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Sickness or Society?

Is it really that much of an inconvenience to refer to a trans person by the pronouns that they identify with? It's not to me. And I don't think you can really compare a doctor's title to gendered pronouns.

I just don't want to come off as an asshole. If someone wants me to refer to them as a he or a she, then I'll do that.

I get that. Though unlike you I prefer people think I am an asshole. If somebody lets me know politely what they wish, most times I will accede to their request, if the request was polite. That said I cannot be expected to know or remember everyone's gender pronoun all the time and so they are going to have to make allowances for me like I would for them, presuming they are being polite. If they wish to be obnoxious about it, that's just a signal for me to amuse myself at their expense.

And yes gender pronouns anymore are very much like a doctors title, its difficult to tell unless they let you know upfront. And like doctors some are amiable, and others are just obnoxious pricks.
 
Thought it'd be nice to stir the metaphorical pot for a bit, so here's an article on what is being referred to now as Gender Dysphoria.

As a Libertarian I don't really have much of an opinion on this issue, I think that people should be able to do more or less what they want with themselves, withing reason of course, assuming they aren't hurting others.

Nevertheless, I am interested in hearing other people's opinions on this particular topic.

​Thoughts?

Given some of the neurological knowledge we now have, it just isn't deniable that GID is a real thing anymore, and that left untreated, it is potentially deadly.

People can think whatever they want about that, but it's a fact, and another fact is that we have only been able to discover one successful method of treatment thus far.

There is no style of therapy than can treat GID. There is no psychiatric medication that can treat GID. We have tried them all, and none of them work.

What works is HRT and SRS.
 
I think transgenderism is clearly a mental disorder. It's ridiculous to me that some people claim it isn't. I feel for people who suffer from it and hope that some day there are better treatment options available.
 
It's mental illness, and these people need psychological help, not to be enabled.

And, once again, your ignorance on this issue is exposed. It has repeatedly been explained to you how what you say above is invalid. Only your own bias and bigotry prevents you from seeing it.
 

See, that study, which I have seen many times, does not prove what you think it proves. It does not show that transsexuality, in and of itself is more likely to CAUSE suicidal behavior. It shows a correlation, but no causation. Like I always tell you phattonez... you have no clue as to how to read or understand research. Oh and as far as just how badly you interpret research because of that bias and bigotry of yours, here is an explanation of what the research means, by Celia Dhejne, THE HEAD RESEARCHER OF THE STUDY HERSELF. And yes, I have posted this before, to destroy people like you:

Anti-trans folks LOVE to quote this study as am attack on transsexuals both in how SRS does not improve the lives of transsexuals and in order to demonstrate that transsexuality in and of itself is a problem. What her study DOES show is none of that, as it tends to focus both on the treatment of GDD and how transsexuals are treated both in general and medically.What's interesting is that the lead person who conducted this study was actually interviewed about how her study was used. Her name is Cecilia Dhejne and perhaps we should listen to what SHE has to say in an interview conducted by Christian Williams. Here are some important excerpts:

Williams: Before I contacted you for this interview, were you aware of the way your work was being misrepresented?
Dhejne: Yes! It’s very frustrating! I’ve even seen professors use my work to support ridiculous claims. I’ve often had to respond myself by commenting on articles, speaking with journalists, and talking about this problem at conferences. The Huffington Post wrote an article about the way my research is misrepresented. At the same time, I know of instances where ethical researchers and clinicians have used this study to expand and improve access to trans health care and impact systems of anti-trans oppression.
Of course trans medical and psychological care is efficacious. A 2010 meta-analysis confirmed by studies thereafter show that medical gender confirming interventions reduces gender dysphoria.

An important caveat that was stated in the study that Dhejne agrees with when Williams presented it:

It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexual persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.

