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Feminism and sexy female careers

ibelsd said:
There are two ways this conversation can go right now. I am going to provide a hint. Try repeating my post using your best Homer Simpson voice.

Now, you either get my meaning and have a sense of humor or you are still befuddled and you are taking me way too seriously. Either way, my general point is that strippers and hookers/esocrts/etc provide a service and do not deserve to be ostracized nor looked down upon. They do a job. The truth is that there are people who are drug addicts. There are people who are alcoholics. Does this profession call to those people because of the way people perceive it or do people with those problems just gravitate towards these types of professions due to some other reason. I don't know. I do say, god bless them for the work they do. They deserve just as much respect for their professions as any other working folk. For the **** they take, they probably deserve even more.
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Next time you want to provide a hint, consider your audience. You're assuming that I watch "The Simpsons." I never have and remember only the "Eat my shorts!" thing from the '90's.

Better, you could simply speak plainly and leave no room for confusion.

As for the nobility of stripping or hooking as, say, compared to nursing, there isn't a comparison. I think most women find themselves in these professions because of a lack of options rather than some "calling."
 
Josie said:
Sports Illustrated models, strippers, etc. choose to show off their body for money. Men (mostly) then purchase the magazine or go to the strip clubs to ogle their bodies.

Feminists - does this bother you? Should a feminist woman be taking off her clothes so men will pay them? If it does bother you, how do you marry the two feminist thoughts that women should never be objectified and women should do whatever the hell they want with their bodies?
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Not a woman and not a feminist, but I'll chime in.

To me, feminism is about... or should be about... empowerment and choices. If a woman wants to be a stripper or a stay-at-home-mom or a corporate executive, all of those should be welcomed and respected so long as said choices are done freely and without coercion.
 
RAMOSS said:
I bet you do believe in many of the things about being a feminist though.. like making your own choice NOT be get married to a guy and be a baby factory.
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Just because you claim these things are part of feminism doesn't make anybody that believes them a feminist. I bet feminists believe murder is wrong. So is it a feminist stand point to be against murder?
 
radcen said:
Not a woman and not a feminist, but I'll chime in.

To me, feminism is about... or should be about... empowerment and choices. If a woman wants to be a stripper or a stay-at-home-mom or a corporate executive, all of those should be welcomed and respected so long as said choices are done freely and without coercion.
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This. A stay at home mother can easily be as objectified as a stripper if she lets herself. It's about the choices we want to make and what empowers us as women.
 
calamity said:
lol...do you actually believe that when she's whispering it in your ear? I suspect most of them are just stripping to feed a drug habit. But, they are very good at telling men exactly what they want to hear. That is for sure.

I tell my wife she needs to go to stripper school. She never tells me what I want to hear. :(
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Nobody likes a dumb stripper.
 
Josie said:
Sports Illustrated models, strippers, etc. choose to show off their body for money. Men (mostly) then purchase the magazine or go to the strip clubs to ogle their bodies.

Feminists - does this bother you? Should a feminist woman be taking off her clothes so men will pay them? If it does bother you, how do you marry the two feminist thoughts that women should never be objectified and women should do whatever the hell they want with their bodies?
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I mean... no?

The influence of patriarchy on sex (and this is an industry that is, basically, in the general orbit of sex work) is incredibly, insanely complex. I mean, just the way you've phrased your question shows how complex it is: who ever said that being naked, or even sex work more broadly is objectifying? Why do you make that assumption? And who makes it so, in your eyes? The male gaze, or the woman's actions? This very quickly turns into a total cluster**** of a question, to be honest.

But on the practical front, are there still a lot of women who wind up in these careers for reasons related to sexism when they may or may not want to? Yeah. Are there women who go into these careers because they like them? Yeah. Is there any way for the latter women to know for certain whether they like it on their own steam, or for socially influenced reasons? No. Should anyone torture themselves over that? No.

As a feminist, I am much more concerned with dealing with the overarching issue (patriarchy still influences the sex industry, some women still wind up in these careers when they don't want to...) than badgering any individual woman about her choice and why she made it. That isn't the point.

The point is that I'd like tomorrow's women to grow up in a world where they actually CAN know for certain they'll be able to make definitively uncoerced decisions that were not influenced by sexist ideas. You don't get that by bickering about the choices of today's women. Today's women do the best they can in the situation they're in. If they're happy, that's frankly fantastic. A lot of women still can't even have that much.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
I mean... no?

