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Scientists uncover 20 genes linked to being transgender – supporting claims the condition has a phys

Hi, Tim.

Is it possible that someone could be a man, but identify as a woman lesbian? Sure...why not? Does the existence of such a person speak to mind and matter, vs. mind over matter? Well, let's cross back over the line and discuss mental illness for a sec.

It's known that mental illness can be attributed to genetic factors:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/mental-illness/symptoms-causes/syc-20374968

Mental illness can be attributed to genetic hereditary traits, I don't think anyone argues in opposition to that.


This would indicate that an identifiable trait of the mind, specifically how the mind thinks, can be identified in genetic code, demonstrating that thought pattern can be determined by physical factors.

Another example I would point to is this:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943-brain-tumour-causes-uncontrollable-paedophilia/


This is an example in opposition to your argument, such that it is. It suggests very strongly with statistically significant reliability that mind and matter plays the significant role. I'd take issue with your statement that "how the mind thinks" is attributable or identified in genetic code. No such study, at least as far as I know, exists that supports this conclusion. In fact, I think it's well-settled science that the prefrontal cortex seems deliberately (deliberately not to suggest intelligent design in any way just for lack of a better terms) ambiguous when wiring the human brain. In most cases the PFC doesn't seem to hard wire until late teens, early 20's.



Once again, we have a physical variable directly impacting mental patterns and sense of self, in a pretty awful and significant way. (Sorry, I know the article is from 2002, but figured since it was a specific case study, it's shelf life was still ok... :) )


Yes, I agree in the example you provided, but lets not confuse the two arguments. Developing tumors in the brain can lead to all sorts of documented behaviors, not limited to even genius, or savants type symptoms.


(At this point I'd like to apologize for falling back on such horrible examples, when discussing the entirely different proposition of transgenderism, which I wouldn't, based on the information provided, comfortably call a mental illness, and doesn't imply harm to anyone. Sadly we study most the things we are afraid of, these were the examples that I could bring to mind that had the best analysis done on them. There are also links to be found with exercise and yoga and adequate amounts of sleep having positive impacts on mental health, for example, one more link towards physical state impacting thought patterns, but these are often too taken for granted or considered wishy washy to drive the point.)

I don't necessarily think people are afraid of trans people; I think, personally that they are concerned with misidentifying something for the sake of political correctness, born out of an emotional (maybe even justified) sense to comfort. Participation trophies, and the like.



Therefore, this indicates to me, some dumb Canuck without any letters behind his name, that the mind and matter scenario you are suggesting is at least plausible.

I don't find anything wrong with transsexuals, or GID, they exist, that's the reality. Why, who knows, and ultimately, it might not matter over time. One thing I have come to learn over the years of following this science is that, homosexuality, transsexuality, and any other sexuality, seems more fluid in the macro of human existence. Does creating a welcoming habitat for fluid sexual behavior increase sexual behavior? I tend to think that ultimately it does, or will. This lends support for mind over matter. Does a straight male who has an urge one night to engage in same sex behavior make that person a homosexual? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think I've ever had such an urge, but I have looked at good looking men and said to myself I can see why the babes love that guy.. ;)



That's my best crack at answering your question. :)

I agree, they're not hurting anyone. I myself have evolved on this topic over the years, I used to be very against homosexuality, transsexuality at the like, but have since calmed myself into respecting other points of view, mainly because my political arguments for why I felt the way I did, simply did not stand up to logic. I tended to align my political views with the science that supported my views, and ignored science that did not. I have come to appreciate both sides of the discussion as having valid opinions, and interesting science to back it up.

Cheers!

Tim-
 
Mental illness can be attributed to genetic hereditary traits, I don't think anyone argues in opposition to that.





This is an example in opposition to your argument, such that it is. It suggests very strongly with statistically significant reliability that mind and matter plays the significant role. I'd take issue with your statement that "how the mind thinks" is attributable or identified in genetic code. No such study, at least as far as I know, exists that supports this conclusion. In fact, I think it's well-settled science that the prefrontal cortex seems deliberately (deliberately not to suggest intelligent design in any way just for lack of a better terms) ambiguous when wiring the human brain. In most cases the PFC doesn't seem to hard wire until late teens, early 20's.






Yes, I agree in the example you provided, but lets not confuse the two arguments. Developing tumors in the brain can lead to all sorts of documented behaviors, not limited to even genius, or savants type symptoms.




I don't necessarily think people are afraid of trans people; I think, personally that they are concerned with misidentifying something for the sake of political correctness, born out of an emotional (maybe even justified) sense to comfort. Participation trophies, and the like.





I don't find anything wrong with transsexuals, or GID, they exist, that's the reality. Why, who knows, and ultimately, it might not matter over time. One thing I have come to learn over the years of following this science is that, homosexuality, transsexuality, and any other sexuality, seems more fluid in the macro of human existence. Does creating a welcoming habitat for fluid sexual behavior increase sexual behavior? I tend to think that ultimately it does, or will. This lends support for mind over matter. Does a straight male who has an urge one night to engage in same sex behavior make that person a homosexual? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think I've ever had such an urge, but I have looked at good looking men and said to myself I can see why the babes love that guy.. ;)





I agree, they're not hurting anyone. I myself have evolved on this topic over the years, I used to be very against homosexuality, transsexuality at the like, but have since calmed myself into respecting other points of view, mainly because my political arguments for why I felt the way I did, simply did not stand up to logic. I tended to align my political views with the science that supported my views, and ignored science that did not. I have come to appreciate both sides of the discussion as having valid opinions, and interesting science to back it up.

