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The Serena and McEnroe Kerfuffle

calamity

calamity

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At first, I was going to throw this into Sports, but then I decided it probably fits better here because the discussion is bit more political than just regular sport talk.

Summing up: During an NPR interview, McEnroe said Serena is the best women's tennis player in history. The NPR reporter--a female--said, "Why add the qualifier, best woman?" Mac kind of flips--you know Johnny Mac--and basically spouts out that she is nowhere near the best tennis player ever when compared to men, going on further to say, she would not even rank in the top 700.

So, What's the beef? Serena would probably get smoked by any accomplished male tennis player, maybe even some kid playing college tennis on scholarship. It's a no brainier. Have we really reached a point where the obvious can no longer be stated because it's not PC?

Here's someone else's thoughts on this.

But as a matter of public discourse, the premise should be rejected and the answer should have been: “who cares?” The best woman would not likely beat the best male or the 100th male or even the 500th male. The same way Alabama would not beat the worst NFL team...

McEnroe’s sloppy response played out, predictably. An old (white) man was diminishing the career of a younger (black) woman. That Serena was not there to defend herself because she is profoundly pregnant didn’t exactly help the optics either, underscoring gender differences in the most vivid way possible. (I think we can all agree: even the best man in his division would not rank in the top 700 in baby delivery.) Serena’s responding tweets were perfect but didn’t exactly douse the controversy either.

https://www.si.com/tennis/2017/06/28/serena-williams-john-mcenroe-men-women-gender-contest
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Hence, it's a Kerfuffle.
 
One way to find out, I'd watch a tournament of Serena against Da-Men
 
I found the full transcript of McEnroe's exchange.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: We're talking about male players, but there [are] of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

MCENROE: Best female player ever — no question.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Some wouldn't qualify it; some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

MCENROE: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

MCENROE: Well, because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit, she'd be, like, 700 in the world.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: You think so?

MCENROE: Yeah. That doesn't mean I don't think Serena is an incredible player. I do, but the reality of what would happen would be I think something that perhaps it'd be a little higher, perhaps it'd be a little lower. And on a given day, Serena could beat some players. I believe because she's so incredibly strong mentally that she could overcome some situations where players would choke 'cause she's been in it so many times, so many situations at Wimbledon, the US Open, etc. But if she had to just play the circuit — the men's circuit — that would be an entirely different story.
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The 700 number does seem a bit wild and out there but overall I though he was appreciative of Serena's skill.

You can't say Serena is the best in the world because she does not compete against men in tournaments so he is correct that at this time she is the best female tennis player.
 
calamity said:
At first, I was going to throw this into Sports, but then I decided it probably fits better here because the discussion is bit more political than just regular sport talk.

Summing up: During an NPR interview, McEnroe said Serena is the best women's tennis player in history. The NPR reporter--a female--said, "Why add the qualifier, best woman?" Mac kind of flips--you know Johnny Mac--and basically spouts out that she is nowhere near the best tennis player ever when compared to men, going on further to say, she would not even rank in the top 700.

So, What's the beef? Serena would probably get smoked by any accomplished male tennis player, maybe even some kid playing college tennis on scholarship. It's a no brainier. Have we really reached a point where the obvious can no longer be stated because it's not PC?

Here's someone else's thoughts on this.



Hence, it's a Kerfuffle.
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Consider yourself lucky no one knows who you are or where you live.

But Serena is wicked good regardless.
She also is recovering from some physical problems, I believe.
 
Cigar said:
One way to find out, I'd watch a tournament of Serena against Da-Men
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Both sisters got smoked by some nobody back in 98.

During the 1998 Australian Open, sisters Serena and Venus Williams boasted that they could beat any man ranked outside the world's top 200. The challenge was accepted by Karsten Braasch, a German player ranked No 203 (his highest ranking was No 38). Before the matches, Braasch played a round of golf in the morning, drank a couple of beers, smoked a few cigarettes, and then played the Williams sisters for a set each, one after the other. He defeated Serena, 6-1, and Venus, 6-2. Serena said afterwards "I didn't know it would be that hard. I hit shots that would have been winners on the women's tour and he got to them easily."
Men versus Women Tennis
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About what one would expect, IMO.
 
My thoughts? The reporter is making an issue out of something because she wants it to be an issue. In short, she's an idiot.
 
calamity said:
Both sisters got smoked by some nobody back in 98.


About what one would expect, IMO.
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Serena has never been great, imho. She could hit harder than the other women, but her movement on the court always seemed terrible to me. Add that to the fact that it was obvious she cheated by hiding her drug use with ADD meds and she is irrelevant. I do however laugh that she started to loss muscle mass right before she got pregnant. Gosh, I wonder if she stopped taking something. :lamo
 
bubbabgone said:
Consider yourself lucky no one knows who you are or where you live.

But Serena is wicked good regardless.
She also is recovering from some physical problems, I believe.
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Someone said to me once--must have been back in the early 80's--"It's very important not to be important."
 
calamity said:
Both sisters got smoked by some nobody back in 98.


About what one would expect, IMO.
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Anyone can Win on any given day; but you're not called a Nobody after consistently beating "Somebodies"

Their record speaks for itself and requires no translation.

