Not all old people disapprove of gay relationships/gay love

Grandmother Miet (85) embroiders kissing boys for her grandsons

An embroidery of two kissing boys, it started as a Christmas present for her grandson Willem and his boyfriend but now the orders are streaming in at grandma Miet's embroidery business. "She is very enthusiastic because of all the attention for her embroidery", according to grandson Willem.

Because of enthusiasm, Willem decided to dedicate a facebook page to his grandmothers embroidery work. "She began to create different variations of her original embroidery, like 2 kissing girls, and of interracial couples.". On different pictures on the facebook page you can see how grandma Miet, takes her embroidery needle and shows off her embroidery.

Interest in her embroidery exploded. "It started this morning with dozens of orders, but it has grown into several hundred orders for her work so we had to halt the ordering", says her grandson. "The waiting list for embroideries is now filled into August".

Last Christmas Willem's grandma decided to make the embroidery of the 2 kissing boys for him. "He has a hip house and is gay, so I wanted to make a modern version of the old-Dutch style kissing couple. I thought it was high time to make one, because being in love should not be restricted to boy loves girl", or so it says on grandma Miet's facebook page.

an example of the old Dutch style kissing couple



" To my grandmother, the love I have for my boyfriend is someting self evident/natural. She sees the attention for her embroidery more as an appreciation for her skill at embroidery than anything else." said Willem. But according to him the huge interest it is more than that. "Of course the cuteness factor factors into it, but also the story of how she accepts us (me and my boyfriend) without judging us".

But because grandma Miet can produce three of her embroideries a week, it is going to be time to get her some help. "For years she was part of an embroidery club, so maybe her friends can help her make them. I am going to propose that to her tomorrow.".

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Translated from the AD news website

I think it is a perfect example how even elderly people can have the maturity and the freedom of thought to accept love in whatever form it comes, be it gay, lesbian or interracial. Every normal relationship (not man v. dog, man v. horse, woman v. horse, adult versus small child, etc. etc. etc.) is to be celebrated when it is true love. Even if your grandson is gay, it does not mean he is any less of a grandson nor should he be made to feel less than "normal" like happens in some families.

In some families as we have read here parents would rather kill their child than allow them to be gay. And many children and grandchildren are still being shunned by their parents or grandparents for the simple reason that they are gay/lesbian/love someone of a different color or religion. It is nice that this grandmother with her 85 years of age is not afflicted by gay hatred but by pure love for her grandson and accepting him for who he is, gay and all.

Peter King said:

Translated from the AD news website

I think it is a perfect example how even elderly people can have the maturity and the freedom of thought to accept love in whatever form it comes, be it gay, lesbian or interracial. Every normal relationship (not man v. dog, man v. horse, woman v. horse, adult versus small child, etc. etc. etc.) is to be celebrated when it is true love. Even if your grandson is gay, it does not mean he is any less of a grandson nor should he be made to feel less than "normal" like happens in some families.

In some families as we have read here parents would rather kill their child than allow them to be gay. And many children and grandchildren are still being shunned by their parents or grandparents for the simple reason that they are gay/lesbian/love someone of a different color or religion. It is nice that this grandmother with her 85 years of age is not afflicted by gay hatred but by pure love for her grandson and accepting him for who he is, gay and all.

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That's sweet of her. And yeah, plenty of elderly people are accepting of the LGBT community. It pains me when I hear about stories of parents disowning their children because of their sexuality. It just really sucks when a parent cannot accept their child for who they are. I went through that myself with mainly my mother, and though I was never disowned, I still had a difficult time. Thankfully she's more accepting of my sexuality now, and doesn't try to bar my girlfriend from the house anymore. I have family who still don't "agree" with my sexuality, though. But I don't care; I'm not gonna try to change myself to please them.

Perfect example of signs of dementia and possible Alzheimer when a elderly parent or persons approves this nonsense.

TheGoverness said:

That's sweet of her. And yeah, plenty of elderly people are accepting of the LGBT community. It pains me when I hear about stories of parents disowning their children because of their sexuality. It just really sucks when a parent cannot accept their child for who they are. I went through that myself with mainly my mother, and though I was never disowned, I still had a difficult time. Thankfully she's more accepting of my sexuality now, and doesn't try to bar my girlfriend from the house anymore. I have family who still don't "agree" with my sexuality, though. But I don't care; I'm not gonna try to change myself to please them.

