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A male backlash against #MeToo is brewing

Nilly said:
It's baffling and infuriating that the response to the 'revelation' that millions of men are committing sexual assault and millions of women are victims to it is "but what about the men!!!!!"
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I find , for the most part, the ones that are complaining have issues about women being equal to begin with... and have been obsessed with men's rights or macho ego even before the Metoo movement started.
 
RAMOSS said:
I find , for the most part, the ones that are complaining have issues about women being equal to begin with... and have been obsessed with men's rights or macho ego even before the Metoo movement started.
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I'd agree with that. It's so ****ing harmful because

a) it protects men that do commit sexual assault and
b) it actually encourages the rare cases where women do falsely accuse men because it brings so much attention to it as a legitimate tactic (even though it basically never happens).

Honestly, a lot of these guys like to bring attention to the issue simply because they can identify with the idea that it could happen to them. Screw what other people might suffer. It's "I'm alright Jack" attitude, the complete lack of empathy that plagues much of politics today.
 
LowDown said:
Dress 'em up in a burka and have them escorted at all times by a chaperone. And have them walk several feet behind the men, so that there will be no question that there was no illicit physical contact. That's the ticket. What a wonderful career boost that will be.
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Ah, yes. The standard ignorant misogynistic religious go to. Men can't keep their dicks in their pants so let's blame women for it and punish them. Don't like being punished for it? Fine stop tattling on us when we rape you.

How about you stop raping women?
 
Dragonfly said:
Of course it happens.
Rather rare.
People are often times falsely reported for committing all kinds of crimes.
I don't expect rape to be any different.
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1. It's nearly impossible to prove a false report, unless the person literally admits to it. Most reports would just end up being unfounded.

2. It's so bad that you can get hammered even if the person that was supposedly raped actually says she wasn't raped.

Interview: This Male Student Was Expelled for Raping His Girlfriend Even Though She Said He Did Nothing Wrong - Hit & Run : Reason.com

Neal's girlfriend, Jane Doe, never accused him of wrongdoing, and famously stated, "I'm fine and I wasn't raped." But CSU-Pueblo initiated an inquiry into their forbidden relationship, which violated an informal rule about physical trainers dating athletes. The university prohibited them from contacting one another during the course of the investigation, but Doe paid little heed to the no-contact order and sent Neal several supportive messages.

Neal, though, was worried her messages could get him in even more trouble, so he promptly informed Roosevelt Wilson, the university official charged with investigating the matter under Title IX—the federal state prohibiting sex-based inequality at institutions of higher education.

"it really hit me after the second meeting I had with the Title IX officer, Roosevelt Wilson," Neal recalled during an interview with Reason.

Neal asked Wilson what he should do about the fact that Doe was still texting him.

"I said, well, she's snapchatted me, what do you want me to do? He told me to open [the snapchat messages] and take a screenshot and send them to him, so I did that," he said.

This turned out to be bad advice.

"[Roosevelt's] email response back to me was, you could be potentially be in complication with your no contact order for opening the snapchats that she sent you," said Neal.

In other words, the man in charge of investigating whether Neal had raped a woman—a woman who emphatically stated that Neal had not done so—first told Neal to open emails from his girlfriend, and later told him he could be disciplined for opening them.
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Jesse Booth said:
Citation needed.
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https://www.rainn.org/statistics

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

Primary source citations for the statistics I listed are at the bottom of the second link:

Stat 1: Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Crime Victimization Survey, 2010-2014 (2015).

Stat 2: National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control & Prevention, Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey (1998). (Statistic presents information on the total number of male and female victims in the United States, using a study from 1998. Because the U.S. population has increased substantially since then, it is probable that the number of victims has, as well. RAINN presents this data for educational purposes only, and strongly recommends using the citations to review any and all sources for more information and detail.)
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Fishking said:
1. It's nearly impossible to prove a false report, unless the person literally admits to it. Most reports would just end up being unfounded.

2. It's so bad that you can get hammered even if the person that was supposedly raped actually says she wasn't raped.

Interview: This Male Student Was Expelled for Raping His Girlfriend Even Though She Said He Did Nothing Wrong - Hit & Run : Reason.com
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You are misstating the situation, in an absurd way. The issue wasn't 'rape' it was But CSU-Pueblo initiated an inquiry into their forbidden relationship, which violated an informal rule about physical trainers dating athletes.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Just an addendum to this....

