Touch Isolation

Northern Light · Mar 18, 2018

https://medium.com/@remakingmanhood...obia-has-robbed-all-men-of-touch-239987952f16

In America in particular, if a young man attempts gentle platonic contact with another young man, he faces a very real risk of homophobic backlash either by that person or by those who witness the contact. This is, in part, because we frame all contact by men as being intentionally sexual until proven otherwise. Couple this with the homophobia that runs rampant in our culture, and you get a recipe for increased touch isolation that damages the lives of the vast majority of men.

This topic came up because recently at school my son was called a fag by some other students because he and his friend were sitting on the ground reading books with their legs interlaced. My son came home and said he was wondering if he might be gay because him and his friend have this kind of contact when they're hanging out. There are also rumors at school that they are a couple but my son says it's not like that at all. To me it's irrelevant if he's gay or not because all boys and men should be able to have platonic contact with each other as part of healthy human behavior, which is what I told him.

I've always thought that the way men relate in North America is pretty screwed up in this way. They can get into sports fights and beat each other up, or have any other kind of touch as long as it's deemed competitive. During my time in India I noticed a lot of young guys hanging off each other and it was no big deal. In cultures that are still really homosocial (men and women stay mostly separate until marriage), physical contact is common. It's like in the west men can only get their need for touch met by getting a girlfriend, which puts a lot of pressure on the woman to fulfill a need that should really just be an every day thing.

The article is really interesting along with some old photos of men touching that have nothing to do with it being gay.

Northern Light · Mar 18, 2018

In case you miss it or you're too lazy to read the whole article above, here is the link in the article that leads to an interesting album of historical photos of affectionate men, all of whom are just friends: https://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/07/29/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/

Btw I posted this under "sex and sexuality" only because it relates to American homophobia but I really don't think this topic has anything to do with sex, so I wasn't sure where to put it. Sorry mods.

PTF · Mar 18, 2018

Quote...

" he and his friend were sitting on the ground reading books with their legs interlaced. "
Your son was asking for it.
Okay,reading books on the ground is no problem.
Interlaced ? C'mon.

Quote...

" all boys and men should be able to have platonic contact with each other as part of healthy human behavior, which is what I told him. "

Handshake,learning how to make a Windsor knot,throwing a football yes. Doing the electric slide,no.

Nilly · Mar 18, 2018

As a European that's moved to America, absolutely. Look at the contact level in sports celebrations (soccer vs football, for example). In European football you'll see hugs and embraces between dudes and when I played sports in the US tried to pull that (thinking it was normal) people looked at me like I was crazy or got uncomfortable.

ecofarm · Mar 18, 2018

PTF said:
Your son was asking for it.

:lamo

Goshin · Mar 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
https://medium.com/@remakingmanhood...obia-has-robbed-all-men-of-touch-239987952f16

This topic came up because recently at school my son was called a fag by some other students because he and his friend were sitting on the ground reading books with their legs interlaced. My son came home and said he was wondering if he might be gay because him and his friend have this kind of contact when they're hanging out. There are also rumors at school that they are a couple but my son says it's not like that at all. To me it's irrelevant if he's gay or not because all boys and men should be able to have platonic contact with each other as part of healthy human behavior, which is what I told him.

I've always thought that the way men relate in North America is pretty screwed up in this way. They can get into sports fights and beat each other up, or have any other kind of touch as long as it's deemed competitive. During my time in India I noticed a lot of young guys hanging off each other and it was no big deal. In cultures that are still really homosocial (men and women stay mostly separate until marriage), physical contact is common. It's like in the west men can only get their need for touch met by getting a girlfriend, which puts a lot of pressure on the woman to fulfill a need that should really just be an every day thing.

The article is really interesting along with some old photos of men touching that have nothing to do with it being gay.

You have a point. Human contact is essential for most people to maintain good mental health and emotional stability. It's absence can be terrible.

I come from a family that never heard that PDA's were an issue. We hug at almost every meeting and every parting. If you're not careful and quick the Aunties will kiss you square on the lips.

My son and I hug every time we meet or part, no matter who is watching. If we're sitting side by side one of us may put an arm around the other's shoulders, maybe lean into each other head-to-head or something.

Anybody don't like it can stuff it. And yeah, we're very very straight. We just come from a family that understands that physical contact has nothing to do with sex.

tecoyah · Mar 18, 2018

In our society (America) there is a taboo created by our macho cowboy wild western testosterone fixation that places males into categories that eliminate normal or standard personal contact. This is furthered by many gay men assuming any contact is something other than friendly interaction. I have had a few homosexual friends and had to CLEARLY explain boundaries, but I have had to do the same with a few women as well.

jet57 · Mar 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
https://medium.com/@remakingmanhood...obia-has-robbed-all-men-of-touch-239987952f16

This topic came up because recently at school my son was called a fag by some other students because he and his friend were sitting on the ground reading books with their legs interlaced. My son came home and said he was wondering if he might be gay because him and his friend have this kind of contact when they're hanging out. There are also rumors at school that they are a couple but my son says it's not like that at all. To me it's irrelevant if he's gay or not because all boys and men should be able to have platonic contact with each other as part of healthy human behavior, which is what I told him.