Cheers!

Tim-

Hehe...cool, man. :) As I said, I'm no doctor, so I would never come at this from a place of absolute surety of my opinion. I can only fall back on various things I've seen, and try to make the best sense of them that I can. So, while I certainly make room for possibility that I'm most likely wrong, I do find the examples I've given you tough to explain without linking thought pattern to physical variables. Science is mostly mysteries, even given as much as we know.

And when I was talking about the things we fear, I was more talking about mental illness and pedophilia...the goal was to separate those things from transgenderism.

Good chat, man, feel free to hit me up any time, I enjoyed a non-political exploration of the subject for a change.
 
I'm a Transwoman, married to her wife.

We share a deep love, a happy love, and active love. How is love unnatural?

In a way, I almost agree with you. You can feel something. Deep, happy and active all seem to be working for you. But natural? I have gone through this a lot with others who feel the same. You can't make babies.

That's the thing that keeps it from being natural. I realize you don't like it, but that is my view and I would like it to be respected, just like I respect your view that it is natural. And one more thing, can you show me how it IS NATURAL?
 
In a way, I almost agree with you. You can feel something. Deep, happy and active all seem to be working for you. But natural? I have gone through this a lot with others who feel the same. You can't make babies.

That's the thing that keeps it from being natural. I realize you don't like it, but that is my view and I would like it to be respected, just like I respect your view that it is natural. And one more thing, can you show me how it IS NATURAL?

Well, science is showing that the brains of Trans folks are wired for the opposite gender, I'd say this is more akin to a birth defect that we can fix rather than unnatural. And if making babies is your criteria for "natural" do you object to fertility doctors helping women who are incapable of having babies because of issues with their bodies?
 
Well, science is showing that the brains of Trans folks are wired for the opposite gender, I'd say this is more akin to a birth defect that we can fix rather than unnatural. And if making babies is your criteria for "natural" do you object to fertility doctors helping women who are incapable of having babies because of issues with their bodies?

No, since I believe in family and motherhood. Now, if you ask me about two guys marrying each other, and surrogacy, my answer is no. Having sex, I don't like but what can I do? But surrogacy is out of the picture.
 
In a way, I almost agree with you. You can feel something. Deep, happy and active all seem to be working for you. But natural? I have gone through this a lot with others who feel the same. You can't make babies.

That's the thing that keeps it from being natural. I realize you don't like it, but that is my view and I would like it to be respected, just like I respect your view that it is natural. And one more thing, can you show me how it IS NATURAL?

No, expressing love is natural.

Making babies is also natural.

Expressing love for another human is a natural and good thing. Life is full of natural things, not just one.
 
In a way, I almost agree with you. You can feel something. Deep, happy and active all seem to be working for you. But natural? I have gone through this a lot with others who feel the same. You can't make babies.

That's the thing that keeps it from being natural. I realize you don't like it, but that is my view and I would like it to be respected, just like I respect your view that it is natural. And one more thing, can you show me how it IS NATURAL?

I think you're making a fallacy that anything that's natural is good. This is a clear fallacy when you look at medicine. Medicine is not natural it is man-made operating on somebody is not natural operating Motor Vehicles is not natural.

Slaying your enemy versus reasoning with them is natural. Dying of cancer is natural.

Just because something is natural does not make it good just because something is unnatural does not make it bad.
 
No, since I believe in family and motherhood. Now, if you ask me about two guys marrying each other, and surrogacy, my answer is no. Having sex, I don't like but what can I do? But surrogacy is out of the picture.

So if a couple can't have a baby on their **** them right?
 
I think you're making a fallacy that anything that's natural is good. This is a clear fallacy when you look at medicine. Medicine is not natural it is man-made operating on somebody is not natural operating Motor Vehicles is not natural.

Slaying your enemy versus reasoning with them is natural. Dying of cancer is natural.

Just because something is natural does not make it good just because something is unnatural does not make it bad.

Hmm, it would seem you almost have a point. I should probably take a closer look at what you are saying here.

When you say that medicine is not natural, I have heard different. If man is natural, then everything man does is natural. Unless he does something unnatural because man can do both natural and unnatural. Science, a man made activity (scientific research) is natural. Dying is natural, whether it be by Cancer, but what is not natural is dying by eating too much food, mainly burgers, fries and drinking it all down with a chocolate Sandae, eating cookies, ice cream since man was never meant to eat beef, pork and so on.

Dying in such a way is unnatural, living a clean life is natural.
 
Hmm, it would seem you almost have a point. I should probably take a closer look at what you are saying here.
appealing to Nature is absolutely a fallacy as I pointed out.

