Why are LGBT people angered by Kevin Spacey's coming out statement?[W:159]

Absentglare said:

I very much agree with you on this issue. The fact that Spacey did not immediately call his accuser a liar would seem to be the more honest response. He also admitted he was gay, which lent even more credibility to the accusations.

We should respond to his honesty reasonably, without Weinstein/etc. baggage.

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Was it truly honesty on his part.....or "damage control?"

Look at the recent allegations about him, as recent as 2015.

TheGoverness said:

I've read all of your posts that you've made up until now. You are all over the place, and you have not made a concise point/argument.

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So, just ignore me. No need to waste your time....

tosca1 said:

That's what I was told by gay friends. They don't think of it as pedophilia.

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So it's Ephebophilia, I guess. Regardless, it's the fact that he made advances on a minor that is the main issue here.

tosca1 said:

Was it truly honesty on his part.....or "damage control?"

Look at the recent allegations about him, as recent as 2015.

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If he simply wanted to do "damage control", i expect he would have made a public appearance, put his considerable acting skills to work, and put on a show where he denied the allegations.

So i think his honesty rules out the possibility that this is just about "damage control", as it seems he intended to take responsibility for his alleged behavior as well.

Bodhisattva said:

What am I missing? This isn't pedophilia. That deals with pre.pubescent children.

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What you are missing is the current social dynamic in the USA.

Over the last 35 years following the McMartin Pre-school case (which found no actual child abuse), stranger/danger, new-wave feminism college (and other) rape culture allegations, and a number of other issues regarding sexual misconduct have acted to create a society afraid of sex and anything to do with alleged misconduct.

What was once acceptable, is now taboo. Regret = Rape. Childhood should last as long as possible...up to age 21 if some people could turn back the clock and protect young adults from their own actions for a longer period of time.

As I see it, under this developing culture everyone is afraid everyone else (well mostly anyone else male) is a possible sex offender, and should be treated with extreme caution.

It is one reason why we keep hearing of the growing "Men Going Their Own Way" MGTOW movement, avoiding marriage or long-term relationships; at least without having pre-nups and recording a woman's full consent before engaging in any form of relationship contact.

Not hard to see if you lived here how this affects all views on sex and sexuality.

Absentglare said:

If he simply wanted to do "damage control", i expect he would have made a public appearance, put his considerable acting skills to work, and put on a show where he denied the allegations.

So i think his honesty rules out the possibility that this is just about "damage control", as it seems he intended to take responsibility for his alleged behavior as well.

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Maybe he's honest in saying he's horrified about that Rapp incident (since it involved a minor), and I think Rapp did say Spacey was inebriated at the time. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt.

But coming out as gay before any other allegations came out - it's most likely trying to do damage control.
Coming out - might as well come from him. He knew he'd done some male gropings.

Captain Adverse said:

Probably because being gay does not equate to being a pedophile.

Well, technically you are correct, since pedophilia (at least as defined) is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#cite_note-DSM_5-1

So he is not technically a pedophile, and it is also true that many people are naturally attracted to people who are in the age range of 14 to 17, the natural period in human development when members of our species are physically "adult" and capable of successful breeding. However, social mores have changed over the last 120 years and this is no longer socially acceptable...in most Western Cultures.

Thus, he is perceived as a pedophile, and his acts reflect negatively on the rest of LGBT society...at least in the USA.

I will point out one important difference between Mr. Spacey and most other public figures accused of sexual misconduct.

He did not deny it. :no:

He states he may have done it, but he does not remember because he is alcoholic and drinks.

In a way this is a mea culpa; unfortunately for him this is no longer a social atmosphere where such honesty is considered a positive.

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Well, "I don't remember because I was drunk" isn't exactly a mea culpa. It's true some alcoholics have black-outs and remember nothing of what they did, but that's only true some of the time, and not all alcoholics have black-outs. And instead of admitting the error, he's blaming the acts on being drunk, and effectively arguing that they only time he 'preyed' on men was when he was in a black-out drunk, which seems both unlikely and awfully convenient. So it's a half mea culpa. I don't think his excuses would wash in a 12 step meeting myself.