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The parents rejecting happens all over, but is much more prevalent in the southern states. You are fortunate your mother was able to make an adjustment. .. sometimes it's not easy.

RAMOSS said:

The parents rejecting happens all over, but is much more prevalent in the southern states. You are fortunate your mother was able to make an adjustment. .. sometimes it's not easy.

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I am very lucky.

PTF said:

Perfect example of signs of dementia and possible Alzheimer when a elderly parent or persons approves this nonsense.

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What is it about homosexuality that causes you to react with such anger and hate?

Most grandparents love their grandchildren, no matter what.

PTF said:

Perfect example of signs of dementia and possible Alzheimer when a elderly parent or persons approves this nonsense.

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What a heartless BS comment to make. Parents are supposed to love their children no matter what their sexual preferences are.

Peter King said:

Translated from the AD news website

I think it is a perfect example how even elderly people can have the maturity and the freedom of thought to accept love in whatever form it comes, be it gay, lesbian or interracial.

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We both told our kids that we just want them to BE HAPPY in life, no matter what, and that the same goes for THEIR kids, if or when they have any.

So far, we have been reassured by both son and daughter that they are straight but we still had that talk with them a long time ago. We just want them to be treated well, and to be happy. We don't care if they are gay or straight.
We will love them just the same anyway. Same goes for race...if they love that person, I do not care WHAT color they are, or what religion, or anything.

I'm going on sixty-two years right now.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

We both told our kids that we just want them to BE HAPPY in life, no matter what, and that the same goes for THEIR kids, if or when they have any.

So far, we have been reassured by both son and daughter that they are straight but we still had that talk with them a long time ago. We just want them to be treated well, and to be happy. We don't care if they are gay or straight.
We will love them just the same anyway. Same goes for race...if they love that person, I do not care WHAT color they are, or what religion, or anything.

I'm going on sixty-two years right now.

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That is how people ought to react, sadly that still is not the case in a lot of cultures and for a lot of people. But we can only strive to make things better.

Peter King said:

What a heartless BS comment to make. Parents are supposed to love their children no matter what their sexual preferences are.

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And a partridge in a pear tree.
Parents would love them more if they're straight.
Parents someday hope to be grandparents and don't tell me they can adopt. No adopted child should be plummeted into a situation where two parents are named darcell and jamal.

Deuce said:

What is it about homosexuality that causes you to react with such anger and hate?

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It's not anger and hate. I'm saying some elderly people don't think straight(no pun intended).
I'm not saying about seniors being delusional but making impressions such as this isn't the way to go.

PTF said:

And a partridge in a pear tree.
Parents would love them more if they're straight.
Parents someday hope to be grandparents and don't tell me they can adopt. No adopted child should be plummeted into a situation where two parents are named darcell and jamal.

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And that is great, do not adopt as a gay couple, but I am very happy that there are gay couples who want to adopt because no child gets better by being stuck in the adoption rat run for their entire childhood.

Gay couples can be just as great a parent as a "straight" couple can be.

Peter King said:

Translated from the AD news website

I think it is a perfect example how even elderly people can have the maturity and the freedom of thought to accept love in whatever form it comes, be it gay, lesbian or interracial. Every normal relationship (not man v. dog, man v. horse, woman v. horse, adult versus small child, etc. etc. etc.) is to be celebrated when it is true love. Even if your grandson is gay, it does not mean he is any less of a grandson nor should he be made to feel less than "normal" like happens in some families.

In some families as we have read here parents would rather kill their child than allow them to be gay. And many children and grandchildren are still being shunned by their parents or grandparents for the simple reason that they are gay/lesbian/love someone of a different color or religion. It is nice that this grandmother with her 85 years of age is not afflicted by gay hatred but by pure love for her grandson and accepting him for who he is, gay and all.

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First, I take exception to your premise using the absolute "all". You could have a ratio of 7 billion individuals against to 3 grandparents for gay relationships and make that very same opening resolution. Its a worthless throwaway.

