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Do Women Cheat For Better Sex and Men For A Different Taste?

I'm guessing they all cheat for the same reasons, but you may get it may have a statistical variance in which categories are more/less prominent.
There are without a doubt women that cheat for better sex, more sex, more love, simply attention to wake their own spouse up, because they are getting older, because they fall in love, etc., etc.
 
So, as a poly person, is cheating even a thing? Or, do you have a closed relationship with multiple people? I'm not really into poly lovers. Not that I'm too jealous of a person. But, it is just too non-traditional even for an acid soaked raver kid like me.

Yeah, cheating is a thing. In fact a lot of people use poly as an excuse to cheat. If you hide it or continue to see someone that doesnt mix well with your other partners. Many would consider that cheating. Poly requires a great deal of honesty. More than most people are comfortable with. And its not really about the sex, thats just a bonus. Its having multiple deep connections that satisfy your need.

Jealousy happens, but thats usually a sign that you're feeling in secure, and this is where that honesty comes in. You gotta be able to say, hey I'm jealous, I need some of that to. And do it wothout a guilt trip. If you can do that, you can usually work out most problems.
 
If my husband ever cheats on me, I assume it's because he wants to be killed

:lamo Tell it, SheWolf!

Risky's choice for the most honest response in this thread. Good on you. :applaud
 
1. Most men are more offended if a woman sleeps with another man than if she sleeps with another woman, because socially we don't see lesbian sex as being "real sex."

Small point, but I've ran into that sentiment on here before. Acting like Penis + Vagina is the only way to have sexual intercourse. It's so dumb.
 
Oh, cheating exists in polyamory, in most cases. It does for me, although I hate that particular term. Just... sounds juvenile to me. But, obviously you still have issues of time managment, health, etc to consider. I may decide not to date a given person with sexual behaviors I deem riskier than what I want to take on in my life. I may break up with someone if I find they have lied about it. It's not because of who touched them. It's more because I consider lying to be pretty much zero-forgiveness when my partner already knows they could talk to me if they wanted, and because I am not interested in high-risk lifestyles. That impacts my body too, not just theirs.

So, polyamory does have a structure. It's not all freewheelin' good times lit by lava lamps. However, I have a bone to pick with the cheating aspect. And you haven't been lucid enough for me about what cheating entails in polyamory. For one, I can't see the pain from cheating being the same as in monogamy. In monogamy, you are completely vulnerable to one other person. With polyamory you are shielding yourself from being hurt the same way a monogamist can be. I contend you are less willing to make yourself vulnerable to another person. Because if you get cheated on, you have an instant rebound.. because you have a harem of lovers to get even with. Whether it's physcial or just coffee, you still have many options.

Anyway, what would make for healthier relationships whether they're monogamous or not (and no doubt, plenty of polyamorists are doing it poorly -- they all come out of our unhealthy style of cultural monogamy, after all) is a couple things.

You seem to be arguing not only for polyamory but, against monogamy. Do you think the world would be a better place if the institution of marriage was abolished?

Firstly, we need to stop prioritizing our egos above our partner's needs. At the heart of a lot of relationship issues that eventually end in cheating is just the simple truth that people's needs change over time. Emotionally, physically, in all sorts of ways. And our model of monogamy mandates perfect consistency, decade after decade, until you drop dead, in order to avoid challenging your partner's ego. That is completely unrealistic, and it's not healthy. If you're going to be with someone for decades, then you need to commit to being there for what THEY are going to need over those decades, not just commiting to your own desire to feel unthreatened.

That sounds to me like people need to humble themselves. It sounds like people need to learn empathy. It sounds like they need to ask their partner the hard questions like, "Do I take you seriously enough? When you are older, will you have regrets? Does death scare you? And how can I help you avoid feeling like you've squandered your time here?" How many wives and husbands ask those questions? And how many just commute through life going through the motions.

On the other side of that, we need to stop making our partners so responsibile for such a totality of our needs. Where the cheated-on justifies their unwillingness to consider their partner's ever-changing needs by appealing to their own ego, the cheater justifies their cheating by projecting responsibility for their needs onto their partner in such a way that their failure to forsee them justifies betrayal. At the end of the day, they don't know what we don't tell them (for fear of challenging their ego), and one person cannot meet every need we have. That, too, is completely unrealistic (and there are plenty of realistic fixes for that in a monogamous model -- the way we drift away from our families and friends after we partner, for example, makes this problem so much worse than it needs to be).

Your partner is not responsible for reading your mind, and you are not responsible for their ego. Your partner cannot meet 100% of your human needs, and you cannot own them. And that needs to be accepted in a monogamous model just as much as any other model in order to have a healthy dynamic where people can actually flourish rather than just exist.

It sounds like you disagree that lovers are supposed to be heros, etc. Fairy tales are fairy tales. The world is not a romance, no guy can be the perfect guy every time, and no girl can either. Your saying it's wrong for someone to expect perfection and.. magic for lack of a better term. I consider myself a reasonable person, so I'd just like to be reasonably happy. Is it important to you to be involved in a relationship? Also, I'd like to know if you place any value in the conventional wisdom that 'You cannot love someone else, until you love yourself."
 
So, polyamory does have a structure. It's not all freewheelin' good times lit by lava lamps. However, I have a bone to pick with the cheating aspect. And you haven't been lucid enough for me about what cheating entails in polyamory. For one, I can't see the pain from cheating being the same as in monogamy. In monogamy, you are completely vulnerable to one other person. With polyamory you are shielding yourself from being hurt the same way a monogamist can be. I contend you are less willing to make yourself vulnerable to another person. Because if you get cheated on, you have an instant rebound.. because you have a harem of lovers to get even with. Whether it's physcial or just coffee, you still have many options.