Here is Dhejne's explanation of what the above means:

Dhejne: The aim of trans medical interventions is to bring a trans person’s body more inline with their gender identity, resulting in the measurable diminishment of their gender dysphoria. However trans people as a group also experience significant social oppression in the form of bullying, abuse, rape and hate crimes. Medical transition alone won’t resolve the effects of crushing social oppression: social anxiety, depression and posttraumatic stress.
What we’ve found is that treatment models which ignore the effect of cultural oppression and outright hate aren’t enough. We need to understand that our treatment models must be responsive to not only gender dysphoria, but the effects of anti-trans hate as well. That’s what improved care means.

Another comment from her regarding the misuse of her study:

Dhejne: People who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment. If we look at the literature, we find thatseveral recent studies conclude that WPATH Standards of Care compliant treatment decrease gender dysphoria and improves mental health.

And the interviewer states this at the end of the interview:

No, the study does not show that medical transition results in suicide or suicidal ideation. The study explicitly states that such is not the case and those using this study to make that claim are using fallacious logic.

Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal – The TransAdvocate

All this from the study's author. And I placed in bold one of her comments that is most important.
 
It doesn't take long to read. I'll quote all you need to read.

You do understand that correlation does not equal causation, right... oh wait... you don't.
 
Dangerous sexual behaviors lead to higher STD rates in a population. That's a harm.

Corrected for accuracy.

Their suicide attempts are also a harm as we're paying for their healthcare. So no, you can't argue that there's no harm associated with the practice.

So, I suppose reducing the bigotry and the ignorance around transsexuality... since we know that these are major issues as to causes for suicidal behavior amongst them... would be the solution. So, how to you plan on helping out in reducing our healthcare costs by reducing or eliminating your own bigotry and ignorance around transsexuality?
 
I think transgenderism is clearly a mental disorder. It's ridiculous to me that some people claim it isn't. I feel for people who suffer from it and hope that some day there are better treatment options available.

And you'd be completely wrong about that.
 
Unprotected sex leads to a higher STD rate in any population, doesn't matter what kind of sex. The number of suicides are probably the same as any persecuted group. Maybe if people like you would stop doing that?? Veterans have a high suicide rate, should we get rid of them too?

I once read somewhere, that almost all male-to-female transsexuals will contract HIV in their life. In no small part because most prostitute. Their rate of HIV infection supposedly far exceeds that of IV drug addiction and male homosexuality in the United States.

At any rate... post-op transsexuals, military combat vets, and recovering drug addicts all have a higher than average suicide rate.

Say... like super-rich Robin Williams. But gambling addicts have the highest rate of all addicts. They also have the most financially crushing of addictions. You will OD and die if you shot $40,000 worth of heroin in your arm in one night. But you can gamble away $40,000 not only in a single night but in a single "hand" or single bet.

Robin Williams' Death: His Cocaine and Alcohol Addiction | Hollywood Reporter

The comedian, found dead Monday, often talked (and joked) about his battles with cocaine and alcohol

Robin Williams' unexpected death Monday brought to an end the comedian's long battle with cocaine and alcohol addiction.

If in fact Lindsy Lohan is a drug addict, recovered or not, she is at a statistically high (rate, my understanding anyways, what they always taught me in rehab) for suicide relative to the general population that is. Had no idea she was considering converting to Islam. But I can sympathize with her considering modern day Western Christianity which is a bandwagon religion. Islam, like Eastern Christianity, doesn't necessarily regard Caityln Jenner as any more holy than Lindsay Lohan or Robin Williams when he was actively using cocaine and getting drunk. Neither does Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy (Eastern Christianity) which conceptualizes sin as a illness. A spiritual and/or psychological illness. So, the Orthodox use a different kind of vocabulary than the West regarding sin, they speak of the need for the sinner to heal.

There is a difference between treating the symptoms of something and healing a person with an illness. If a 14 year-old girl looks in a mirror, sees her tiny breasts, and thinks she's supposed to have larger breasts or can't be happy unless she gets breasts implants, it might be her getting breast implants will reduce the symptoms of her problem. Likewise, if a 14 year-old boy looks in a mirror and thinks he's supposed to have larger female breasts or can't be happy until he gets breast implants. And let's be clear here, there are plenty of boys and men who decide to get on steroids because they are psychologically depressed when they look in the mirror and see what in their minds look like small muscles. In fact, some massive sized body builders look in the mirror and see "skinny guy."