Its fine that you feel that way, its your right. Does not mean you are correct nor does it mean your opinion should or can decide for all others that we must condone and/or encourage that which is definitionally deviance from norm over that which is most naturally beneficial to a society. We can tolerate, and for the most part we do accept, what two consenting cognitively able adults do in private ( as long as it is legal ).

However, we are not required by any valid rule or law to go beyond voluntary tolerance.

We have not had this troubling situation occurring long enough to study the long term effects on a society and cultures. Its common sense to understand that the optimal parents would be loving and caring opposite sex couples. Males and females are not, contrary to what the progressive regressives out there may want us to all believe, interchangeable parts. A man, for instance, cannot be the mother role model that little boys and girls should have. Simple biology and observation informs us of this truth early on.

We need turn back the wave of cultural/societal suicide the left has so diligently sewn into the beautiful tapestry of our freedoms cherishing civilization. Its a very insidious fashion, this burrowing in like termites undermining our strength and confidence in what is productive, positive and right. We can disagree, but your side cannot force us to go off such radical cliffs with you.

Your side hasnt that right...nor the power.

I cast no aspersions on those who are desirious of such relationships, just please leave the rest of us, the majority following the norm, to view and negotiate the correct path as we see it and that is best for the greatest number.

Gaugingcatenate said:

First, I take exception to your premise using the absolute "all". You could have a ratio of 7 billion individuals against to 3 grandparents for gay relationships and make that very same opening resolution. Its a worthless throwaway.

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Less than 10 years ago the over 65 group was still only one third in favor of accepting homosexuality in general. Just one in three senior citizens accepted gays as part of our society.

In 2005, when asked, only 49% of US citizens agreed that being in a gay or lesbian relationship (between 2 adults) should be legal. In 2009, a mere 9 years ago, 40% of polled people said that it should be ILLEGAL for 2 consenting adults to be in a homosexual relationship. It is only until 2010 when there for the first time a majority of people polled that being homosexual was morally acceptable.

I hope that one day it will not be an issue but if you are already so enraged by my simple use of words, meant to start a discussion then good, discussion started.

Gaugingcatenate said:

Its fine that you feel that way, its your right. Does not mean you are correct nor does it mean your opinion should or can decide for all others that we must condone and/or encourage that which is definitionally deviance from norm over that which is most naturally beneficial to a society. We can tolerate, and for the most part we do accept, what two consenting cognitively able adults do in private ( as long as it is legal ).

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Yes, but tolerating is saying, well I put up with you but I dislike you for who you are. Tolerating is what you do to things you really do not feel are acceptable but just "tolerates it". And that is not accepting in any way shape or form IMHO. Now you do not have to act like it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. All gays mostly want is to feel that they too are "normally accepted" in society, not tolerated.

Gaugingcatenate said:

However, we are not required by any valid rule or law to go beyond voluntary tolerance.

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Tolerance IMHO is an ugly word, it speaks the opposite of acceptance or equality under the law.

Gaugingcatenate said:

We have not had this troubling situation occurring long enough to study the long term effects on a society and cultures. Its common sense to understand that the optimal parents would be loving and caring opposite sex couples. Males and females are not, contrary to what the progressive regressives out there may want us to all believe, interchangeable parts. A man, for instance, cannot be the mother role model that little boys and girls should have. Simple biology and observation informs us of this truth early on.

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Should have? You do know that most children (more than half) do not live in an "traditional family structure". All you do is parrot what conservatives would like the world to be rather than realizing that a family is what you make of it. Two gay men can raise just as happy and well adjusted child as a straight couple can. Just like 2 women can raise a perfectly well adjusted son.

Gaugingcatenate said:

We need turn back the wave of cultural/societal suicide the left has so diligently sewn into the beautiful tapestry of our freedoms cherishing civilization. Its a very insidious fashion, this burrowing in like termites undermining our strength and confidence in what is productive, positive and right. We can disagree, but your side cannot force us to go off such radical cliffs with you.