It's gonna depend on the person. An aspect of polyamory culture that is different from monogamy culture is that there is no "one way." People don't just walk into it making a bunch of assumptions that it's going to work like X. They have to actually talk and decide that. But, again, I find that phrase really juvenile. It's not a board game, it's a relationship. So I tend to class any given infraction by its root: lying, deceptiveness, recklessness, whatever.

For me, I am generally not very down with telling people what to do. If I think your general lifestyle doesn't mesh with mine, I just won't date you. I also like to just know what's going on, because I am a naturally untrusting person and I like knowing things in general.

Again, you seem to believe that all of the emotional value of a partner springs from owning their body. I find that insulting as ****. And if anything, there has been more vulnerability in my poly relationships, because I am being more myself (no, not because of sex -- it's because when there's no assumptions made and you have to actually talk, that means you have to actually express who you are).

Again, with this bizarre fantasy you have that polyamory = ****ing anyone you meet. No matter how many times I correct you and even give you examples of relationships with no sex at all, or where there is no dating outside the current relationship, you're just utterly obssessed with it. You can't stop thinking about it. Why are all of you like this? It's so weird. Seriously.

And if monogamy means to you that your parrtner's not allowed to get coffee with people... jesus christ, dude. I mean, I would hope everyone has the option of getting a damn coffee after a break-up. That's called having friends. What the hell?

And actually, after I broke up with my last partner, I became completely uninvolved and have no plans to change that in the near future. I'm sure you'll just continue ignoring what I'm saying, as you seem to be enjoying the fantasy in your head, but I am apparently a lot less pre-occupied with sex than you are.

You seem to be arguing not only for polyamory but, against monogamy. Do you think the world would be a better place if the institution of marriage was abolished?

I am arguing against our particular way of handling monogamy, not monogamy as a whole. But as it just so happens, I do think we'd be better off if the government got out of marriage and stopped trying to tell people what their families are allowed to look like, yes.

That sounds to me like people need to humble themselves. It sounds like people need to learn empathy. It sounds like they need to ask their partner the hard questions like, "Do I take you seriously enough? When you are older, will you have regrets? Does death scare you? And how can I help you avoid feeling like you've squandered your time here?" How many wives and husbands ask those questions? And how many just commute through life going through the motions.

You say they need to "learn empathy," but you're guilty of many of these things yourself. You're guilty of putting your ego above the reality of changing human beings and their actual needs.

It sounds like you disagree that lovers are supposed to be heros, etc. Fairy tales are fairy tales. The world is not a romance, no guy can be the perfect guy every time, and no girl can either. Your saying it's wrong for someone to expect perfection and.. magic for lack of a better term. I consider myself a reasonable person, so I'd just like to be reasonably happy. Is it important to you to be involved in a relationship? Also, I'd like to know if you place any value in the conventional wisdom that 'You cannot love someone else, until you love yourself."

Relationships are probably the single most important thing to me. And as it happens, I actually do believe in heroes and magic. I do because I've lived through those things, and continue to. It's never Disney, but sometimes it's legitimately YA-esque. Far from being detached, I think I'm far more hooked in than you are.

That phrase has always struck me as somewhat banal. Truthy without actually meaning anything.
 
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Or, do both sexes cheat for the same reason? Adventure? Excitement?

I have the idea that women cheat because they aren't having good enough sex. Whereas men cheat just to have another drink from the loving cup.

Everybody cheats for there own reasons gender doesnt matter. Of course some overlap but thats it.
 
Again, you seem to believe that all of the emotional value of a partner springs from owning their body. I find that insulting as ****. And if anything, there has been more vulnerability in my poly relationships, because I am being more myself (no, not because of sex -- it's because when there's no assumptions made and you have to actually talk, that means you have to actually express who you are).

Again, with this bizarre fantasy you have that polyamory = ****ing anyone you meet. No matter how many times I correct you and even give you examples of relationships with no sex at all, or where there is no dating outside the current relationship, you're just utterly obssessed with it. You can't stop thinking about it. Why are all of you like this? It's so weird. Seriously.

I don't believe polyamory means promiscuity. It does mean that you have multiple lovers simultaneously. So, my point is valid. When you get cheated on, you have a safety net. You have spread your feelings and your needs out into many different partners. You have a partner you talk deeply to, a partner you cook with, a partner who helps you with your taxes, a partner you exercise with, etc. So, when you get cheated on by one of those many, I contend it hurts a fraction of being cheated on by someone who was all of those things in one to you. I haven't seen you refute that point. No amount of distorting that point into me being a misogynist will knock that down. And I don't think me placing all of my trust in one person to be all of those things for me, is anywhere near the picture you paint of me: the sex crazed misogynist who owns women's bodies. I could just as easily characterize yours as wanting to 'own their mind'. Neither are good looks for people and both are far from the reality of our views on love. Maybe you've met some real asshole boyfriends. I don't know. but, I let my girlfriends be themselves and even flirt with guys provided they don't cross a line. But, I'm sure that's just me being a sex crazed misogynist who wants to lock his girlfriend in a dungeon.

And if monogamy means to you that your parrtner's not allowed to get coffee with people... jesus christ, dude. I mean, I would hope everyone has the option of getting a damn coffee after a break-up. That's called having friends. What the hell?

That's not what I said. I said when you get cheated on you have an instant rebound, whether you want to get even with sex or just talk about it over coffee. you have the options at your fingertips. Not everyone does. I don't limit my girlfriends in that way. Basically the only limitations I would put on them is I don't want them engaging in sexual activity with other people. I wouldn't want them going on a vacation with an ex-boyfriend. etc.