Bold: I actually wouldn't mind seeing this type of thing applied all across the board regarding crimes. Would make it awfully hard for the media to spin things if they couldn't even release the names until a conviction and court case were completed, or the name of the victim.
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I actually LOVE LOVE this idea "in theory" but the other side of that coin is that many crimes in history were not given rightful attention UNTIL the public got involved. In a vacuum your idea is awesome. In reality it has hurdles. Again its not that I disagree with it and wouldnt be fully behind implementing it in ways because nothing is perfect. Im just saying it will easily have its flaws also. Especially with people in power(with influence) vs those that dont have it.
 
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Nilly said:
https://www.rainn.org/statistics

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

Primary source citations for the statistics I listed are at the bottom of the second link:
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The AAU study that most people get the 1 in 4 number from is laughably flawed, and includes a warning from the people who composed the study that it is neither representative nor complete. To quote HuffPo on what an accurate headline about that study would look like:

Approximately 1 in 4 of 19% of a Non-Representative Sample of Women Who Responded to a Non-Representative Survey of 27 Colleges (Out of Roughly 5,000) Reported Experiencing Sexual Assault, Where “Sexual Assault” is Taken to Mean Anything from Being on the Receiving End of an Unsolicited Kiss to Forcible Penetration at Gunpoint, Regardless of the Particular Context
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The actual Bureau of Justice statistics reflect much lower numbers. I recommend starting with Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College-Age Females, 1995–2013. Their numbers are reflective of young women, both in and out of college, and it a picture roughly one order of magnitude less abhorrent than the "1 in 4" number out of the horribly misused AAU study. The other Bureau of Justice studies are, of course, important for understanding the full picture, but this one reflects the most targeted age group.

I also checked the citation behind the 1 in 6 number, and found a survey from 1998, which RAINN presents "for educational purposes only." They also said that the number of victims of rape and sexual assault has likely increased drastically, even though their Bureau of Justice sources indicate that both have been decreasing drastically. Again, I point to the college-aged women study which found a decrease of approximately 63% in the last 2 decades of rape & sexual assault.

In summary, it appears that RAINN includes two faulty and unreliable studies for the express purpose of making scary-sounding statistics for attention - literal memes, designed to spread faster & more virulently than the more accurate, yet boring information provided the BoJ studies.

Roughly 1 in 40 is frightening enough of a number without resorting to the use of painfully flawed studies.
 
Jesse Booth said:
The AAU study that most people get the 1 in 4 number from is laughably flawed, and includes a warning from the people who composed the study that it is neither representative nor complete. To quote HuffPo on what an accurate headline about that study would look like:



The actual Bureau of Justice statistics reflect much lower numbers. I recommend starting with Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College-Age Females, 1995–2013. Their numbers are reflective of young women, both in and out of college, and it a picture roughly one order of magnitude less abhorrent than the "1 in 4" number out of the horribly misused AAU study. The other Bureau of Justice studies are, of course, important for understanding the full picture, but this one reflects the most targeted age group.

I also checked the citation behind the 1 in 6 number, and found a survey from 1998, which RAINN presents "for educational purposes only." They also said that the number of victims of rape and sexual assault has likely increased drastically, even though their Bureau of Justice sources indicate that both have been decreasing drastically. Again, I point to the college-aged women study which found a decrease of approximately 63% in the last 2 decades of rape & sexual assault.

In summary, it appears that RAINN includes two faulty and unreliable studies for the express purpose of making scary-sounding statistics for attention - literal memes, designed to spread faster & more virulently than the more accurate, yet boring information provided the BoJ studies.

Roughly 1 in 40 is frightening enough of a number without resorting to the use of painfully flawed studies.
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Well, there is a problem using the Bureau of Justice statistics.. Those are the statistics of people who actually REPORTED the rapes. Many women won't report rape.. because of the victim blaming that goes on, and the stigmatism that is given to women, often by the male police officers and justice system for being raped.

I mean, in Iran they have a low reported rape amount. However, when women get hanged for making an accusation, that sort of cuts down on the number of women who are willing to report rapes you know.
 
RAMOSS said:
Well, there is a problem using the Bureau of Justice statistics.. Those are the statistics of people who actually REPORTED the rapes. Many women won't report rape.. because of the victim blaming that goes on, and the stigmatism that is given to women, often by the male police officers and justice system for being raped.

I mean, in Iran they have a low reported rape amount. However, when women get hanged for making an accusation, that sort of cuts down on the number of women who are willing to report rapes you know.
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The alternative appears to be near-baseless estimates established through faulty online/over the phone surveys that nobody actually responds to.
 
Jesse Booth said:
The alternative appears to be near-baseless estimates established through faulty online/over the phone surveys that nobody actually responds to.
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Yet, many women I know said did the #metoo, and they didn't report it to the police. If you acknowledge that, then you have to acknowledge the BOJ statistics are highly incomplete.
 