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And we do not need to turn back anything, we need to keep going forward as a society. It will make our society stronger instead of the fake good old world that some conservatives feel the world should be. The world may not be perfect, but it is a whole of a lot better than in the "good old days" for most people. Freedom is a right that must be fought for, especially in the face of forces that want to make the world back to how they feel people should behave.

Gaugingcatenate said:

Your side hasnt that right...nor the power.

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Well, that is your view, luckily that view is dying out both of old age and of people growing more accepting and not less accepting.

Gaugingcatenate said:

I cast no aspersions on those who are desirious of such relationships, just please leave the rest of us, the majority following the norm, to view and negotiate the correct path as we see it and that is best for the greatest number.

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Ooh, you live like you want, but others have that same right. And nobody has the right to force others to live their chosen legal lifestyles and guaranteed freedoms.

PTF said:

Parents would love them more if they're straight.

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Real love is unconditional.

PTF said:

Parents someday hope to be grandparents and don't tell me they can adopt.

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Not all parents someday hope to be grandparents, and this is a lousy reason to encourage or discourage somebody else's relationship anyway.

PTF said:

No adopted child should be plummeted into a situation where two parents are named darcell and jamal.

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I'm thinking of a gay couple I know through my sister who are in their late 50's and in the process of adopting two little girls, one of whom is a quadriplegic. There they were living happy lives, one as a city attorney and the other as an animal rescuer, when the grown daughter of one put herself in a situation that endangered her 3 and 5-year old and permanently disabled one. My sisters' friends stepped up to the plate despite their own health issues and their ages. There was no one else.

Aren't you glad that these two little girls have two loving, devoted, capable, determined, self-sacrificing parents who love them and are willing to take care of them?

Peter King said:

Less than 10 years ago the over 65 group was still only one third in favor of accepting homosexuality in general. Just one in three senior citizens accepted gays as part of our society.

In 2005, when asked, only 49% of US citizens agreed that being in a gay or lesbian relationship (between 2 adults) should be legal. In 2009, a mere 9 years ago, 40% of polled people said that it should be ILLEGAL for 2 consenting adults to be in a homosexual relationship. It is only until 2010 when there for the first time a majority of people polled that being homosexual was morally acceptable.

*snip*
You do know that most children (more than half) do not live in an "traditional family structure". All you do is parrot what conservatives would like the world to be rather than realizing that a family is what you make of it. Two gay men can raise just as happy and well adjusted child as a straight couple can. Just like 2 women can raise a perfectly well adjusted son.

And we do not need to turn back anything, we need to keep going forward as a society. It will make our society stronger instead of the fake good old world that some conservatives feel the world should be. The world may not be perfect, but it is a whole of a lot better than in the "good old days" for most people. Freedom is a right that must be fought for, especially in the face of forces that want to make the world back to how they feel people should behave.


* snip *.

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I was not enraged, just instructing proper useage when attempting to make a point. Use of absolutes, all, always, never, forever, etc...are rarely true. To use "all" as you did adds zero value.

But, as we say in the US, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

Societal decline CAN be measured by the metrics you present. Nobody but the people in your nation need worry that males there are being femininized, emasculated. If the USA should ever become similarly pathologically processed into such a weakened nation, who will protect the liberties and freedoms our forefathers built, sacrificed their very lives to establish so that you can sit peacefully in your Dutch home, study your navel so intently, aspire to make that deviating from the norm IS the new normal?

Cover it up fancy like as much as you want, but its only a shallow virtue signal to allow the short sighted to feel good for doing nothing. Nothing good, weakening the bulwarks in the defense of all our freedoms/liberties against a constantly predatory world where those actual virtues are anathema.

Perform this misbegotten benefice in your own nation and later we can do the proper longitudinal studies with sufficient time, with the advantage of no real worldwide consequences. We already see what liberal policies have done to Europe since WW2. WE, American and British men liberating the likes of your country, then it was our guys as the ones on the front lines, human trip wires preventing Communist aggressors into the vaccum, American taxpayers propping up the rebuilding to establish stability where by your own hands Europe had decimated it.

But over liberalized thinking became the norm, so leave it up to American men to be the strong ones in your stead. The result? Already?