I am arguing against our particular way of handling monogamy, not monogamy as a whole. But as it just so happens, I do think we'd be better off if the government got out of marriage and stopped trying to tell people what their families are allowed to look like, yes.

Okay, that's good to hear. I agree with you, and I dismiss the right wing fanatics whos say that Adam & Steve will lead to people marrying pigs and ****.



You say they need to "learn empathy," but you're guilty of many of these things yourself. You're guilty of putting your ego above the reality of changing human beings and their actual needs.

This sounds like rhetoric to me. I put my ego above the reality of changing human beings and their needs? Here's what I do: I set aside an evolutionary remainder: the instinct to spread my seed, because my instinct to procreate is so strong, that I would like to mate with almost any young, pretty girl that smiles at me. I set that monumental desire aside in order to honor someone else's feelings and engage in that type of behavior with her exclusively. In that sense we touch, breathe, and feel the rarefied air of intimacy, because we have chosen each other. I don't expect her to make me 100% happy. I don't expect her to be perfect. I expect us to have hard times. I expect us to disagree. But, the point of us choosing each other, is that we do something to each other physically and emotionally. So in that sense our egos become like a Venn diagram through intimacy.
 
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Relationships are probably the single most important thing to me. And as it happens, I actually do believe in heroes and magic. I do because I've lived through those things, and continue to. It's never Disney, but sometimes it's legitimately YA-esque. Far from being detached, I think I'm far more hooked in than you are.

That phrase has always struck me as somewhat banal. Truthy without actually meaning anything.

I commend your aim, as relationships are vastly more important to me than advancing myself in a career or, hoarding wealth. And rather than being obsessed with sex, I am far more infatuated with intangible qualities like shared joy and euphoria. Despite my requirement that my partners not sleep with anyone else.
 
I don't believe polyamory means promiscuity. It does mean that you have multiple lovers simultaneously. So, my point is valid. When you get cheated on, you have a safety net. You have spread your feelings and your needs out into many different partners. You have a partner you talk deeply to, a partner you cook with, a partner who helps you with your taxes, a partner you exercise with, etc. So, when you get cheated on by one of those many, I contend it hurts a fraction of being cheated on by someone who was all of those things in one to you. I haven't seen you refute that point. No amount of distorting that point into me being a misogynist will knock that down. And I don't think me placing all of my trust in one person is anywhere near the picture you paint of me: the sex crazed misogynist who owns women's bodies. I could just as easily characterize yours as wanting to 'own their mind'.

Polyamory is a method, which one may choose in the long-term, and therefore continue to identify with regardless of their current status, in the same way single monogamous people still identify as being monogamists. It doesn't mean anything about what your love life currently looks like. Again, I'm single. And as predicted, you simply ignored that bit.

Where on earth do you get the idea that partners are "divvied up" like that? That is just weird, and has nothing to do with reality or the nature of how humans interact.

As far as it "not hurting" when one gets betrayed as long as they have other partners, lemme ask you something: if you have two siblings, and one of them dies, do you say to yourself, "Oh well, no big, I have another one"? If you do, then I think you need a therapist.

You seem to look at relationships as nothing but contracts, rather than connections people are invested in on their own terms. I don't. I'm invested on its own terms. That is the refutation. It's called normal human emotion.

My portrayal is based on what you've actually said: that there's no reason to care about anyone if you have a replacement for them, that your judgment of a partner's worthiness comes down to whether they let you dictate the terms of their body, etc. Those are your claims, not mine.

Also, I have no idea how allowing people to decide who they are for themselves is equivalent to "owning their minds."

That's not what I said. I said when you get cheated on you have an instant rebound, whether you want to get even with sex or just talk about it over coffee. you have the options at your fingertips. Not everyone does. I don't limit my girlfriends in that way. Basically the only limitations I would put on them is I don't want them engaging in sexual activity with other people. I wouldn't want them going on a vacation with an ex-boyfriend. etc.

Actually I don't, SINCE I'M SINGLE. Earth to Winston. :roll: Plus, friends get coffee too. I know, crazy.

But also, not everyone is so emotionally immature that they just go out and screw people whenever they're hurting.

This sounds like rhetoric to me. I put my ego above the reality of changing human beings and their needs? I set aside an evolutionary remainder: the instinct to spread my seed, because my instinct to procreate is so strong, that I would like to mate with almost a girl that smiles at me. I set my desire aside in order to honor someone else's feelings and engage in that type of behavior with her exclusively. In that sense we touch, breathe, and feel theair of intimacy, because we've chosen each other. I don't expect her to make me 100% happy. But, the point of us choosing each other, is that we do something to each other physically and emotionally. our egos become like a Venn diagram through intimacy.

Evolutionary psychology is a debunked pseudo-science that exists for the sole purpose of justifying misogyny. So please don't spout ev-psych at me, or try to justify yourself with it. It's about as meaningful as telling me you can read my palm, and about as offensive as telling me that Gaia wants me to breed for the planet.

In reality, there is no evidence in anthropology or sociology that men function that way, or would function that way if not for being constrained by a suffocating and inflexible social mandate of how to date. Men are social, emotional maters just like women. And women are actually more novelty-seeking than men, when it comes to their partners.

The fact that you think sex is the only thing that matters in "choosing each other," or that sex is the main modality of experiencing intimacy, speaks volumes.

Sorry if I'm comin' at you strong, but if you're gonna sit here and tell me I'm unfeeling towards the people I love most simply because I don't live how you prefer, and then explain to me how people are unimportant as long as you have a replacement lined up, I'm not going to go easy on you.
 
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But there's already an assumption in there that it is physically impossible for someone to care about someone else, while also caring about you.