JasperL said:

Well, "I don't remember because I was drunk" isn't exactly a mea culpa. It's true some alcoholics have black-outs and remember nothing of what they did, but that's only true some of the time, and not all alcoholics have black-outs. And instead of admitting the error, he's blaming the acts on being drunk, and effectively arguing that they only time he 'preyed' on men was when he was in a black-out drunk, which seems both unlikely and awfully convenient. So it's a half mea culpa. I don't think his excuses would wash in a 12 step meeting myself.

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Him blaming it on alcohol - that's a good point.

tosca1 said:

Maybe he's honest in saying he's horrified about that Rapp incident (since it involved a minor), and I think Rapp did say Spacey was inebriated at the time. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt.

But coming out as gay before any other allegations came out - it's most likely trying to do damage control.
Coming out - might as well come from him. He knew he'd done some male gropings.

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I don't see how coming out functions as damage control for allegations of sexual assault.

It sounds too much like pleading to a lessor crime.

TheGoverness said:

Uhhhhh, what? :shock:

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I'm straight, but I recall being that age, and I think they're correct.

I think it's a guy thing, as my impression is that ladies don't generally experience the urge for sex that can become all-consuming for young men.

JasperL said:

Well, "I don't remember because I was drunk" isn't exactly a mea culpa. It's true some alcoholics have black-outs and remember nothing of what they did, but that's only true some of the time, and not all alcoholics have black-outs. And instead of admitting the error, he's blaming the acts on being drunk, and effectively arguing that they only time he 'preyed' on men was when he was in a black-out drunk, which seems both unlikely and awfully convenient. So it's a half mea culpa. I don't think his excuses would wash in a 12 step meeting myself.

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He is not claiming that he was blacked out, he is claiming that he would never have done such a thing unless he was drunk...and you know back then when people did things wrong sexually drunk most of the time we did not hold them guilty of the act, we said "That was not him, that was the booze".

It was a different time.

tosca1 said:

What's CT?

Why shouldn't it be here? This issue involves sex and sexuality.

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The Conspiracy Theory subforum.

This is the biggest load of homophobic crap I've ever heard.

WillyPete said:

I'm straight, but I recall being that age, and I think they're correct.

I think it's a guy thing, as my impression is that ladies don't generally experience the urge for sex that can become all-consuming for young men.

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I didn't know anyone in high school who was having sex at 14, straight or gay.

Also, you're wrong. Women can and do have mighty sex drives. We just tend to be less pushy about it, and also more gunshy given that a lot of us started experiencing predatory behavior when we were still in middle school.

Hawkeye10 said:

He is not claiming that he was blacked out, he is claiming that he would never have done such a thing unless he was drunk...and you know back then when people did things wrong sexually drunk most of the time we did not hold them guilty of the act, we said "That was not him, that was the booze".

It was a different time.

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As a general rule, that old standard was ethically abhorrent, and I doubt if you were assaulted by a 320 pound man and anally raped that you'd actually care whether or not the guy was drunk or not. The law shouldn't care, and doesn't with other crimes, such as robbery, assault, murder.

And in this case if the only allegation was one from decades ago, which wasn't rape, then OK. We are fallible humans and make mistakes. But if we believe the other allegations, being drunk is not an excuse because there is/was a pattern of behavior.

JasperL said:

As a general rule, that old standard was ethically abhorrent, and I doubt if you were assaulted by a 320 pound man and anally raped that you'd actually care whether or not the guy was drunk or not. The law shouldn't care, and doesn't with other crimes, such as robbery, assault, murder.

And in this case if the only allegation was one from decades ago, which wasn't rape, then OK. We are fallible humans and make mistakes. But if we believe the other allegations, being drunk is not an excuse because there is/was a pattern of behavior.