Birth rates so low you must import folks that do not want to assimilate, dont want your "European" values. Europe cannot, no longer has the strength of will, the men nor wherewithal to protect itself, to maintain its once proud culture without American assistance. And we cannot keep you from your Merkels, your liberal "good intentioned" yet self infliction of such grievous wounds...so rapid decline. So many years to build, so few to destroy...potentially forever ( valid use of an absolute ).

The rest is merely word play and while I appreciate that English is probably your second tongue and you have a decent handle on it, you are not up to speed. Its not a complete knock, many Americans prove the same fault on site here every day.

While two gay men can ( can and words like may are weasel words ) theoretically be as good as the now diluted, currently con(de)structed family unit with so many divorces, welfare policies keeping men out of their rightful place in the home, so many now thinking they can go it alone raising children, yes ...under the current liberal scenario maybe it is semi equivalent...but its certainly far far far from the optimal. Instead of further reducing, atomizing, enervating the family we should be rebuilding that structure into the stable units that make nations stronger ...not wandering confused, as you would have us, into a downwardly spiraling debilitative state.

A state so weakened needs others to defend it. If you infect your strong defender with the same liberal afflictions, then the victory will be purely pyrrhic.

The world cannot allow the blind to lead us to Cassandra.

Deuce said:

What is it about homosexuality that causes you to react with such anger and hate?

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If homosexuality is a choice that feels natural, then why can't not accepting homosexuality also be natural; yin and yang? Both reactions appear very heart felt and both tend to be a source of blind compulsive behavior. These may be two sides of the same coin. However, like a coin, one can only see one side of a coin, at a time.

Homosexuality, by its very nature, cannot reproduce. Reproduction requires the blending of male and female genes. Therefore, even if a homosexual person had many selective advantages, according to Darwin, their genes are doomed to extinction by a choice that does not allow them to reproduce; deviates from the theory of evolution. Homosexuality is not consistent with Darwin's theory of evolution, since it does not allow genetic transmission of traits and behavior. It implies a path that can undermine natural selection. It cannot be natural if is undermines natural selection.

I know and have known many homosexual friends with many positive traits. However, these are not be carried forward biologically. They can be transferred, through the transmission of knowledge; learned behavior.

Homosexual behavior actually has more in common with Creationism; connected to choice and will power and man is higher than the animals; instincts. In the bible, there is no denying that homosexual behavior exists as part of creation. However, there is a taboo and one is expected to use willpower and choice to avoid this behavior. From the POV of nature, those who do not accept this behavior; so called homophobes, may be a natural mechanism to increase homosexual participation in the gene pool; instinctive survival of the species.

Gaugingcatenate said:

I was not enraged, just instructing proper useage when attempting to make a point. Use of absolutes, all, always, never, forever, etc...are rarely true. To use "all" as you did adds zero value.

But, as we say in the US, you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

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Sure, you are not enraged but this whole post clearly reads the opposite. You are clearly enraged by homosexuality and liberal views.

Gaugingcatenate said:

Societal decline CAN be measured by the metrics you present. Nobody but the people in your nation need worry that males there are being femininized, emasculated. If the USA should ever become similarly pathologically processed into such a weakened nation, who will protect the liberties and freedoms our forefathers built, sacrificed their very lives to establish so that you can sit peacefully in your Dutch home, study your navel so intently, aspire to make that deviating from the norm IS the new normal?

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More anti-gay nonsense. Accepting gays does not make men feminized or emasculated. That is just bogus nonsense. And what weakened nation would that be? And we are very able to protect or liberties and freedoms WE THE PEOPLE chose and built during OUR lifetime. We are a democracy that progresses. And we are very able to sit peaceful in our Dutch houses because we live in a peaceful country. And us studying our navel, hilarious and also BULL crap. And just because you are so entrenched into what the norm is, is your problem not ours.

Gaugingcatenate said:

Cover it up fancy like as much as you want, but its only a shallow virtue signal to allow the short sighted to feel good for doing nothing. Nothing good, weakening the bulwarks in the defense of all our freedoms/liberties against a constantly predatory world where those actual virtues are anathema.