That's untrue. You seem to be misinterpreting what i'm saying.

Let's say that you and another woman are both deathly ill in different hospitals. A man you care about is in a relationship with both of you. Who does he visit? He can't visit both at the same time.

The point of marriage is that you put someone else's concerns above even your own. You can't do that for more than one person.

The theory of partial differential equations proves that you cannot maximize or minimize more than one variable at a time. Something must have priority. You may seek a relationship where you have no expectation of priority on the basis that you enjoy having multiple partners. I'm happy to limit my physical behavior for the emotional assurance of a exclusively committed partner. Sex is just the most intimate manifestation of that commitment. There is no obsession with sex.

That assumption doesn't make any sense to me. Our partners often love lots of other people in a variety of ways, and we don't see this as threatening. Indeed, it's abusive to try to tell your partner they shouldn't have other people in their lives.

That's also a misrepresentation. I'm not claiming that my partner can have no other relationships, i'm simply expecting an exclusive relationship. The terms of the relationship are our own to make.

Our culture only sees it as threatening, and therefore consideres it ok to be controlling in this manner, if you're making an assumption that there is a possibility of sex, which monogamous culture is strangely obsessed with.

There's no necessary "controlling" by the partner. It's an exercise of mutual self-restraint for the purpose of meeting or exceeding mutual expectations.

That comes out even in your response. Although I've just explained otherwise in literally the post you just quoted, you continue to assume that polyamory -- or indeed, relationships in general -- are almost entirely about sex, because you just can't see them any other way.

Please explain what you're referring to. Going out to dinner? Seeing a movie? Because we can do stuff like that with our parents.

Hugging? Getting emotional support?

Friends can do those things, too. What makes it a "poly" relationship rather than a monogamous relationship with friends if not intimacy with other people? The ability to abandon any partner with no notice?

Monogamy doesn't mean that you're not allowed to have ANY other relationships. It just means that you have one special relationship. That generally implies sexual fidelity but it doesn't require it.

How one behaves sexually is the sum total of whether they are judged to be loyal, decent patners. How utterly weird, in light of everything that relationships truly are, and indeed, that some relationships don't even include sex to begin with. I would consider that insulting, if that was how my partner judged me.

These are the people we build our homes with, share our fears with, raise children with... but all that matters to you in judging their worthiness is sex?

I just don't understand that. It makes no sense to me.

Not exactly, you can be cheated on emotionally when your partner has a stronger emotional bond with someone else, that's just more contextual and therefore more difficult to articulate. If you have more interest in other people than you have with a given partner, it stands to reason that the partner is less important to you. I like the idea of someone explicitly committing to me in return for my commitment to them.
 
That's untrue. You seem to be misinterpreting what i'm saying.

Let's say that you and another woman are both deathly ill in different hospitals. A man you care about is in a relationship with both of you. Who does he visit? He can't visit both at the same time.

The point of marriage is that you put someone else's concerns above even your own. You can't do that for more than one person.

The theory of partial differential equations proves that you cannot maximize or minimize more than one variable at a time. Something must have priority. You may seek a relationship where you have no expectation of priority on the basis that you enjoy having multiple partners. I'm happy to limit my physical behavior for the emotional assurance of a exclusively committed partner. Sex is just the most intimate manifestation of that commitment. There is no obsession with sex.

What if the people who are ill are your wife and your child, in different hospitals due to needing different specialist care?

Exact same problem. And this is the point, when I say expecting one person to do everything is unrealistic even under monogamous conditions. It's setting yourself up for failure to cut off the rest of your support network like that.

And as I said earlier, this sort of short-sighed behavior isn't necessarily required for monogamy, but culturally, that is how we tend to do it, and that expectation is implied in your assumption that this somehow wouldn't be an issue if only the people involved were monogamous. That, somehow, if they were monogamous, they'd just become super-human and be able to do everything. This is why so many relationships are so miserable, and so many people feel neglected, over-stretched, and over-demanded of in their relationships.

Please explain what you're referring to. Going out to dinner? Seeing a movie? Because we can do stuff like that with our parents.

Hugging? Getting emotional support?

Friends can do those things, too. What makes it a "poly" relationship rather than a monogamous relationship with friends if not intimacy with other people? The ability to abandon any partner with no notice?

Monogamy doesn't mean that you're not allowed to have ANY other relationships. It just means that you have one special relationship. That generally implies sexual fidelity but it doesn't require it.

Romance feels different from other feelings even in the absense of sex, just like friendship feels different from parental bond. If you don't "get that" and see nothing unique about romance apart from ****ing, then clearly we have different ranges of emotional aptitutde, and I'm afraid I just can't explain it to you.

How on earth does poly indicate "abandoning any partner with no notice"? These are relationships, dude. What is with monogamists believing that if you don't have some sort of mutually assured destruction with your partner, then no one would ever care about each other? Yuck.

Not exactly, you can be cheated on emotionally when your partner has a stronger emotional bond with someone else, that's just more contextual and therefore more difficult to articulate. If you have more interest in other people than you have with a given partner, it stands to reason that the partner is less important to you. I like the idea of someone explicitly committing to me in return for my commitment to them.

I do not see how explicit commitment excludes the possibility of commiting to anyone else. Indeed, most of us are commited to more than one person, even if we are monogamous. We just call it something else.
 
Sorry if I'm comin' at you strong, but if you're gonna sit here and tell me I'm unfeeling towards the people I love most simply because I don't live how you prefer, and then explain to me how people are unimportant as long as you have a replacement lined up, I'm not going to go easy on you.

I haven't become irritated with our exchange, because I feel like we are actually discussing opposing viewpoints, rather than preaching with ear muffs on.