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Ok, But I can understand why Spacey went there, we are to a large degree a product of our youth, we get ourselves set and then we dont always track with the changes in standards that come after, this is human nature. I made the same argument with Paula Deen, that we should try to understand the world she came from, and that changing from that is hard, and besides she will be dead soon enough, do we really need to freak out that she is not completely tracking with the new standards?

I say no..

I also say that Spacey is said to have $75 million, he is a Whale so far as lawyers are concerned, so I tend to discount everything said against him given that he has no record of being guilty of such accusations that are now being made against him. Now that the statues of limitations are gone wealthy people are going to be constantly held up on very stale accusations of sexual assault, because there is pretty much no way to defend oneself against the charge....if juries want to believe the victim story then they will, and that is all it take to be found guilty in our crap justice system.

I also say Pence is right, it is a good idea to always have a witness, as this will discourage bad behavior.

Hawkeye10 said:

Ok, But I can understand why Spacey went there, we are to a large degree a product of our youth, we get ourselves set and then we dont always track with the changes in standards that come after, this is human nature. I made the same argument with Paula Deen, that we should try to understand the world she came from, and that changing from that is hard, and besides she will be dead soon enough, do we really need to freak out that she is not completely tracking with the new standards?

I say no..

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I guess I'd just say it depends. I could excuse racism from my grandmother as she was dying in the early 70s even though I was raised completely differently by her son, but my uncle's racism for his entire life before he died in 2015 was just him being a hateful bigot/racist, and I wanted and had nothing to do with him. With Paula Deen, I was mostly sympathetic, really. What we can reasonably expect from others is a good faith effort, and failing in that like she did isn't worthy of a career death sentence IMO. There are obviously exceptions, but I've failed pretty miserably at times in my own life and I can't in good faith hold others to a standard I wouldn't want to be judged on myself.

I also say that Spacey is said to have $75 million, he is a Whale so far as lawyers are concerned, so I tend to discount everything said against him given that he has no record of being guilty of such accusations that are now being made against him. Now that the statues of limitations are gone wealthy people are going to be constantly held up on very stale accusations of sexual assault, because there is pretty much no way to defend oneself against the charge....if juries want to believe the victim story then they will, and that is all it take to be found guilty in our crap justice system.

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We agree in part here too. I think a lot of it depends on how recent and how bad the conduct. I'm happy to see Weinstein destroyed because it seems clear based on the testimony of lots of women he was just a sexual predator who believed power made him untouchable, and it worked for decades. No sympathy.

But I really cringe when I see stories like the one in the NPR thread involving decades old accusations. There's a real chance that person for whatever reason decided - you know, this is wrong and I shouldn't do it - and hasn't. Well, hell, what more can we expect of someone? In 12 step programs, one of them it to make amends to those we have harmed - admit the mistake and apologize to them - which is IMO ideal, but I don't know if that's a reasonable expectation.

What do we want, for example, from this attention on sexual harassment in the workplace? If it's to change behavior, that's not served by dredging up 20 year old accusations and jettisoning careers. The lesson is, "Yeah, you changed 20 years ago, but **** you anyway." That's just revenge. If the expectation is an acknowledgment and sincere apology - OK, that's probably reasonable. But in NPR's case, if the man has a spotless record during his period there, great. Reward that IMO. He heard the message, and got it. Treat women with respect at all times! Assuming that's true, of course....

I also say Pence is right, it is a good idea to always have a witness, as this will discourage bad behavior.

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I worked for a Senator that you'd know and he had a similar policy, and I understand it. I was a tax professional in his firm, and got tasked to be chauffeur for him for two days because the only other option was a female secretary, and he wouldn't be seen alone like that with a female.

In some cases, that's a boneheaded policy, but not always. Just for example, if he's unable to meet with a professional (lawyer, lobbyist, staffer) alone if she's female, but freely does so with male colleagues, that standard across the government makes women second class because they can't do their job as effectively as their male counterparts. It's also a sign of disrespect to those women who he cannot trust not to make up allegations against him. So within bounds, I don't have a problem with Pence's policy. The Senator, for example, had female lawyers on staff and met with them routinely on business matters, and his female assistant, right hand woman, secretary, gatekeeper traveled with him routinely.