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We do not do nothing, we protect our freedoms and liberties against the archaic and ancient views of a few people who cannot move forward and realize they live in the 21st century and not in the 18th century.

Gaugingcatenate said:

Perform this misbegotten benefice in your own nation and later we can do the proper longitudinal studies with sufficient time, with the advantage of no real worldwide consequences. We already see what liberal policies have done to Europe since WW2. WE, American and British men liberating the likes of your country, then it was our guys as the ones on the front lines, human trip wires preventing Communist aggressors into the vaccum, American taxpayers propping up the rebuilding to establish stability where by your own hands Europe had decimated it.

But over liberalized thinking became the norm, so leave it up to American men to be the strong ones in your stead. The result? Already?

View attachment 67231162

Birth rates so low you must import folks that do not want to assimilate, dont want your "European" values. Europe cannot, no longer has the strength of will, the men nor wherewithal to protect itself, to maintain its once proud culture without American assistance. And we cannot keep you from your Merkels, your liberal "good intentioned" yet self infliction of such grievous wounds...so rapid decline. So many years to build, so few to destroy...potentially forever ( valid use of an absolute ).

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:lamo:lamo

Goodness gracious me, I have never read so much nonsense in a post I am afraid. You, liberated our country? Nope, your forefathers did, in fact it was the Canadians who freed the Netherlands but I honor the achievements of that great generation but you have no right to stand on their sacrifice and honor because you did not liberate us.

And as this is not a war of historical discussions I am not going to respond to your Marshall plan nonsense but go over to the real issue and the real nonsense you posted. That our birth rates are so low due to our men not being "strong anymore" or whatever bull you claim.

The reason our reproduction rate is lower is not because of "weak men" but because of STRONG women, women who have thrown off the shackles of conservatism and religion telling them to have as many children as their uterus could produce. With no regard for her rights or wishes, our women have denounced that way of life because it was dictated to them by backward men and an even more backward religion.

Gaugingcatenate said:

The rest is merely word play and while I appreciate that English is probably your second tongue and you have a decent handle on it, you are not up to speed. Its not a complete knock, many Americans prove the same fault on site here every day.

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Well, it is debatable whether or not that is a fault of "many Americans on site here every day".

Gaugingcatenate said:

While two gay men can ( can and words like may are weasel words ) theoretically be as good as the now diluted, currently con(de)structed family unit with so many divorces, welfare policies keeping men out of their rightful place in the home, so many now thinking they can go it alone raising children, yes ...under the current liberal scenario maybe it is semi equivalent...but its certainly far far far from the optimal. Instead of further reducing, atomizing, enervating the family we should be rebuilding that structure into the stable units that make nations stronger ...not wandering confused, as you would have us, into a downwardly spiraling debilitative state.

A state so weakened needs others to defend it. If you infect your strong defender with the same liberal afflictions, then the victory will be purely pyrrhic.

The world cannot allow the blind to lead us to Cassandra.

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Thank goodness we in "the weak" EU/Netherlands have grown to know what you write is is nonsense. What you think is just ridiculous. "The man's rightful place in the home" :lamo

No, the women have finally taken their rightful place in the home. That men thought that they were the rightful rulers of their domestic kingdom is one of the male delusions that some people still suffer from. They did not deserve that place, it was not their rightful place, it was their taken place and some men have been whining since then about those damned women, liberals and gays for making them loose their "rightful place".

Sorry but women have grown and no longer need to adhere to your kind of views on what families and "the place of men" rightfully should be.

And as a man from the EU/Netherlands, I am proud that we do not have to listen to the "blind" (that would be backward individuals who live in the past) to lead us away from a good future. Because the "blind" want to make us believe that their kind of male dominance and women being back home, taking care of the "strong man" is a good thing, well it is not. It is the opposite of a good thing because strong men know that women are equal, women have the same rights, women are more than a mother who gives us loads of kids, women have the right to decide their path in life and that we have to work as a partnership, not a male dominated mini dictatorship in the home where the man is king and the woman needs to know her place.

Deuce said:

What is it about homosexuality that causes you to react with such anger and hate?

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it's the icky buttsex, no?