RAMOSS said:
Yet, many women I know said did the #metoo, and they didn't report it to the police. If you acknowledge that, then you have to acknowledge the BOJ statistics are highly incomplete.
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Upon a second check of that one study I kept harping on, they included sections about unreported rape & sexual assault (80% of the sample size for female students, age 18 to 24; 67% for nonstudents) gathered by the National Crime Victimization Survey. This makes the "1 in 6" phone survey and the "1 in 4 out of 19% of 27/5,000 schools got unsolicited kisses or more" surveys even more inappropriate to include in RAINN's sources.

The BoJ supplements at least some of their reports with surveys (which I will be examining later), and the two studies RAINN gets their garbage clickbait numbers from are still laughably flawed.
 
Jesse Booth said:
The AAU study that most people get the 1 in 4 number from is laughably flawed, and includes a warning from the people who composed the study that it is neither representative nor complete. To quote HuffPo on what an accurate headline about that study would look like:

The actual Bureau of Justice statistics reflect much lower numbers. I recommend starting with Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College-Age Females, 1995–2013. Their numbers are reflective of young women, both in and out of college, and it a picture roughly one order of magnitude less abhorrent than the "1 in 4" number out of the horribly misused AAU study. The other Bureau of Justice studies are, of course, important for understanding the full picture, but this one reflects the most targeted age group.

I also checked the citation behind the 1 in 6 number, and found a survey from 1998, which RAINN presents "for educational purposes only." They also said that the number of victims of rape and sexual assault has likely increased drastically, even though their Bureau of Justice sources indicate that both have been decreasing drastically. Again, I point to the college-aged women study which found a decrease of approximately 63% in the last 2 decades of rape & sexual assault.

In summary, it appears that RAINN includes two faulty and unreliable studies for the express purpose of making scary-sounding statistics for attention - literal memes, designed to spread faster & more virulently than the more accurate, yet boring information provided the BoJ studies.

Roughly 1 in 40 is frightening enough of a number without resorting to the use of painfully flawed studies.
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AAU Study? I'm not using an AAU study. You can see that in the citations.

You're calling them faulty and unreliable studies, what, because one is for 'educational purposes'???? What are you talking about - that's simply to say it's not for commercial use lol. And the other isn't even the report I'm citing? My first citation is the Bureau of Justice. Are BJS numbers reliable or not? In paragraph two of your post you say they are but in your summary you seem to have changed your mind???

Here is the BJS report used as citation for statistic 1:

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv16.pdf

If you check page 5 for table 2:

Violent and property victimization, by type of crime, 2016
Type of crime | Number | Rate per 1,000
Rape or sexual assault | 323,450 | 1.2
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So that's 323,450 incidents a year. Divide by (365 * 24 * 60) and you get 0.6 incidents per minute. Putting us at around 1 incident every 100 seconds. In line with the so called 'meme'. And this is using an actual Bureau of Justice Dept report.

Page 17 details the methodology used to determine what a sexual assault is. I've had a scan and it seems fairly legitimate to me. Let me know if you think otherwise.

Here's the study quoted in my citation for statistic 2

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf

Discussed in this Brief: Results of a nationally representative telephone survey of 8,000 women and 8,000 men about their experiences with rape, physical assault, and stalking cosponsored by the National Institute of Justice and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and conducted by the Center for Policy Research.

Using a definition of physical assault that includes a range of behaviors, from slapping and hitting to using a gun, the survey found that physical assault is widespread among American women: 52 percent of surveyed women said they were physically assaulted as a child by an adult caretaker and/or as an adult by any type of perpetrator; 1.9 percent of surveyed women said they were physically assaulted in the previous 12 months. Based on these estimates, approximately 1.9 million women are physically assaulted annually in the United States.

● Using a definition of rape that includes forced vaginal, oral, and anal intercourse, the survey found that rape is a crime committed primarily against youth: 18 percent of women surveyed said they experienced a completed or attempted rape at some time in their life and 0.3 percent said they experienced a completed or attempted rape in the previous 12 months. Of the women who reported being raped at some time in their lives, 22 percent were under 12 years old and 32 percent were 12 to 17 years old when they were first raped. Given these findings, research and intervention strategies should focus on rapes perpetrated against children and adolescents.
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The bolded is where I imagine the 1 in 6 number came from. 18% is around one in six. The table labelled 'Exhibit One' gives a further breakdown (differentiating rape from physical assault). The number is shown as 17.6% there.