Polyamory is a method, which one may choose in the long-term, and therefore continue to identify with regardless of their current status, in the same way single monogamous people still identify as being monogamists. It doesn't mean anything about what your love life currently looks like. Again, I'm single. And as predicted, you simply ignored that bit.

Where on earth do you get the idea that partners are "divvied up" like that? That is just weird, and has nothing to do with reality or the nature of how humans interact.

As far as it "not hurting" when one gets betrayed as long as they have other partners, lemme ask you something: if you have two siblings, and one of them dies, do you say to yourself, "Oh well, no big, I have another one"? If you do, then I think you need a therapist.

Well, I got the idea that partners are divvied up from you. but, I think a proper term would be, you have specialized partners. According to you, one person is incapable of meeting a partner's every need. One person can't do it all. And it's wrong to demand that one partner fulfill needs they are incapable of fulfilling. So, my argument is that since a poly person has their needs spread throughout many different partners, compared to monogamists, it hurts less to lose one, because they still have many of their needs met. Whereas when a monogamist loses their partner, they lose everything in one fell swoop. So, it's a comparison to monogamists. I'm just using cold hard logic here. Obviously, you are capable of loving and losing many people simultaneously. But, if I'm to take your reasoning for poly, this premise must be true:

I am with many different lovers because they all satisfy different needs for me.

So, if you lose one, logic allows me to deduce that you have not lost all of your needs. If you are a monogamist, however, you have.

You seem to look at relationships as nothing but contracts, rather than connections people are invested in on their own terms. I don't. I'm invested on its own terms. That is the refutation. It's called normal human emotion.

Contracts, sure, although unwritten. But, relationships are agreements as contracts are.

My portrayal is based on what you've actually said: that there's no reason to care about anyone if you have a replacement for them, that your judgment of a partner's worthiness comes down to whether they let you dictate the terms of their body, etc. Those are your claims, not mine.

I believe I've explained my reasoning.

Also, I have no idea how allowing people to decide who they are for themselves is equivalent to "owning their minds."

Well, it's not, it was an illustration of the absurdity of your claim that I demand body ownership of a girlfriend. Thinking that exclusivity is body ownership is not rooted in reality. For example, she can get a tattoo, she can get a piercing. She can eat what she wants. She can let herself go. She can dye her hair green. That's all still her choice to do with her body as she pleases. None of that would hurt my feelings. I can communicate my opinion, but, her body is her sovereign domain. Just because we sleep together exclusively, doesn't mean she transfers ownership of her body to me. I very much disagree with this idea you have.



Actually I don't, SINCE I'M SINGLE. Earth to Winston. :roll: Plus, friends get coffee too. I know, crazy.

But also, not everyone is so emotionally immature that they just go out and screw people whenever they're hurting.

Right, the coffee thing was just me illustrating a point. Friends get coffee, friends get lunch, friends go to the movies, it's not all romantic outings all the time.
 
Evolutionary psychology is a debunked pseudo-science that exists for the sole purpose of justifying misogyny.

citation needed

So please don't spout ev-psych at me, or try to justify yourself with it. It's about as meaningful as telling me you can read my palm, and about as offensive as telling me that Gaia wants me to breed for the planet.

In reality, there is no evidence in anthropology or sociology that men function that way, or would function that way if not for being constrained by a suffocating and inflexible social mandate of how to date. Men are social, emotional maters just like women. And women are actually more novelty-seeking than men, when it comes to their partners.

The fact that you think sex is the only thing that matters in "choosing each other," or that sex is the main modality of experiencing intimacy, speaks volumes.

Sex is not the only thing that matters. In fact most of my girlfriends I accepted before we ever did it. So, that kind of speaks volumes, IMO. Sex is important but, it's also something that can be taught. A few things that attract me to girls would be an interesting worldview, ability to emote, sense of humor, and of course looks too.
 
What if the people who are ill are your wife and your child, in different hospitals due to needing different specialist care?

Irrelevant. You missed the point.

Would you leave your wife alone at the hospital to go visit another lover?

Exact same problem. And this is the point, when I say expecting one person to do everything is unrealistic even under monogamous conditions. It's setting yourself up for failure to cut off the rest of your support network like that.

No it isn't. There's no "cutting off". There's just a unique bond.

You don't want it? Fine. But you don't have to be so arrogant toward those who do. It's completely realistic, people mate for life as a matter of routine. It simply may not be your cup of tea.

And as I said earlier, this sort of short-sighed behavior isn't necessarily required for monogamy, but culturally, that is how we tend to do it, and that expectation is implied in your assumption that this somehow wouldn't be an issue if only the people involved were monogamous. That, somehow, if they were monogamous, they'd just become super-human and be able to do everything. This is why so many relationships are so miserable, and so many people feel neglected, over-stretched, and over-demanded of in their relationships.

There's nothing short-sighted there. I don't think i understand what you're trying to say.

I feel like you may be saying that you'll inevitably be disappointed with your partner, so it's nice to have others to lean on. I prefer communicating with my one partner to satisfy the disappointment to determine whether compromise or acceptance is suitable. Problems need to be addressed, rather than avoided.

Romance feels different from other feelings even in the absense of sex, just like friendship feels different from parental bond. If you don't "get that" and see nothing unique about romance apart from ****ing, then clearly we have different ranges of emotional aptitutde, and I'm afraid I just can't explain it to you.

So you have nothing but an anecdote that you cannot articulate.

Intimate friendship is ... friendship. Without attraction, there is no romance. Without desire, there is no attraction.

Now you seem to be claiming that you can be attracted to someone emotionally but not physically. To the extent that that's true, it's irrelevant. If there's nothing unique or exclusive to the connection, then it is disposable.