/sarcasm

Peter King said:

Sure, you are not enraged but this whole post clearly reads the opposite. You are clearly enraged by homosexuality and liberal views.



More anti-gay nonsense. Accepting gays does not make men feminized or emasculated. That is just bogus nonsense. And what weakened nation would that be? And we are very able to protect or liberties and freedoms WE THE PEOPLE chose and built during OUR lifetime. We are a democracy that progresses. And we are very able to sit peaceful in our Dutch houses because we live in a peaceful country. And us studying our navel, hilarious and also BULL crap. And just because you are so entrenched into what the norm is, is your problem not ours.

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You may falsly characterize my thoughts incorrectly as much as you want. No Soviet commisars or apparachiks there to have you hauled off to the gulag. Thank US very much.

I have no personal animus against any individual or gay folk in general. Gay activism? That is another story. Promoting as right that which is inherently wrong should piss every thinking person off. Yano?

You have demonstrated very plainly that you have little sense, no understanding of history or your puny place in that milieu. Ask your Dutch Parents, they know. I debated a good Dutch friend over this very point during a meal at a restaurant here in Panama last year. He is 35 years old and his visiting parents were there as well.

Guess who they both agreed with? Not him.

You take for granted what is before you, snarl and snap at the hands that fed and still protect you, all the while claiming universal rights that simply dont exist. Except in your leisured mind, a leisure bought and paid for by the lives, blood and treasure of WE THE PEOPLE, WE Americans. Others helped, no doubt, but whether you ever have the humility to admit it or not, the entire current free world owes us, the US, much.

We, in the US describe such attitudes as you express here as spoiled, rotten. So would the sane amongst your parents and yes, your non namby pamby Dutch elderly as well.

How peaceful were all the Dutch houses, oh lets say, right around the 10th of May, 1940?

Peter King said:

We do not do nothing, we protect our freedoms and liberties against the archaic and ancient views of a few people who cannot move forward and realize they live in the 21st century and not in the 18th century.



:lamo:lamo

Goodness gracious me, I have never read so much nonsense in a post I am afraid. You, liberated our country? Nope, your forefathers did, in fact it was the Canadians who freed the Netherlands but I honor the achievements of that great generation but you have no right to stand on their sacrifice and honor because you did not liberate us.

And as this is not a war of historical discussions I am not going to respond to your Marshall plan nonsense but go over to the real issue and the real nonsense you posted. That our birth rates are so low due to our men not being "strong anymore" or whatever bull you claim.

The reason our reproduction rate is lower is not because of "weak men" but because of STRONG women, women who have thrown off the shackles of conservatism and religion telling them to have as many children as their uterus could produce. With no regard for her rights or wishes, our women have denounced that way of life because it was dictated to them by backward men and an even more backward religion.

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Well...apparently all the proof necessary that the so called better education of Europeans is all for naught. We always knew it anyhow. Americans since our founding have shown that.

Sapience is far superior to mere high level sentience.

Good luck with your enlightened strong Europe. Say hello for me... if you happen to see Theo van Gogh around.

Peter King said:

Translated from the AD news website

I think it is a perfect example how even elderly people can have the maturity and the freedom of thought to accept love in whatever form it comes, be it gay, lesbian or interracial. Every normal relationship (not man v. dog, man v. horse, woman v. horse, adult versus small child, etc. etc. etc.) is to be celebrated when it is true love. Even if your grandson is gay, it does not mean he is any less of a grandson nor should he be made to feel less than "normal" like happens in some families.

In some families as we have read here parents would rather kill their child than allow them to be gay. And many children and grandchildren are still being shunned by their parents or grandparents for the simple reason that they are gay/lesbian/love someone of a different color or religion. It is nice that this grandmother with her 85 years of age is not afflicted by gay hatred but by pure love for her grandson and accepting him for who he is, gay and all.

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This isn't really any surprise to me at all. People right, left, center, young, old, christian, Jewish and Muslim etc support equal rights and since differences in sexual orientation is basically as old as time this is nothing new. Many old people are in fact gay too, not like they grow out of it lol.

Anyway this is nice and heart warming considering the sicko extremists and bigots we also see but its more the norm than not.