Likewise - survey methodology can be found on pages 13 and 14.
 
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DaveFagan said:
The MeToo movement seemed just fine until the FemiNazis media manipulators took charge. Now, it is a distorted movement run amock.
/
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Can you please show me some of this? Where did it happen? Can you please show something directly linked to the MeToo posts on Twitter? What is being 'manipulated?'
 
Jesse Booth said:
The AAU study that most people get the 1 in 4 number from is laughably flawed, and includes a warning from the people who composed the study that it is neither representative nor complete. To quote HuffPo on what an accurate headline about that study would look like:



The actual Bureau of Justice statistics reflect much lower numbers. I recommend starting with Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College-Age Females, 1995–2013. Their numbers are reflective of young women, both in and out of college, and it a picture roughly one order of magnitude less abhorrent than the "1 in 4" number out of the horribly misused AAU study. The other Bureau of Justice studies are, of course, important for understanding the full picture, but this one reflects the most targeted age group.

I also checked the citation behind the 1 in 6 number, and found a survey from 1998, which RAINN presents "for educational purposes only." They also said that the number of victims of rape and sexual assault has likely increased drastically, even though their Bureau of Justice sources indicate that both have been decreasing drastically. Again, I point to the college-aged women study which found a decrease of approximately 63% in the last 2 decades of rape & sexual assault.

In summary, it appears that RAINN includes two faulty and unreliable studies for the express purpose of making scary-sounding statistics for attention - literal memes, designed to spread faster & more virulently than the more accurate, yet boring information provided the BoJ studies.

Roughly 1 in 40 is frightening enough of a number without resorting to the use of painfully flawed studies.
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Now, as to your study regarding the annual figures (I haven't looked at this in detail but it may address your 1 in 40 number):

If act X is performed on 50% of a population last year, and on the other 50% of the population this year, then 100% of said population have had act X done to them at some point in the past, even if the average over 2 years is 50% of said population have act x done to them.

Now, this is an oversimplification of course, there is likely to be an overlap between the 50% in Y1 and the 50% in Y2. But when it comes to reporting whether act X has happened to people over at some point in the past (i.e. 1 in 6 women have been raped or sexually assaulted at some point in their lives) that number is not directly comparable to figuring out what percentage of the population have had act X done to them in a specific time frame.
 
Kal'Stang said:
This has actually been happening more and more...its not just a response to the #MeToo movement. It started before it. Too many false claims of sexual harassment/assault has been flung out there and mens lives ruined even though they were false allegations. It's only smart to protect yourself from such. ESPECIALLY in this litigious society we have now a days.
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And women have been doing it forever. The other OP he had on this tried to claim that women now had to choose between working directly with men OR sacrificing professional opportunities because they had to be/should now be segregated.

It's nothing especially new. HR representatives (of either gender) have been making sure there was a 2nd person in the room for many employee meetings.

Women have been making the exact same decisions for decades or more. Putting their safety ahead of their careers. And yes, it can mean a sacrifice professionally.

It's somewhat disingenuous (or maybe just the conclusions) because the abuse and/or accusations could come from ANY private meeting or work session.
 
MrShangles said:
You mean someone might lie. The media has been telling us that if someone accuses someone of something then we must believe the accusations and not ask for evidence, the MSM didn’t say The accuser might lie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If that's so common in the media, please post some examples. Examples claiming no evidence is required.
 
[video]http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/point-counterpoint-lee-marvin-and-michelle-triola/2846665?snl=1[/video]
 
Acadia said:
There are a myriad of reasons why women don't report and I'm not sure that has any bearing on ensuring that the #metoo movement doesn't unfairly punish men, which is a real danger to the underlying premise of #metoo.
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Oh the victimhood! And as yet...unproven. It's like the anti-gun people screaming there would be blood in the streets if concealed carry was allowed (15 yrs ago)...and yet...never happened, instances are very rare.

The goal of MeToo is to bring awareness to how prevalent sexual abuse and harassment are in our society and to enable women to feel safer in coming forward to report it.

It is a starting point to STOP it and to get justice through the proper channels.


What other solution do you suggest that wont "unfairly punish men?"
 
Lursa said:
Oh the victimhood! And as yet...unproven. It's like the anti-gun people screaming there would be blood in the streets if concealed carry was allowed (15 yrs ago)...and yet...never happened, instances are very rare.

The goal of MeToo is to bring awareness to how prevalent sexual abuse and harassment are in our society and to enable women to feel safer in coming forward to report it.

It is a starting point to STOP it and to get justice through the proper channels.