 
To add context my earlier statement:

Neither does Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy (Eastern Christianity) which conceptualizes sin as a illness. A spiritual and/or psychological illness. So, the Orthodox uses a different kind of vocabulary than the West regarding sin, they speak of the need for the sinner to heal.

There is a difference between treating the symptoms of something and healing a person with an illness. If a 14 year-old girl looks in a mirror, sees her tiny breasts, and thinks she's supposed to have larger breasts or can't be happy unless she gets breasts implants, it might be her getting breast implants will reduce the symptoms of her problem. Likewise, if a 14 year-old boy looks in a mirror and thinks he's supposed to have larger female breasts or can't be happy until he gets breast implants.







Because I'm such a huge sinner I used to go on a transsexual website (fortunately I no longer do and have not for years). HungAngels it was called. Because I find a lot of nice looking pre-op transsexuals sexually alluring. Probably in no small part to a forbidden fruit thing. A contradiction in one body thing.

Anyways, I rarely posted on there but it was a great learning experience. Prior to going on there I just assumed the vast majority of male-to-female transsexuals were /are"normal" (whatever that is, but we have an idea in our minds). But what I found was the complete opposite. From reading their posts I found about 1% of them were what most modern day Americans would regard as psychologically "normal." The vast majority of them to my great surprise were not.

I'll give you an example. The vast majority of modern day Americans think a "normal" psychological personality trait of women is that the individual woman, in her personality that is, internalizes the conception of life and her place in it that it goes too far to ask a man, a potential boyfriend or husband, to totally accept her means of earning income through prostitution.

But the vast majority of male-to-female (I'm purposely not speaking of female-to-male transsexuals in this) "Tgirls" think, as staunchly as a fundamentalist Christian thinks something, that any and all potential boyfriends and husbands or present boyfriends or husbands have to accept their prostitution with other men. This was actually a big and often recurring topic on that website. And every time the transsexuals defended their position against the men saying that asks too much.

There were other things too that I did not expect to find. That being the "Tgirls" on hormones, looking like women, and some very attractive looking, too, were often very depressed. The reason for their depression is what I did not expect to find. Or one reason anyways. And that is their physical transition brought them tons of male attention, sexual attention, but for the vast majority it never brought more than that from men. Most men did not want to marry them (I assume because many young men want children, biological children made up of their own genes and that of the mother's genes). In fact, a big complaint they had was that most men are happy to screw them, but only in secret and do not want to openly date them in public. So, their physical transition never brought them more than becoming a sexual fetish object for men. It dd not bring most of them the healing power of love.

A small percentage did express they found a deep love with a man though. So, I have to admit that to be fair.

There were other things too. Like I found some of the "Tgirls" to act like, respond in posts like, a caricature of a female. Like very ditsy females. And just exaggerated "feminine" types of responses. But again, to be fair, in this respects I only found a minority of the "Tgirls" doing that.

I also found something I did not expect about most men that go after "Tgirls." Most to my surprise, apparently in part like Tgirls because they want to be sodomized by them. This was one of the Tgirls big gripes. I found few men on that discussion board to deny it too. I also found a guy on their that posted frequently all his hatred of Tgirls. I mean this dude (he was black) hated them like Klanmen hate black people. And bragged about banging them only for sex. Yet, he apparently had little problem getting "Tgirls" into bed (for $$$ I assume) even though most of them hated him back too. It was a very strange thing.

Anyways, psychologist claim alcoholics and addicts have certain averaged out negative personality traits. There is some truth to that I think. But I'm led to believe male-to-female transsexuals do too. As "unPC" as that is.
 
To add context my earlier statement:





Because I'm such a huge sinner I used to go on a transsexual website (fortunately I no longer do and have not for years). HungAngels it was called. Because I find a lot of nice looking pre-op transsexuals sexually alluring. Probably in no small part to a forbidden fruit thing. A contradiction in one body thing.