The influence of patriarchy on sex (and this is an industry that is, basically, in the general orbit of sex work) is incredibly, insanely complex. I mean, just the way you've phrased your question shows how complex it is: who ever said that being naked, or even sex work more broadly is objectifying? Why do you make that assumption? And who makes it so, in your eyes? The male gaze, or the woman's actions? This very quickly turns into a total cluster**** of a question, to be honest.

But on the practical front, are there still a lot of women who wind up in these careers for reasons related to sexism when they may or may not want to? Yeah. Are there women who go into these careers because they like them? Yeah. Is there any way for the latter women to know for certain whether they like it on their own steam, or for socially influenced reasons? No. Should anyone torture themselves over that? No.

As a feminist, I am much more concerned with dealing with the overarching issue (patriarchy still influences the sex industry, some women still wind up in these careers when they don't want to...) than badgering any individual woman about her choice and why she made it. That isn't the point.

The point is that I'd like tomorrow's women to grow up in a world where they actually CAN know for certain they'll be able to make definitively uncoerced decisions that were not influenced by sexist ideas. You don't get that by bickering about the choices of today's women. Today's women do the best they can in the situation they're in. If they're happy, that's frankly fantastic. A lot of women still can't even have that much.
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Many people have. Albeit more so in older and previous generations. That point-of-view has a long history.
 
radcen said:
Many people have. Albeit more so in older and previous generations. That point-of-view has a long history.
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Yeah, I know, I'm more sort of making the point that we're so mired in it that we can barely even ask the question without terming it in our biases, you know? This is one of the most complicated questions in all of feminist social theory, and there's really nothing else we can even draw from to try to evaluate it. To try to boil it down to "stripping is good/bad" seems almost absurd to me.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Yeah, I know, I'm more sort of making the point that we're so mired in it that we can barely even ask the question without terming it in our biases, you know? This is one of the most complicated questions in all of feminist social theory, and there's really nothing else we can even draw from to try to evaluate it. To try to boil it down to "stripping is good/bad" seems almost absurd to me.
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I agree it's complex.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Yeah, I know, I'm more sort of making the point that we're so mired in it that we can barely even ask the question without terming it in our biases, you know? This is one of the most complicated questions in all of feminist social theory, and there's really nothing else we can even draw from to try to evaluate it. To try to boil it down to "stripping is good/bad" seems almost absurd to me.
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Sex sells... even if it isn't actual prostitution, or stripping. Look how many TV ads imply sex. I think there are more hang ups given to people because of that one instinct than any other.
 
Moot said:
Strippers do indeed regard it as empowerment.
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Not all of them, Moot. Some do. Some strip because they haven't finished their education and have no other marketable skills; some do because they have little kids at home but can afford a babysitter at night; some do because they have drug habits and can make a bit of extra party or photography money.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/151418-9-myths-about-strippers-debunked-by-a-former-stripper

https://thinkprogress.org/strip-clu...hese-strippers-are-fighting-back-fb3a204bcc5a
 
Moot said:
Strippers do indeed regard it as empowerment.
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How many people really think in those terms? How many people are like "I feel empowered" in any thing they do? It's just not a normal train of thought.
 
Henrin said:
How many people really think in those terms? How many people are like "I feel empowered" in any thing they do? It's just not a normal train of thought.
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It is for me, Henrin.
 
Henrin said:
How many people really think in those terms? How many people are like "I feel empowered" in any thing they do? It's just not a normal train of thought.
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nota bene said:
It is for me, Henrin.
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But Henrin isn't necessarily incorrect. Some people do, you bet, but I believe they're in the minority. Most people just have a job and that's all it is is a job to earn money to make a living. Even many people with degrees end up doing something different.

I believe that people who do feel empowered should feel blessed and thankful for it, because not everyone gets to experience the same.
 
radcen said:
But Henrin isn't necessarily incorrect. Some people do, you bet, but I believe they're in the minority. Most people just have a job and that's all it is is a job to earn money to make a living. Even many people with degrees end up doing something different.

I believe that people who do feel empowered should feel blessed and thankful for it, because not everyone gets to experience the same.
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I honestly just don't like the rhetoric. It's used as encouragement tool for young women, which is fine and I'm 100% behind that, but it is not used in an honest and universal way. For one thing, it's not about the woman's feelings at all or really about empowering women, but about what feminists want women to do. For example, they will never call a stay at home mother empowered, or a nurse or even a teacher, but if the woman wants to be a ceo, a fighter, politician, or scientist then feminists will encourage those women by calling such things empowering. For another, empowerment is subjective and most people don't really think of things in that kind of frame of mind, nor is it likely a healthy thing to really focus on. Telling women to do those things that make them happy is in my mind a far better approach because then women are looking towards their interests and their own desires for their life and not focused on trying to do what other people want of them.