When you say that medicine is not natural, I have heard different. If man is natural, then everything man does is natural. Unless he does something unnatural because man can do both natural and unnatural.
if everything he does is natural nothing he does is unnatural.

Science, a man made activity (scientific research) is natural. Dying is natural, whether it be by Cancer, but what is not natural is dying by eating too much food, mainly burgers, fries and drinking it all down with a chocolate Sandae, eating cookies, ice cream since man was never meant to eat beef, pork and so on.
it seems like you're arguing with yourself.

Dying in such a way is unnatural, living a clean life is natural.
your opinion on what is clean is of no relevance.
 
It's not important your bigotry toward families that cannot reproduce their own children is Despicable.

For such a hateful person I find it odd you call yourself Christian.

Really??

Don't you find all religious idiots the same?
 
Think of them as individual people and it might be.

I find them individual people with the normal full range of intelligence, and intergrity, good and bad, untill they start talking about God or any subject where there is a God squad input or position. Then their brains seem to evaporate and they will switch into lie mode.
 
I find them individual people with the normal full range of intelligence, and intergrity, good and bad, untill they start talking about God or any subject where there is a God squad input or position. Then their brains seem to evaporate and they will switch into lie mode.
there's subjects I don't like talking about. I feel that way when people start talking about football or baseball.

Perhaps you could learn to be a little more tolerant of things you don't like or share with others. That might help.
 
True, but Transgender is not a mental illness.

This is all for political correctness. When it comes to mental disorders, what is and what is not considered illness is a social and moral question, and it's nearly entirely socially constructed. From a strictly medical standpoint, being transgendered would be a medical problem. It's inherently dysfunctional. It's contrary to nature. Sex re-assignment never quite looks right, and it makes it impossible to reproduce to preserve the species. All these biological deviations would suggest it is a disease, and of all the mental disorders, this is actually one that there IS clear cut justification for defining as a disease, yet it's one of the few that are not defined as such due to modern day notions of individual liberty, which sees the right to sexual identity as a liberty interest that cannot be branded as deviant or pathological by modern medicine.
 
This is all for political correctness. When it comes to mental disorders, what is and what is not considered illness is a social and moral question, and it's nearly entirely socially constructed. From a strictly medical standpoint, being transgendered would be a medical problem. It's inherently dysfunctional. It's contrary to nature. Sex re-assignment never quite looks right, and it makes it impossible to reproduce to preserve the species. All these biological deviations would suggest it is a disease, and of all the mental disorders, this is actually one that there IS clear cut justification for defining as a disease, yet it's one of the few that are not defined as such due to modern day notions of individual liberty, which sees the right to sexual identity as a liberty interest that cannot be branded as deviant or pathological by modern medicine.

It's about human dignity, I as a transwoman realize that the old ignorance of previous generations will take another 10 years to start really dying off. I'm happy. Very super happy. Happy with my body, be happier when I have the SRS procedure. My wife loves me, my friends respect me and my colleagues don't even blink. Some older family view the world as you do and it has caused pain and loss, it hurts, but they are more concerned with their own misconceptions than what is best for me, as a human.

Science has shown Trans people have a brain miswiring, which is a good place to start in discussing how people view themselves, there is great anguish in NOT being the person you are on the inside, and modern science and medicine has made transitioning a reality. I am super happy to live in a time where I can be "me".

You can call it whatever you want, I know you're wrong, I spent 35 years denying who I was because I bought into so much that wasn't so, so much fear, so much ignorance. I tried to make family happy, worried about the hate possible, now I wish I had been true to me a LONG time ago.
 
Oh very interesting, science proving there is a basis, not a "Mental Illness" for one being Transgender. Well good.
How scientifically illiterate. As an example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Genetic

My understanding is that most mental disorders are viewed as having a partly genetic basis, or a combination of nature and nurture - and that the claims of any disorder being caused entirely by one or the other was just a false dichotomy oft repeated by the less educated.

So no, your statement merely demonstrates a lack of understanding what mental illness is to begin with.
 
How scientifically illiterate. As an example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia#Genetic

My understanding is that most mental disorders are viewed as having a partly genetic basis, or a combination of nature and nurture - and that the claims of any disorder being caused entirely by one or the other was just a false dichotomy oft repeated by the less educated.

So no, your statement merely demonstrates a lack of understanding what mental illness is to begin with.

Nope, you're just reading what you want to hear.
 
Nope, you're just reading what you want to hear.
I merely pointed out that your assertion that having a genetic basis somehow mitigates the fact of it being a disorder is rather a non-sequitur.

In fact, I'm not aware of any disease, mental, sexual or otherwise, which doesn't have a "genetic" component.
 
I merely pointed out that your assertion that having a genetic basis somehow mitigates the fact of it being a disorder is rather a non-sequitur.

In fact, I'm not aware of any disease, mental, sexual or otherwise, which doesn't have a "genetic" component.

No, what this shows is that this is a real issue, that needs to be dealt with properly and isn't just a "choice whim". That we can show a genetic tie to the condition helps us understand it and hopefully spreads compassion for those who are Transgender.
 
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