;)
 
Henrin said:
Serena has never been great, imho. She could hit harder than the other women, but her movement on the court always seemed terrible to me. Add that to the fact that it was obvious she cheated by hiding her drug use with ADD meds and she is irrelevant. I do however laugh that she started to loss muscle mass right before she got pregnant. Gosh, I wonder if she stopped taking something. :lamo
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Ladies and Gentlemen; I deliver to you just The Facts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Serena_Williams
 
calamity said:
It's really not even close. Her serve is ranked 4th at 128 mph. Comparable male is 156. The fastest guy serve is 163; women, 131.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_recorded_tennis_serves

Men are also taller with longer arms and faster acceleration. It's not even close.
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Even if she gets whooped it would still be interesting to watch to me.

Trust me, I play against my 6 foot husband in tennis and while it's never even close it doesn't stop me from trying. :2razz:
 
Cigar said:
Anyone can Win on any given day; but you're not called a Nobody after consistently beating "Somebodies"

Their record speaks for itself and requires no translation.

;)
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I'd have to agree that Serena is the best female tennis player in the world. And, what she has been doing well into her 30's is amazing. But, the only way she beats a top-500 male is if she teams up with her sister and they play him together, and somehow get their 20-year old bodies back.
 
calamity said:
I'd have to agree that Serena is the best female tennis player in the world. And, what she has been doing well into her 30's is amazing. But, the only way she beats a top-500 male is if she teams up with her sister and they play him together, and somehow get their 20-year old bodies back.
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Although her body ain't looking bad these days either. I love a great booty though. ;)
 
Cigar said:
Ladies and Gentlemen; I deliver to you just The Facts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Serena_Williams
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You realize that doesn't address anything I said, right? Her movement was terrible on the court and she relied too heavily on the fact she was stronger (this showed when she gained weight in her career or when she lost muscle mass at the end) than her opponents when she played. Her game also had a lot of holes sprinkled throughout that just aren't there with more all around players. A great player is someone that is great at everything in the game and she just isn't, sorry.
 
calamity said:
I'd have to agree that Serena is the best female tennis player in the world. And, what she has been doing well into her 30's is amazing. But, the only way she beats a top-500 male is if she teams up with her sister and they play him together, and somehow get their 20-year old bodies back.
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Most Old Dues can't handle a 20 year old female body ... but let me be the first to happily try and fail ... :mrgreen:
 
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Much ado about not very much.
 
Henrin said:
You realize that doesn't address anything I said, right? Her movement was terrible on the court and she relied too heavily on the fact she was stronger than her opponents when she played. Her game also had a lot of holes sprinkled throughout that just aren't there with more all around players. A great player is someone that is great at everything in the game and she just isn't, sorry.
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Jim Furyk has one but-ugly Golf Swing ... but I can't beat him. :mrgreen:
 
Cigar said:
Jim Furyk has one but-ugly Golf Swing ... but I can't beat him. :mrgreen:
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That has nothing to do with anything either. Not having picture perfect form is an entirely different topic. Some people have trouble learning the right form and thus are taught something else or they learn over time to do it differently. If they can do it well then it makes no difference in the end.
 
Henrin said:
That has nothing to do with anything either. Not having picture perfect form is an entirely different topic. Some people have trouble learning the right form and thus are taught something else or they learn over time to do it differently. If they can do it well then it makes no difference in the end.
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Mike Tyson had a terrible form :mrgreen:

~ Everyone has a plan, until they get hit in the face
 
Cigar said:
Mike Tyson had a terrible form :mrgreen:

~ Everyone has a plan, until they get hit in the face
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That's bull. Mike Tyson's form is the model for every boxer to follow.
 
Cigar said:
Mike Tyson had a terrible form :mrgreen:

~ Everyone has a plan, until they get hit in the face
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If bad form leads to 23 grand slam victories, we should all have such poor form. But, if Serena played Federer of Sampras, she'd probably never even see the ball.
 
In no way was he being disrespectful to her or negative to her in the interview; indeed, reading through, it's clear he's giving her praise. But yes, the qualifier on there absolutely is needed and appropriate. The 700 number was likely low, but seemed more of a flabbergasted grab at something than some kind of honest specific spot. If someone takes that while ignoring the heaps of praise he puts on her throughout then it just suggests they're coming at this from an agenda driven stand point.

The reality is the physical make up of women and men are different, and this impacts their abilities in various sports. This isn't some kind of knock on gender, it's simply a reality of things.

The top 25 fastest men's speeds for the 100 yard dash are all at least .6 seconds faster than the world record time for the females

The top 25 fastest men's speeds for the 400 yard dash are all at least 3.4 seconds faster than the world record time for the females

Katie Ledecky's RIDICULOUS 400m freestyle world record at the Olympics? A full 16.39 seconds slower than the men's world record holder.

The 75kg clean and jerk? The men's world record is 56 kg heavier.

The fastest recorded serve for a female tennis player is 131 mph (Serena is 4th at 128.3 mph). The 30th fastest recorded serve for a male tennis player is 144 mph.

While serve speed is hardly the end all be all, it's one great example of the differences between the men's and women's games, and it's not unreasonable to suggest the power difference found within the serves would be found within all other contact with the ball as well.

Suggesting she'd be a middling player in the lower hunderds? I don't know, not experienced enough with Tennis and the intricacies of technique and how that would translate over and how much of her game is built heavily around that. However, I don't think there's anything wrong at all suggesting that she'd not be able to likely compete at a high level in singles competition against the top of the men's field. And I don't think that's a slight on women, but simply recognizing the reality regarding the physical differences between the two sexes and how that plays into things like athletic competition.
 
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