Anyways, I rarely posted on there but it was a great learning experience. Prior to going on there I just assumed the vast majority of male-to-female transsexuals were /are"normal" (whatever that is, but we have an idea in our minds). But what I found was the complete opposite. From reading their posts I found about 1% of them were what most modern day Americans would regard as psychologically "normal." The vast majority of them to my great surprise were not.

I'll give you an example. The vast majority of modern day Americans think a "normal" psychological personality trait of women is that the individual woman, in her personality that is, internalizes the conception of life and her place in it that it goes too far to ask a man, a potential boyfriend or husband, to totally accept her means of earning income through prostitution.

But the vast majority of male-to-female (I'm purposely not speaking of female-to-male transsexuals in this) "Tgirls" think, as staunchly as a fundamentalist Christian thinks something, that any and all potential boyfriends and husbands or present boyfriends or husbands have to accept their prostitution with other men. This was actually a big and often recurring topic on that website. And every time the transsexuals defended their position against the men saying that asks too much.

There were other things too that I did not expect to find. That being the "Tgirls" on hormones, looking like women, and some very attractive looking, too, were often very depressed. The reason for their depression is what I did not expect to find. Or one reason anyways. And that is their physical transition brought them tons of male attention, sexual attention, but for the vast majority it never brought more than that from men. Most men did not want to marry them (I assume because many young men want children, biological children made up of their own genes and that of the mother's genes). In fact, a big complaint they had was that most men are happy to screw them, but only in secret and do not want to openly date them in public. So, their physical transition never brought them more than becoming a sexual fetish object for men. It dd not bring most of them the healing power of love.

A small percentage did express they found a deep love with a man though. So, I have to admit that to be fair.

There were other things too. Like I found some of the "Tgirls" to act like, respond in posts like, a caricature of a female. Like very ditsy females. And just exaggerated "feminine" types of responses. But again, to be fair, in this respects I only found a minority of the "Tgirls" doing that.

I also found something I did not expect about most men that go after "Tgirls." Most to my surprise, apparently in part like Tgirls because they want to be sodomized by them. This was one of the Tgirls big gripes. I found few men on that discussion board to deny it too. I also found a guy on their that posted frequently all his hatred of Tgirls. I mean this dude (he was black) hated them like Klanmen hate black people. And bragged about banging them only for sex. Yet, he apparently had little problem getting "Tgirls" into bed (for $$$ I assume) even though most of them hated him back too. It was a very strange thing.

Anyways, psychologist claim alcoholics and addicts have certain averaged out negative personality traits. There is some truth to that I think. But I'm led to believe male-to-female transsexuals do too. As "unPC" as that is.

Your perceptions of MTF transsexuals comes from the website you visited. That is not a very good indicator of the "average" MTF transsexual.
 
No evidence huh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria

Gender Dysphoria: What It Is and How It's Treated

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

Yes, it's called gender dysphoria now instead of gender identity disorder, but the root cause and the disorder is the same. The name change was made for political reasons.

Discarding wikipedia, the other two links I read (which by the way was essentially one link, see "sources") and neither show "proof" that you are right. They only note that, understandably, these people will most likely develop other mental health issues because of Dysphoria, NOT that itself is mental illness.
 
Unprotected sex leads to a higher STD rate in any population, doesn't matter what kind of sex. The number of suicides are probably the same as any persecuted group. Maybe if people like you would stop doing that?? Veterans have a high suicide rate, should we get rid of them too?

Unprotected sex does not lead to higher STD's in a population that only practices monogamous sex.

And the number of suicides is far higher than most "persecuted" groups. Far, far higher.

As for veterans, yes, we should probably not engage in so many wars.
 
Okay, it hardly convinces me that it is a mental illness. First problem: "Setting: Sweden, 1973-2003." Hardly relevant to today and to the States. Second, they studied the mortality, morbidity, and criminal rate after surgical sex reassignment of transsexual persons. After I did not see anything about mental illness causing gender dysphoria.