What other solution do you suggest that wont "unfairly punish men?"
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I'd start with properly vetting accusations and giving due process through the proper channels, ie: the law if any have been broken.
I'd hold women accountable for playing the victim when they willingly participated in relationship, thus ending the whole, "imbalance of power" canard.
I would set the expectation that women have a duty and responsibility to report men who assault them and further, call out their hypocrisy when they take money (or movie roles) in exchange for their silence.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No, it starts by making sure that both sides are not crapped on.

Here's a suggestion that may solve both problems.

How about we make it to where the whole thing is done in secrecy? IE: The woman reports that a man sexually assaulted/harassed her. From that point on the woman's (or mans) name is not released. The mans (or woman's) name is also not released. Once the investigation and court verdict is concluded in either direction then appropriate consequences are handed out for whoever did the wrong. Then the names may be released of the perpetrator, not the victim. If anyone at any time, (before, or during) releases the names then whoever it was that released the names is prosecuted for violating this new law. If the name of the victim is released after the investigation is concluded then whoever released the name is prosecuted for violating this new law. We could also make it against the law for newspapers/media to release the names under the same restrictions/guidelines.

This would have the advantage of making sure the man's life is not ruined if falsely accused and it would also make it to where a woman would not be afraid of embarrassment as their situation is kept strictly confidential. Both sides win with this.
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No investigation occurs in a vacuum. Records are sought, people are interviewed, employers/HR are involved. For most people (not the famous) this is enough to spread into their professional and personal lives. If attempts are to keep it secret, it only further fuels the rumor mill.

Not to mention that this behavior doesnt always rise to the level of criminal behavior. But women need to protect each other.

Why should we all keep quiet about low-brow sexual disrespect from men? That'll stop it. :doh

Privately telling them to knock it off or escaping may save you....but what about the next woman?

Hell even if you do get him to 'knock it off' or you could get away, why wouldnt you tell others about it? To enable them to avoid that pig or be prepared to defend themselves?
 
Nilly said:
AAU Study? I'm not using an AAU study. You can see that in the citations.

You're calling them faulty and unreliable studies, what, because one is for 'educational purposes'???? What are you talking about - that's simply to say it's not for commercial use lol. And the other isn't even the report I'm citing? My first citation is the Bureau of Justice. Are BJS numbers reliable or not? In one paragraph you say they are but in your summary you seem to have changed your mind???

Here is the study in the citation for statistic 1:

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv16.pdf

If you check page 5 for table 2:



So that's 323,450 incidents a year. Divide by (365 * 24 * 60) and you get 0.6 incidents per minute. Putting us at around 1 incident every 100 seconds. In line with the so called 'meme'. And this is using an actual Bureau of Justice Dept report.

Page 17 details the methodology used to determine what a sexual assault is. I've had a scan and it seems fairly legitimate to me. Let me know if you think otherwise.

Here's the study quoted in my citation for statistic 2

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/172837.pdf



The bolded is where I imagine the 1 in 6 number came from. 18% is around one in six. The table labelled 'Exhibit One' gives a further breakdown (differentiating rape from physical assault). The number is shown as 17.6% there.

Likewise - survey methodology can be found on pages 13 and 14.
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I was referring to that 1 in 6 study from the CDC, Nilly. I'm calling it out because it's such a faulty source, RAINN uses a decade out of date version with a disclaimer slapped onto it. from 1998, making it horribly outdated. It also asks people it surveys about various subjects, and lets the surveyors determine whether they were raped or not based on their responses. Here's an analysis of the flaws with the study, albeit with a more recent version of it, with a key excerpt below:

Consider: In a telephone survey with a 30 percent response rate, interviewers did not ask participants whether they had been raped. Instead of such straightforward questions, the CDC researchers described a series of sexual encounters and then they determined whether the responses indicated sexual violation. A sample of 9,086 women was asked, for example, “When you were drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent, how many people ever had vaginal sex with you?” A majority of the 1.3 million women (61.5 percent) the CDC projected as rape victims in 2010 experienced this sort of “alcohol or drug facilitated penetration.”
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If that sounds like an unscientific and biased method of survey, that's because it is. This is the methodology by which 1 in 6 women (1 in 4 women nowadays, and apparently 1 in 4 men as well) were found to be the victims of sexual assault: by surveyors asking if they've ever had sex while drunk, then deciding that a "yes" counted as rape. This is why their study is flawed, and why the spooky scary statistic at the top of RAINN's page is a literal meme: "an element of a culture or system of behavior that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, especially imitation." It's just an easily-remembered number that lots of people pass along without regard for the unscientific and unreliable context.
 
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