Absentglare said:

I don't see how coming out functions as damage control for allegations of sexual assault.

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That he'd rather the admission came from his own lips that he's gay, instead of it suddenly exploding in the news?
Maybe, he thinks that sexual harassment done by a gay to another man, isn't as serious as victimizing women?
Mind you, I've always thought he was gay - maybe I read it somewhere but I can't recall.

Hawkeye10 said:

I also say that Spacey is said to have $75 million, he is a Whale so far as lawyers are concerned, so I tend to discount everything said against him given that he has no record of being guilty of such accusations that are now being made against him. Now that the statues of limitations are gone wealthy people are going to be constantly held up on very stale accusations of sexual assault, because there is pretty much no way to defend oneself against the charge....if juries want to believe the victim story then they will, and that is all it take to be found guilty in our crap justice system.

I also say Pence is right, it is a good idea to always have a witness, as this will discourage bad behavior.

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Money is a powerful motive.

Like, even with Weinstein - how many accusers are simply getting on the bandwagon, hoping for a windfall?

tosca1 said:

Money is a powerful motive.

Like, even with Weinstein - how many accusers are simply getting on the bandwagon, hoping for a windfall?

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Or to be popular.....

This is Peak Victim Culture after all....

SmokeAndMirrors said:

I didn't know anyone in high school who was having sex at 14, straight or gay.

Also, you're wrong. Women can and do have mighty sex drives. We just tend to be less pushy about it, and also more gunshy given that a lot of us started experiencing predatory behavior when we were still in middle school.

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I don't mean they were having sex necessarily, I'm saying they are frequently have out of their minds with the urge which would make them potentially more susceptible to seduction.

I wouldn't pretend to have direct experience, but my impression is that the female sex drive in most cases pales in comparison to the male sex drive.

It strikes me as one of those unbridgeable gaps between men and women, impossible to communicate properly.

tosca1 said:

I'm simply trying to put myself in the shoes of Spacey, why he'd come out the way he did. I think the LGBT are being too sensitive about this.

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I disagree. Many people think that all homosexuals are pedophiles. This has traditionally been used to justify criminalizing homosexual activity, even between consenting adults. The LGBT comminity is very sensitive about this, for good reason.

WillyPete said:

I don't mean they were having sex necessarily, I'm saying they are frequently have out of their minds with the urge which would make them potentially more susceptible to seduction.

I wouldn't pretend to have direct experience, but my impression is that the female sex drive in most cases pales in comparison to the male sex drive.

It strikes me as one of those unbridgeable gaps between men and women, impossible to communicate properly.

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Since the female sex drive has been culturally repressed for a very long time, it's difficult to know how strong it really is.

WillyPete said:

I don't mean they were having sex necessarily, I'm saying they are frequently have out of their minds with the urge which would make them potentially more susceptible to seduction.

I wouldn't pretend to have direct experience, but my impression is that the female sex drive in most cases pales in comparison to the male sex drive.

It strikes me as one of those unbridgeable gaps between men and women, impossible to communicate properly.

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Nope. This is just an assumption men make from a combination of the fact that we don't as frequently lash out at people because of it (because we have an empathetic understanding of how hurtful that is, since so many of us have experienced it), and our societal meme that women are fundamentally non-sexual until made that way by a man.

As a teen, I once had a spontaneous orgasm from looking at a guy in my class I thought was hot.

My experience was not isolated. Oh, to be a fly on the wall at a teenager girl's sleepover...

And I must say that as an adult, a male partner being less interested in sex than the woman has been a frequent complaint I have both heard and experienced. So much so that I don't think there's any real difference between how often each sex feels this way.

William Rea said:

Doesn't matter, fundies hate gays and will find any excuse to smear or associate them with anything that might go against the community.

Basically, that is what is going on here.

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This has NOTHING to do with "Fundies" and everything to do with image management by the dimmer end of the LGBT spectrum.