How on earth does poly indicate "abandoning any partner with no notice"? These are relationships, dude. What is with monogamists believing that if you don't have some sort of mutually assured destruction with your partner, then no one would ever care about each other? Yuck.

? What mutually assured destruction?

Nobody is destroyed, the relationship can simply be abandoned. If you're happy being perpetually single, in effect, that's fine. Other people want to have a dependable, stable relationship. There's no reason for that to threaten you.

I do not see how explicit commitment excludes the possibility of commiting to anyone else. Indeed, most of us are commited to more than one person, even if we are monogamous. We just call it something else.

It doesn't, it's just that it's not commitment if there's no obligation or constraint.
 
Well, I got the idea that partners are divvied up from you. but, I think a proper term would be, you have specialized partners. According to you, one person is incapable of meeting a partner's every need. One person can't do it all. And it's wrong to demand that one partner fulfill needs they are incapable of fulfilling. So, my argument is that since a poly person has their needs spread throughout many different partners, compared to monogamists, it hurts less to lose one, because they still have many of their needs met. Whereas when a monogamist loses their partner, they lose everything in one fell swoop. So, it's a comparison to monogamists. I'm just using cold hard logic here. Obviously, you are capable of loving and losing many people simultaneously. But, if I'm to take your reasoning for poly, this premise must be true:

I am with many different lovers because they all satisfy different needs for me.

So, if you lose one, logic allows me to deduce that you have not lost all of your needs. If you are a monogamist, however, you have.

Um... I don't think you get it.

The point is that our needs are resource intensive, beyond what one person can manage in most cases. That includes the need for a number of redundancies. That's why two parents works better than one, despite the fact that they are usually providing a lot of redundant things.

But, apart from that, I'd posit that no one's partner provides all or even most of their needs anyway. I have yet to ever meet anyone whose partner shares all their hobbies, all their conversational interests, and knows something about every single thing they don't know much about. That doesn't exist. There's simply too many things.

That's why most of us have friends and family, and that's why the majority of people who wind up neglecting their friends and family after partnering, as our society demands since we're supposed to get everything from just our partner, report being depressed and stressed out. Humans are creatures of community. We desire to feel as if we have a place in the world. Shutting ourselves off from most of a social circle by expecting this one human to do everything tends to both hamper our ability to survive comfortably, and strain our mental health.

You're thinking of this as though relationships only exist to fulfill some sort of service for you. I'm thinking of it in the sense that human needs are complex, intensive, and also ever-changing, and community is, in itself, a fundamental human need.

But even if I am to take your assertion that relationships exist only to service you, you've just made a very good argument for why our cultural concept of monogamy where you neglect all your other relationships and expect this one person to do everything is actually an insanely bad idea: if you lose them, your mental and physical safety is completely destroyed. That is a horrible position for a human being to be in. Expecting your partner to do that to themselves is not "commitment," it's cruelty. I would never try to force my partner to compromise their well-being that way.

The fact that I would never do something like that to someone, and will not allow others to do that to me, is exactly the reason the monogamy pool didn't work out for me, even though I had no trouble with sexual fidelity. It wasn't a desire to **** people that drove me out of the pool. It wasn't even a romantic entanglement, or anything of that nature. It was this possessive, coersive mindset that poisonous our mainstream coupling culture.

I could take or leave multiple relationships, honestly. I rarely wind up dating multiple people, in reality. But the poly pool has a lot fewer people in it who feel that it's acceptable to force their partners into risking their well-being and denying the fulfillment of their needs -- romantic or not. It's full of people who have spent a lot of time working on communication and considering what a healthy dynamic actually looks like, whereas the mainstream monogamy pool just tells people to follow the script and not think too hard about it.

I could just as easily be a monogamist, in theory, in a healthier culture. But not in this toxic sort of culture, where you just tried to argue that it's a good thing that your partner would be destroyed without you, without even a hint of self-awareness or shame.
 
Contracts, sure, although unwritten. But, relationships are agreements as contracts are.


Ergh. Yuck. Not to me they're not, so speak for yourself.


Well, it's not, it was an illustration of the absurdity of your claim that I demand body ownership of a girlfriend. Thinking that exclusivity is body ownership is not rooted in reality. For example, she can get a tattoo, she can get a piercing. She can eat what she wants. She can let herself go. She can dye her hair green. That's all still her choice to do with her body as she pleases. None of that would hurt my feelings. I can communicate my opinion, but, her body is her sovereign domain. Just because we sleep together exclusively, doesn't mean she transfers ownership of her body to me. I very much disagree with this idea you have.


So your argument is that because your ownership doesnt extend to literally everything, that means it doesn't count? Hm, so if a slave can do their own hair, does that mean they're not a slave?


(Yes, I know it's an extreme example -- the point stands. Also keep in mind we are not talking about the concept of monogamy itself, we are talking about the social modality where it is not honesty that matters, but simply bodily possession that matters, as I have already demonstrated.)


Right, the coffee thing was just me illustrating a point. Friends get coffee, friends get lunch, friends go to the movies, it's not all romantic outings all the time.


So what was your point, then? Your claim that we don't lose anything because we all have a dozen other people we're ****ing (which is completely wrong anyway, and also incredibly degrading towards people's feelings in their relationships) doesn't work, so if the coffee thing doesn't either, what's your point?


citation needed


There's so damn much of it that it's unwieldy to try to dump it on you in mass, so I'm just gonna give you a place to start.


https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology


Don't use this sort of garbage if you expect to be taken seriously.
 
Irrelevant. You missed the point.

Would you leave your wife alone at the hospital to go visit another lover?