I've always thought that the way men relate in North America is pretty screwed up in this way. They can get into sports fights and beat each other up, or have any other kind of touch as long as it's deemed competitive. During my time in India I noticed a lot of young guys hanging off each other and it was no big deal. In cultures that are still really homosocial (men and women stay mostly separate until marriage), physical contact is common. It's like in the west men can only get their need for touch met by getting a girlfriend, which puts a lot of pressure on the woman to fulfill a need that should really just be an every day thing.

The article is really interesting along with some old photos of men touching that have nothing to do with it being gay.

A key question here is; what is the age of your son? That is important to the discussion.

Goshin · Mar 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
In case you miss it or you're too lazy to read the whole article above, here is the link in the article that leads to an interesting album of historical photos of affectionate men, all of whom are just friends: https://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/07/29/bosom-buddies-a-photo-history-of-male-affection/

Btw I posted this under "sex and sexuality" only because it relates to American homophobia but I really don't think this topic has anything to do with sex, so I wasn't sure where to put it. Sorry mods.

Most of my experience with physical display of affection with other men has been in-family, for reasons noted above.

In my 20s, I had two very close friends. We referred to ourselves as "the inseperables" from the Dumas Musketeers novels. And yeah, we sometimes hugged or sat with our arms around each other, at least out of the public eye. We were a little self-conscious about it in public.

And we were all straight arrows; we liked girls and chased them constantly.

But we also loved each other like brothers.

Northern Light · Mar 18, 2018

jet57 said:
A key question here is; what is the age of your son? That is important to the discussion.

He's almost 17 but I'm not sure why that should matter.

Northern Light · Mar 18, 2018

PTF said:
Quote...

" he and his friend were sitting on the ground reading books with their legs interlaced. "
Your son was asking for it.
Okay,reading books on the ground is no problem.
Interlaced ? C'mon.

He was asking for it? Why?

I mean, I know how society is... I'm not shocked in that sense. He definitely did not deserve it though.

jet57 · Mar 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
He's almost 17 but I'm not sure why that should matter.

Well it does matter when it comes to sexuality. Whatever prejudices have may be experiencing are the result of etched in stone social constructs that are going to have to weather away at some time. For young kids to have such contacts when reading or what have you is very normal, but such contacts are not seen everyday by 17 year old boys and said construct can dictate reactions. However, 17 year old boys are often seen walking and talking with arms around each other's shoulders as long lost buddies...

Northern Light · Mar 18, 2018

jet57 said:
Well it does matter when it comes to sexuality. Whatever prejudices have may be experiencing are the result of etched in stone social constructs that are going to have to weather away at some time. For young kids to have such contacts when reading or what have you is very normal, but such contacts are not seen everyday by 17 year old boys and said construct can dictate reactions. However, 17 year old boys are often seen walking and talking with arms around each other's shoulders as long lost buddies...

Yet in some places it's not OK to even do that much. You're describing something that to you is a norm but to others would warrant bullying.

I think two teenagers sitting on the pavement with their backs to a wall, each with one of their legs wrapped around the other while reading books, is a stupid reason to call someone gay.

You're gay if you're gay, and not for any other reason.

Removable Mind · Mar 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
https://medium.com/@remakingmanhood...obia-has-robbed-all-men-of-touch-239987952f16

This topic came up because recently at school my son was called a fag by some other students because he and his friend were sitting on the ground reading books with their legs interlaced. My son came home and said he was wondering if he might be gay because him and his friend have this kind of contact when they're hanging out. There are also rumors at school that they are a couple but my son says it's not like that at all. To me it's irrelevant if he's gay or not because all boys and men should be able to have platonic contact with each other as part of healthy human behavior, which is what I told him.

I've always thought that the way men relate in North America is pretty screwed up in this way. They can get into sports fights and beat each other up, or have any other kind of touch as long as it's deemed competitive. During my time in India I noticed a lot of young guys hanging off each other and it was no big deal. In cultures that are still really homosocial (men and women stay mostly separate until marriage), physical contact is common. It's like in the west men can only get their need for touch met by getting a girlfriend, which puts a lot of pressure on the woman to fulfill a need that should really just be an every day thing.

The article is really interesting along with some old photos of men touching that have nothing to do with it being gay.