Of course, many of the fields that feminists don't consider empowering were once male dominated just like the fields they today consider empowering, like for example, nursing, that at one time was a male dominated field. They could in fact expand the argument into a patriarchy argument by looking at trends of male behavior when women start doing what men are doing. When women enter a field men leave at a two to one ratio to women. Meaning, that men start flooding out of the field like someone farted. This is really how fields have traditionally switched like nursing did and what is still happening today in fields all over the economy. Men have a strong tendency to stop doing whatever women start doing no matter the activity. They could claim men are doing that because they were trained to do it, which is probably got some truth to it, but probably not the entire story either.
 
radcen said:
But Henrin isn't necessarily incorrect. Some people do, you bet, but I believe they're in the minority. Most people just have a job and that's all it is is a job to earn money to make a living. Even many people with degrees end up doing something different.

I believe that people who do feel empowered should feel blessed and thankful for it, because not everyone gets to experience the same.
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Most of the people I know have careers rather than "just jobs," and although there are downsides, they generally love what they do, especially those in careers that don't pay well (at least financially). Every job matters if you care about it. It's true that some people regard any job as "just a job," but in my observation, most people aren't just drones picking up a paycheck. Some, yes; most, no.
 
nota bene said:
Most of the people I know have careers rather than "just jobs," and although there are downsides, they generally love what they do, especially those in careers that don't pay well (at least financially). Every job matters if you care about it. It's true that some people regard any job as "just a job," but in my observation, most people aren't just drones picking up a paycheck. Some, yes; most, no.
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I would say "some no, most yes", but ok. Very few people actually work in their ideal fantasy job. For many a career is just a long-term job that has worked out well. Some people fall into something that they end up loving and never expected. Most people... don't. I have never heard a person state a passion for wanting a career in retail, or as a restaurant employee (famous chefs excepted, lol), or as an oil rig worker, or as the guy who empties porta-potties, and on and on and on. They can take pride in their work, sure, but bottom line it's still just a job.
 
nota bene said:
Next time you want to provide a hint, consider your audience. You're assuming that I watch "The Simpsons." I never have and remember only the "Eat my shorts!" thing from the '90's.

Better, you could simply speak plainly and leave no room for confusion.

As for the nobility of stripping or hooking as, say, compared to nursing, there isn't a comparison. I think most women find themselves in these professions because of a lack of options rather than some "calling."
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Most teachers find themselves in the profession of teaching due to a lack of options as well. Most of them weren't exactly at the top of their classes in their respective majors if you know what I mean. However, does this mean we should look down upon them?

In terms of the nobility of hooking v. nursing, I'd say they are equivalent. Both are in the business of helping others. If you see them or value them differently, that is a 'you' problem.

P.S. I love confusion. Please don't ask me to stop...
 
radcen said:
Not a woman and not a feminist, but I'll chime in.

To me, feminism is about... or should be about... empowerment and choices. If a woman wants to be a stripper or a stay-at-home-mom or a corporate executive, all of those should be welcomed and respected so long as said choices are done freely and without coercion.
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Agreed, whether or not it's empowering depends on how freely the choice is made.

If it's seen as the only option to survive, then it can be degrading.

If it's just seen as a way to cash in on some assets, then it can be empowering.
 
ibelsd said:
Most teachers find themselves in the profession of teaching due to a lack of options as well. Most of them weren't exactly at the top of their classes in their respective majors if you know what I mean.
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Uh, no. Most teachers I know went to school for nothing other than teaching, not because they weren't smart enough to have the career they really wanted.
 
RAMOSS said:
Sex sells... even if it isn't actual prostitution, or stripping. Look how many TV ads imply sex. I think there are more hang ups given to people because of that one instinct than any other.
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Actually, new research shows that sex doesn't always sell. Men tend to remember the sex but forget the product. Women tend to remember the product and dislike the product as a result of the appeal to sex.

https://qz.com/1013695/a-new-study-shows-sex-doesnt-actually-sell/

Some products like alcohol aren't affected, which isn't terribly surprising IMO.
 
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