is God going to scold us because we enjoyed oral sex???:roll::doh
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
What right do we have to deny what by nature is given to a child?
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So they get straight parents or nothing? Just state care? That's better? :doh
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

<alt>doxygen said:
What is cunnilingus? Is that sodomy???

When my wife and I die, is God going to scold us because we enjoyed oral sex???:roll::doh
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Apparently. Better repent.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

<alt>doxygen said:
Procreation, love and sexual attraction / lust are 3 different things. You are trying to elevate the act of procreation to the level of being a prerequisite for love or sex or lust. It is not. If your opinion is that the only truly fulfilling relationships involve marriage to someone of the opposite sex and procreation, that's fine, but that remains no more than your opinion.
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Any other view toward sex necessarily lead to broken homes where children cannot properly be raised. Just look around at our society. It's obvious that this is true.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
Do married couples have no responsibility to their larger society? Do you have no sense of duty?

.
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Nope.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
That's an exclusively modern development which came along when married couples decided to ignore the procreative aspect of love by the embrace of contraception.

When did I say it was? Many heterosexuals have decided to take up this same view toward life, and look at the results. Broken homes everywhere.
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Wrong. Married couples have always split and even when they didnt, the adults often pursued their 'selfish desires' and destroyed the family.

And since gay couples as a family unit are a fairly recent development, there's no way you can blame 'broken homes' on them.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
Any other view toward sex necessarily lead to broken homes where children cannot properly be raised. Just look around at our society. It's obvious that this is true.
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Wrong again. There are many gay couples that have now raised children to adulthood...my cousin and his husband have done so as just one example...she's off to college now. They adopted her in 2001 and have been a loving family unit since.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
Any other view toward sex necessarily lead to broken homes where children cannot properly be raised. Just look around at our society. It's obvious that this is true.
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I grew up in the 60's and 70's. I saw so many "broken homes" that I'd say that was more common than non-"broken homes". The worst were parents who stayed together even though they no longer shared any bond beyond their offspring. IMO that's more damaging to kids than divorce.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

holbritter said:
Apparently. Better repent.
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No thanks.

I don't need to anyway. Christianity absolves Trump's sins daily, so why wouldn't God absolve everyone?
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
That pleasurable feeling you have in your genitals isn't love. That's eros. Lust.
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Lursa said:
What makes you think they dont feel both?

And there's nothing wrong with lust...it does promote the intimacy and bonding in a relationship.
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phattonez said:
Because there is no procreative aspect to it.
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That's also complete BS.

I've never had kids, we didnt want kids. But I've certainly been in love a few times. Enough for us to be together for 13 years in one case.

phattonez said:
What do you think homosexual couples do? Just gab all day?
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Are you implying that gays are only together to have sex and that's all they do? :doh

Are you implying that straight couples do nothing but have sex all the time and that straight relationships involve nothing else?

There is nothing in a straight relationship/marriage that those in a gay marriage/relationship cannot have.

If you dont know this stuff, then I feel sorry for you. How depressing.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
That pleasurable feeling you have in your genitals isn't love. That's eros. Lust. It is in no way comparable to the love between a man and woman who through self-sacrifice give rise to children and raise them for many years. Calling the selfish mutual pleasure of homosexual sex (or non-procreative heterosexual sex) love is about the greatest insult you can give to one of humanity's highest aims.
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If self sacrifice is the only measure of love, most people have probably never experienced it. However, sexual orientation is only one aspect of a relationship. And focusing on the sexual act itself is a shallow world view of an extremely complicated topic.
 
Re: How can love be wrong?

phattonez said:
What do you think homosexual couples do? Just gab all day?
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I think that they're just like hetero couples. They do all kinds of things all day, not all of which involve sex, if ever.
Oh please. Yeah, and cohabitating couples are just living together. They're not having sex.
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I find it sad that you've never had oral sex.

Speaks volumes.
 
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