Nobody is born bigoted, racist, or hating others over immutable characteristics. It’s sad, and a hard less to have to learn that people are hell bent on judging and condemning other - because they were taught to.

lurchadams · Mar 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
https://medium.com/@remakingmanhood...obia-has-robbed-all-men-of-touch-239987952f16

This topic came up because recently at school my son was called a fag by some other students because he and his friend were sitting on the ground reading books with their legs interlaced. My son came home and said he was wondering if he might be gay because him and his friend have this kind of contact when they're hanging out. There are also rumors at school that they are a couple but my son says it's not like that at all. To me it's irrelevant if he's gay or not because all boys and men should be able to have platonic contact with each other as part of healthy human behavior, which is what I told him.

I've always thought that the way men relate in North America is pretty screwed up in this way. They can get into sports fights and beat each other up, or have any other kind of touch as long as it's deemed competitive. During my time in India I noticed a lot of young guys hanging off each other and it was no big deal. In cultures that are still really homosocial (men and women stay mostly separate until marriage), physical contact is common. It's like in the west men can only get their need for touch met by getting a girlfriend, which puts a lot of pressure on the woman to fulfill a need that should really just be an every day thing.

The article is really interesting along with some old photos of men touching that have nothing to do with it being gay.

I guess it depends on where you live. A my kids' middle-school, same-sex kids exhibit public affection frequently. It's the kids that exhibit bigotry that experience the backlash.

Outside places such as Alabama or Mississippi, I don't think people under the age of 40 feel threatened by homosexuality.

jet57 · Mar 18, 2018

Northern Light said:
Yet in some places it's not OK to even do that much. You're describing something that to you is a norm but to others would warrant bullying.

I think two teenagers sitting on the pavement with their backs to a wall, each with one of their legs wrapped around the other while reading books, is a stupid reason to call someone gay.

You're gay if you're gay, and not for any other reason.

More later, but you have completely misunderstood my meaning.

Northern Light · Mar 19, 2018

lurchadams said:
I guess it depends on where you live. A my kids' middle-school, same-sex kids exhibit public affection frequently. It's the kids that exhibit bigotry that experience the backlash.

Outside places such as Alabama or Mississippi, I don't think people under the age of 40 feel threatened by homosexuality.

You're in Seattle which is a pretty egalitarian place to be if you're a human being, so I can see why homosocial behavior would be supported. It's not so elsewhere. I would say most places aren't OK with it.

jet57 · Mar 19, 2018

Northern Light said:
Yet in some places it's not OK to even do that much. You're describing something that to you is a norm but to others would warrant bullying.

I think two teenagers sitting on the pavement with their backs to a wall, each with one of their legs wrapped around the other while reading books, is a stupid reason to call someone gay.

You're gay if you're gay, and not for any other reason.

I'm describing something that is a social construct, not a norm by humanity standards, but a social prejudice that has to to do with religious status, power status and fear, and it is bullying and always has been. And two kids sitting IS a stupid reason to call someone gay, however you will admit that people will do that; that's why I asked about age. I say good for them close relationships are hard to find and they should continue to do as they please.

PTF · Mar 19, 2018

Northern Light said:
He was asking for it? Why?

I mean, I know how society is... I'm not shocked in that sense. He definitely did not deserve it though.

If I catch my son doing this with another dude he'll have to change his zip code.
You run the risked of being teased which leads to bullying and I know you don't want this. On the lesser side he will get the stares.

roguenuke · Mar 21, 2018

PTF said:
If I catch my son doing this with another dude he'll have to change his zip code.
You run the risked of being teased which leads to bullying and I know you don't want this. On the lesser side he will get the stares.

That is horrible reasoning. How about teaching your child, son to stick up for himself and against stupidity.

PTF · Mar 22, 2018

roguenuke said:
That is horrible reasoning. How about teaching your child, son to stick up for himself and against stupidity.

My son would stick up for himself against anyone who takes a shot at him. Not for doing the electric slide with Clyde.
If he wants to read a book or study with a male friend let them head for the library but don't lock legs under the table.

JANFU · Mar 22, 2018

PTF said:
If I catch my son doing this with another dude he'll have to change his zip code.
You run the risked of being teased which leads to bullying and I know you don't want this. On the lesser side he will get the stares.

sarcasm on
You are a wonderful parent.
sarcasm off.

PTF · Mar 22, 2018

JANFU said:
sarcasm on
You are a wonderful parent.
sarcasm off.

Learn about how things are done in America Canadian eh eh eh.
Give my regards to mrmcq

Northern Light · Mar 22, 2018

PTF said:
If I catch my son doing this with another dude he'll have to change his zip code.

This kind of toxic masculinity is part of the problem that keeps men separate.

If you would really go after someone who is just platonically touching your son then you're a failure as a parent.

JANFU · Mar 22, 2018

PTF said:
Learn about how things are done in America Canadian eh eh eh.
Give my regards to mrmcq

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