It's exactly relevant. You just don't want to deal with it because it shows the glaring flaw in your argument. The fact is, monogamists have the exact same problem. And in fact, they have it much more frequently, because in our particular society, they often have much weaker communities.

I would never force my wife to have no one but me who can help her. So my needing to split my time -- whether it was between two spouses, or a spouse and a child -- would not compromise her ability to get the attention she needs. It would suck for me to not have ulimited time to spend, but that is a risk whether I'm monogamous or polyamorous, and if anything, in this culture, the risk is greater being a monogamist.

No it isn't. There's no "cutting off". There's just a unique bond.

You don't want it? Fine. But you don't have to be so arrogant toward those who do. It's completely realistic, people mate for life as a matter of routine. It simply may not be your cup of tea.

Like I said, I'm not arguing against monogamy. I'm arguing against the way we tend to do it in the mainstream, which dictates exactly what I just said. In fact, the lack of resources for child rearing is a near-ubiquitous problem in our culture of neglecting outside relationships after coupling. It's the biggest reason for financial difficulty and emotional burn-out.

That is completely fixable, even staying within a monogamous framework. And frankly, I'm not even against that personally. As I said up-thread, I can take or leave multiple relationships. What I can't take or leave is our toxic mainstream relationship culture, and that's ultimately why I moved into the poly pool.

I'm not "arrogant" for rejecting your assertion that my relationships are meaningless, because I'm not living the way you want. Excuse me if I don't take my lashings quietly for you.

There's nothing short-sighted there. I don't think i understand what you're trying to say.

I feel like you may be saying that you'll inevitably be disappointed with your partner, so it's nice to have others to lean on. I prefer communicating with my one partner to satisfy the disappointment to determine whether compromise or acceptance is suitable. Problems need to be addressed, rather than avoided.

That is not even remotely what I said. Unlike the mainstream, I am not disappointed by humans not achieving the literally impossible, as in the example I just gave with wife/child.

Rather, I think it's cruel to be mad at them for not achieving the impossible, and I would much rather remove that stress from them than blame them for not being able to do it.

So you have nothing but an anecdote that you cannot articulate.

Intimate friendship is ... friendship. Without attraction, there is no romance. Without desire, there is no attraction.

Now you seem to be claiming that you can be attracted to someone emotionally but not physically. To the extent that that's true, it's irrelevant. If there's nothing unique or exclusive to the connection, then it is disposable.

Gee, I'm sure all the asexual people in the world will be glad to hear you think their partnerships are meaningless just because they don't ****.

This is what I mean about the way monogaists are obsessed with sex, and yet accuse everyone else of being the ones who are obsessed.

Not owning someone's ability to connect to others makes them disposable. Wow, how pleasant.

? What mutually assured destruction?

Nobody is destroyed, the relationship can simply be abandoned. If you're happy being perpetually single, in effect, that's fine. Other people want to have a dependable, stable relationship. There's no reason for that to threaten you.

Your ongoing assumption that poly relationships are fake relationships because you have less power over them has nothing to do with the reality of emotional attachment.

It doesn't, it's just that it's not commitment if there's no obligation or constraint.

It's not commitment unless you can "constrain" them? I'm sorry, that grosses me out, and that is the real reason I left this pool.
 
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Ergh. Yuck. Not to me they're not, so speak for yourself.

You deny that relationships are agreements? At some point when I was seeing someone and wondering if we should take it to the next level, I essentially ask her to agree to be my girlfriend. I think women appreciate certainty too. Knowing where you stand with someone is a reassuring feeling.





So your argument is that because your ownership doesnt extend to literally everything, that means it doesn't count? Hm, so if a slave can do their own hair, does that mean they're not a slave?

(Yes, I know it's an extreme example -- the point stands. Also keep in mind we are not talking about the concept of monogamy itself, we are talking about the social modality where it is not honesty that matters, but simply bodily possession that matters, as I have already demonstrated.)

Slaves had no freedom. They wore the clothes their masters gave them and were whipped for disobedience. Women in today's world can become CEO's and run ****. I may now accuse you of being inordinately focused on sex. Since women can do so many things with their bodies while concurrently seeing someone exclusively: get tattoos, piercings, eat what they want, exercise if they want, do yoga, do acupuncture, whatever they want, why are you hung up on boundaries a boyfriend would set around intimacy?


So what was your point, then? Your claim that we don't lose anything because we all have a dozen other people we're ****ing (which is completely wrong anyway, and also incredibly degrading towards people's feelings in their relationships) doesn't work, so if the coffee thing doesn't either, what's your point?

It does work. We are approaching the part of the argument where we both just shut down and triple down on our original opinions. My assertion works. And I've already explained it. Basically, here's the follow up. I believe since poly people spread their needs out in so many different people, they are basically shielding themselves from heartache. They don't want to lose. They basically want to be the house at the Casino. I don't think they have the gumption to go all in with someone. But, hey, it's a free country and I support people trying out non-traditional lifestyles, especially if they are functionally better and get better results. But, it's not for me. I still subscribe to the idea that one person is enough.

Say, how do you feel about an older man, deciding his needs aren't being met any more by his wife and just start dating a younger, better version of his wife, because she can provide for his needs, where his wife can't? For someone arguing for feminine liberty, you sure are aiding the sleazeball side of the argument.





There's so damn much of it that it's unwieldy to try to dump it on you in mass, so I'm just gonna give you a place to start.


https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology


Don't use this sort of garbage if you expect to be taken seriously.

You are the only person I've heard bash taking clues from how humans were, to explain how we are. but, I'll take a gander at the link.
 