I did find these interesting though:

"Despite the long history of this treatment[reassignment surgery], however, outcome data regarding mortality and psychiatric morbidity are scant."

"Data is inconsistent with respect to psychiatric morbidity post sex reassignment."

"The authors concluded though that the evidence base for sex reassignment “is of very low quality due to the serious methodological limitations of included studies.”"

All in all pretty weak backup to the bold statement of it being a mental illness that needs help.

That high suicide rate has been found in many studies, and if anything it goes higher after sex reassignment surgery.
 
See, that study, which I have seen many times, does not prove what you think it proves. It does not show that transsexuality, in and of itself is more likely to CAUSE suicidal behavior. It shows a correlation, but no causation. Like I always tell you phattonez... you have no clue as to how to read or understand research. Oh and as far as just how badly you interpret research because of that bias and bigotry of yours, here is an explanation of what the research means, by Celia Dhejne, THE HEAD RESEARCHER OF THE STUDY HERSELF. And yes, I have posted this before, to destroy people like you:

Anti-trans folks LOVE to quote this study as am attack on transsexuals both in how SRS does not improve the lives of transsexuals and in order to demonstrate that transsexuality in and of itself is a problem. What her study DOES show is none of that, as it tends to focus both on the treatment of GDD and how transsexuals are treated both in general and medically.What's interesting is that the lead person who conducted this study was actually interviewed about how her study was used. Her name is Cecilia Dhejne and perhaps we should listen to what SHE has to say in an interview conducted by Christian Williams. Here are some important excerpts:



An important caveat that was stated in the study that Dhejne agrees with when Williams presented it:



Here is Dhejne's explanation of what the above means:



Another comment from her regarding the misuse of her study:



And the interviewer states this at the end of the interview:



Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal – The TransAdvocate

All this from the study's author. And I placed in bold one of her comments that is most important.

Who cares about relieving gender dysphoria when so many of them are still trying to kill themselves? Let's focus on that first.
 
Corrected for accuracy.



So, I suppose reducing the bigotry and the ignorance around transsexuality... since we know that these are major issues as to causes for suicidal behavior amongst them... would be the solution. So, how to you plan on helping out in reducing our healthcare costs by reducing or eliminating your own bigotry and ignorance around transsexuality?

That's a bold claim. Where's your proof that it's bigotry which causes the massive suicide attempt rates?
 
Is it really that much of an inconvenience to refer to a trans person by the pronouns that they identify with? It's not to me. And I don't think you can really compare a doctor's title to gendered pronouns.

I just don't want to come off as an asshole. If someone wants me to refer to them as a he or a she, then I'll do that.

It is an inconvenience if you get offended when someone is wrong. If you look like a guy? I will call you sir. Woman? Ma'am. If I'm wrong in my assumption...who the hell cares? If you correct me...I will change the word I use. No big deaL. But if you get mad? I'm going to be a dick and dig in my heels. People take short cuts. No need to be offended by that.

If I see a woman and I call her Miss Smith and she says "dr smith" I will change my wording. If she gets mad that I didn't bother to call her doctor when I didn't know she was a doctor? I'm sure as **** not calling her doctor.
 
That's a bold claim. Where's your proof that it's bigotry which causes the massive suicide attempt rates?

Logical conclusion. Most societies that accept the behavior without negative stereotypes and action don't tend to have the suicide issue. It has been studied very broadly in anthropology. Heck. It makes sense. If people accept you as trans....why would you kill yourself over the issue?
 
It is an inconvenience if you get offended when someone is wrong. If you look like a guy? I will call you sir. Woman? Ma'am. If I'm wrong in my assumption...who the hell cares? If you correct me...I will change the word I use. No big deaL. But if you get mad? I'm going to be a dick and dig in my heels. People take short cuts. No need to be offended by that.

If I see a woman and I call her Miss Smith and she says "dr smith" I will change my wording. If she gets mad that I didn't bother to call her doctor when I didn't know she was a doctor? I'm sure as **** not calling her doctor.

I agree with what you said.
 