I really don't see much of a point in continuing to respond to you to the degree of detail I have been when you're just resorting straight to the logical fallacy I predicted you would and asked you not to, are somehow conflating polyamory with hebephiliac predators (more than a little similar to how anti-gay people conflate homosexuality with pedophilia), and no matter how hard I try, you won't talk about ANYTHING but your obsession with sex. It's exhausting trying to keep you on topic, honestly.

Anyway, do take a gander, and maybe at least that particular load can be moved off your repertoire in favor of stuff that doesn't exist solely for the purpose of degrading women and POC.
 
I really don't see much of a point in continuing to respond to you to the degree of detail I have been when you're just resorting straight to the logical fallacy I predicted you would and asked you not to, are somehow conflating polyamory with hebephiliac predators (more than a little similar to how anti-gay people conflate homosexuality with pedophilia), and no matter how hard I try, you won't talk about ANYTHING but your obsession with sex. It's exhausting trying to keep you on topic, honestly.

Anywat, do take a gander, and maybe at least that particular load can be moved off your repertoire in favor of stuff that doesn't exist solely for the purpose of degrading women and POC.

Sounds good Smoke, have a Happy New Year.
 
The problem ain't the cheating, it's that the women fall in love and want to leave, the men always come home.

It's just a comment on a forum, take a chill pill.
 
Or, do both sexes cheat for the same reason? Adventure? Excitement?

I have the idea that women cheat because they aren't having good enough sex. Whereas men cheat just to have another drink from the loving cup.

I couldn't tell you I don't think there's one overall reason why people act in any way.

Some women might cheat because they want a little excitement so I might do it because they want to hurt to their significant other they might do it too because they don't deserve you there marriage is a loving committed relationship some of them may do it because the Temptation is too great some of them I do it's because they want the love and affection or appreciation Others May do it because they want to ****.

I imagine it's probably a mixture of those reasons for men as well.
 
Or, do both sexes cheat for the same reason? Adventure? Excitement?

I have the idea that women cheat because they aren't having good enough sex. Whereas men cheat just to have another drink from the loving cup.

Very likely a decent generalization.

And for women, I'd add they want to feel appreciated, special. (Because the men get bored with the same menu as also implied here and dont manage to hide it.)
 
It's exactly relevant. You just don't want to deal with it because it shows the glaring flaw in your argument. The fact is, monogamists have the exact same problem. And in fact, they have it much more frequently, because in our particular society, they often have much weaker communities.

I would never force my wife to have no one but me who can help her. So my needing to split my time -- whether it was between two spouses, or a spouse and a child -- would not compromise her ability to get the attention she needs. It would suck for me to not have ulimited time to spend, but that is a risk whether I'm monogamous or polyamorous, and if anything, in this culture, the risk is greater being a monogamist.

Your example simply wasn't relevant to the argument i was making. It didn't counter the gist of my claim. My claim was that there are limitations on how resources can be distributed in relationships. Having more competing interests complicates the distributions of those resources. It can be sexual affection, emotional support, financial support; hell, it can be a decision on how to decorate a home or how to raise a child.

With two partners of equal strength, it is already very difficult to settle every dispute. Additional relationships mean more complexity which means more disputes.

It's not the end of the world, but i view these types of conflicts as chaotic and very expensive for me to manage.

Like I said, I'm not arguing against monogamy. I'm arguing against the way we tend to do it in the mainstream, which dictates exactly what I just said. In fact, the lack of resources for child rearing is a near-ubiquitous problem in our culture of neglecting outside relationships after coupling. It's the biggest reason for financial difficulty and emotional burn-out.

That is completely fixable, even staying within a monogamous framework. And frankly, I'm not even against that personally. As I said up-thread, I can take or leave multiple relationships. What I can't take or leave is our toxic mainstream relationship culture, and that's ultimately why I moved into the poly pool.

I'm not "arrogant" for rejecting your assertion that my relationships are meaningless, because I'm not living the way you want. Excuse me if I don't take my lashings quietly for you.

Correct, there is no arrogance in simply rejecting my assertion, but it was my perspective that the manner in which it was rejected that i found arrogant. I appreciate that this post of yours does not share that criticism.

It is true that you can have more shared emotional and financial resources in a poly relationship.

That is not even remotely what I said. Unlike the mainstream, I am not disappointed by humans not achieving the literally impossible, as in the example I just gave with wife/child.

Rather, I think it's cruel to be mad at them for not achieving the impossible, and I would much rather remove that stress from them than blame them for not being able to do it.

I don't consider it impossible to be satisfied with a single partner. Rather, i consider it impossible to be satisfied with a split share of affection from someone i love.

Gee, I'm sure all the asexual people in the world will be glad to hear you think their partnerships are meaningless just because they don't ****.

This is what I mean about the way monogaists are obsessed with sex, and yet accuse everyone else of being the ones who are obsessed.

Not owning someone's ability to connect to others makes them disposable. Wow, how pleasant.

I didn't mention ****ing in that portion. What i was saying is that if there's nothing unique to a relationship, it becomes less valuable. It doesn't have to be ****ing, it can be sleeping in bed at night.

Your ongoing assumption that poly relationships are fake relationships because you have less power over them has nothing to do with the reality of emotional attachment.

I didn't say they are fake. Adding signals from other actors into a relationship might add more financial or emotional resources, but it also decreases stability and introduces complexity.

It's not commitment unless you can "constrain" them? I'm sorry, that grosses me out, and that is the real reason I left this pool.

No, i don't constrain my partner, we both choose to constrain ourselves. It's consensual self-restraint.

The definition of commitment is an obligation that restricts freedom of action. With no restriction comes no commitment.

Surely, with 50% divorce rates, monogamy clearly doesn't always work out. But i'm skeptical that polyamory is any better if success is defined by staying bonded until death.
 
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