​Thoughts?
Gender Dystopia is very likely a mental disorder but it may be better not to categorized it as such as the treatment methodology is outside the scope of current “technology” and any attempts to “fix” it without understanding of the underlying brain chemistry [and having an ability to modify it] is going to cause far more harm than be helpful. The reason I make the first distinction then is there is amble evidence it causes psychological distress even in an inclusive and caring environment[although advocates will always point to the inevitable stigma]. Many take from the experiences of homosexuality (due to some degree of coordination) however it is not equivalent as where there is nothing inherently self-hating in who we are attracted to there is a very real inherit psychological problem with not feeling “right” in ones natural body.

I would include Sexual Reassignment Surgery as a bad treatment option. It is not a treatment it is a form of body modification. It should never be outlaw with adults but always considered cosmetic. Children need to have special protections from getting hormones and others modification done to their growing systems. They are not able to make clear and ration choices and parents should be limited within reason in their ability to preform body modification on children with a clear distinction between minor and major.

Advocates of recognizing transpeople as the opposite sex creates a mix bag of problems. In terms of sports and other such activities there reality is one must be classified in term of their biological gender not their psychological gender. In terms of pronoun, it should be taught as a matter of manners to refer to people in their preferred gender pronoun and considered offensive when it is not used; however, any and I do mean any law which prescribes manners or protects certain people from nonviolent offensive behaviour is a non-starter! Manners is a between individuals and only becomes a problem when authority tries to enforce it. IF offensive behaviour becomes harassing, it the the behaviour of harassment that should be targeted not the offensive manners themselves.

Toward bathrooms. Discretion and politeness apply. No law should exist either way. If one feels uncomfortable with a particular situation one is free to voice their concerns but ultimately bathroom classifications are a suggestion never a hard and fast rule. Every human needs a bathroom, not all bathroom are comfortable for everyone, not all bathrooms are safe. Use of any bathroom is discretional no matter who you are, observe the suggestion

Toward the scientific argument that biological gender does not mean one brain is gendered toward that particular gender and hence the claims of transperson are not delusional and should be recognized. I think that the distinctions between psychological experience and neurological are far from that clear and that finding a physical “cause” of Gender Dysphoria does not make it any less of a disorder. Again, we may remove such a classification due to the unnecessary stigma caused to suffers but the inherit self-hating nature of the condition does in fact make it a disorder. Treatment thus viewed as building of self-protective coping mechanisms that allow one to live in the world. Biological treatments may one day assist in this department but as of now the best way to treat it is to explain that it is a “negative condition” but one that can be worked with and does not need to be suppressed in all contexts although may have to be in others.

The attitude that transpeople will not make other people feel very uncomfortable and can just be loud and proud all day long and offended people must adapt is as foolish a piece of psychological advise as telling a transperson they may never express themselves to please the perception they will always offend all people expressing themselves; both leading to bad personal psychological issues. Advocating discretion and being okay in their current body well still giving flexibility for them to express their Gender Dystopia is always the best approach.

Unfortunately, many have got on the fad of simply indulging an obvious psychological disorder and choosing to blame stigma for the suicide and other negative outcomes instead of the nature of the condition. I wish we could move forward and stop conflating this with homosexuality and start treating it for the conditions it presents. I have no doubt transpeople as a whole more on board for these types of approaches and find it mighty unfortunate we live in a world where the vocal minority or the cause which groups you in gets to set the narrative.
 
Logical conclusion. Most societies that accept the behavior without negative stereotypes and action don't tend to have the suicide issue. It has been studied very broadly in anthropology. Heck. It makes sense. If people accept you as trans....why would you kill yourself over the issue?

No, I can just as easily claim that it is the underlying denial of reality which motivates their impulse to self-harm.
 
Discarding wikipedia, the other two links I read (which by the way was essentially one link, see "sources") and neither show "proof" that you are right. They only note that, understandably, these people will most likely develop other mental health issues because of Dysphoria, NOT that itself is mental illness.

Dysphoria is a recognized mental health condition as was gender identity disorder before it.
 
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