Caitlin Moran: Men, let's talk about rape

A friend sent me a link to this article in The Times and wanted to discuss it. Here it is and below it, my reply.

Does anyone here really believe that every man is a potential rapist given enough alcohol and the opportunity?

Men, let's talk about rape

And here's what I wrote to my friend...

I just read the article again over my elevenses. It annoys me more at second reading. There are so many lazy assumptions, non sequiturs and logical fallacies that it's hard to know where to start. So, from the top I guess is easiest.

• "Anyone curious about human nature would find it impossible not to." I really don't think it demonstrates curiosity but a proclivity to jump to conclusions based on half-arsed assumptions. She proceeds with those assumptions without ever providing data or logic to support them.
• "with every high-profile rape case, we are told the same thing, over and over again: rape just isn’t that surprising. This is how men and women drinking often ends. It’s not … a freakish event. It’s not … a sub-human act." Are we really? We are told that "over and over again"? I really don't recall anyone trying to convince me that there's anything normative about rapey behaviour. Do you? Who? Where might we go to find someone making that argument?
• "So here’s the thing I can’t square: no men I know seem capable of rape. Not my husband, my brothers, my father or my friends. And yet rape is, time after time, presented as something any man could do – if the evening were wild enough, and the woman confused/confusing enough. A possible end to any night." I think she's been reading some odd articles and books. Arguing that rape is something "any man could do" sounds like the kind of rhetoric that might come from the more extreme end of radical feminist thought rather than a common assumption of unreconstructed patriarchal society; something Andrea Dworkin might have written rather than a GQ columnist.
• "the fact that one in five women is the victim of sexual assault" I've read statistics like that before and while I don't doubt them, I think conflating 'sexual assault' with 'rape' is a bit dishonest, since her article is specifically and stridently about rape. According to official stats there are about 15,000 rapes committed per year in the UK. That would equate to around 1 million women who might be raped in the course of a 70-year lifespan. That's about 3% of the female population. That's a much less shocking figure, which I think is why Ms Moran didn't use it, but instead chose a completely irrelevant but much more dramatic figure.

I don't dismiss everything in the article. I agree that the debate about rape prevention, education of men around the issue, and the imperative to deal with the circumstances and causes of rape should fall most heavily on men. It's generally, although not exclusively, a male pattern of offending, however I don't see the point of saying "it's your problem, deal with it" and ducking out of the conversation. I can participate in a debate about Islamist terrorism despite not being Muslim. I can involve myself in conversations about homophobia whilst not being heterosexual. What might be the point, benefit or motivation for wanting out of the dialogue?


As far as I can see, the only reason for asking the men in your life the question is if you buy into that narrative that any man could be a rapist, given enough alcohol. I'm pretty sure I don't. I remember back in the day being supportive of feminist friends who would make that statement, because I agree that in the mind of women who might find themselves in situations of potential danger, that is the safest thing to think: not that every man is a potential rapist, but that any man could be one of those who do, however small the percentage likelihood is that he will be.


So, well done Ms Moran for raising the issue although, contrary to the implication, it is one that does get raised quite often. And boo, hiss to you Ms Moran for using poor logic, false assumptions and dishonest arguments in justifying your appalling bad manners towards the men in your life.

Sure, given enough booze consent always gets to either confused or non existent, and since we have decided that lack of proper consent is always the males fault....but this is all in the event of there being sex.....and a fair number of people to include guys are not interested in sex.

But lazy and dishonest is common with folks who are driven by their political agendas, as we all see here at DP.

Wow, nothing to add.

where do these people come from and why are they allowed to publish some slandering bs and get away with it.

men are not the only people that commit rape. women commit rape as well. the stats are low because it is often not reported
and men are very shy about reporting such things in general.

rape involving alcohol gets a bit more tricky and I think needs to have a closer examination.
usually both parties have been drinking more than they should. if it is enough alcohol then at some point
someone doesn't remember something.

that is when accusations start getting thrown around. I don't see how you can convict someone of such a grevious crime
on speculation that something inappropriate might have happened.

this is more of the anti-male nonsense that continues to this day.

if people want to talk about rape then lets have an honest discussion.

In my opinion, Caitlin Moran is clearly in violation of Section 47 of the Offences Against the Person Act. I could be wrong but who knows?

Sounds like she succeeded in ahieving her goal: trolling thin-skinned males.

calamity said:

Sounds like she succeeded in ahieving her goal: trolling thin-skinned males.

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Of course those who are guilty are not insulted.

If Caitlin Moran is in violation of Section 47 of the Offences Against the Person Act, why is she not in jail? I may be wrong, in my opinion she is 100% guilty under that act.

calamity said:

Sounds like she succeeded in ahieving her goal: trolling thin-skinned males.

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"Muslims, let's talk about terrorism."
"The blacks, let's talk about crime."

Trump could have re-tooled this by exchanging the words men and rape with Muslims/blacks and terrorism/crime and almost nothing else. Matter of fact, he could even more simply put "Syrian refugees" in place of men in that speech and drop the microphone.

Then the Pepe Le Froggies could come up behind him and say "Sounds like he succeeded in achieving his goal: trolling teh blacks and teh Muslims."

SCitizen said:

Of course those who are guilty are not insulted.

If Caitlin Moran is in violation of Section 47 of the Offences Against the Person Act, why is she not in jail? I may be wrong, in my opinion she is 100% guilty under that act.

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Exactly. Who even thinks people like Trump or that Stanford groper guy even care about this? They know rape is wrong. They don't givadam.

SCitizen said:

Of course those who are guilty are not insulted.

If Caitlin Moran is in violation of Section 47 of the Offences Against the Person Act, why is she not in jail? I may be wrong, in my opinion she is 100% guilty under that act.

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I never heard of this Act of which you speak.

calamity said:

I never heard of this Act of which you speak.

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The Section is here:

Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm, contrary to section 47 Offences against the Person Act 1861

The offence is committed when a person assaults another, thereby causing Actual Bodily Harm (ABH). Bodily harm has its ordinary meaning and includes any hurt calculated to interfere with the health or comfort of the victim: such hurt need not be permanent, but must be more than transient and trifling: (R v Donovan 25 Cr. App. Rep. 1, CCA).

It is an either way offence, which carries a maximum penalty on indictment of five years' imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine not exceeding the statutory maximum.

As stated in the Common Assault section of this Charging Standard, the factors in law that distinguish a charge under section 39 from a charge under section 47 are the degree of injury resulting and the sentencing powers available to the sentencing court.

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In my opinion, injuring a child is one of the most cowardly ways of committing Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm.

SCitizen said:

The Section is here:



In my opinion, injuring a child is one of the most cowardly ways of committing Assault Occasioning Actual Bodily Harm.

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Who's injuring a child? Isn't this thread about some article someone wrote about rape?

Zalatix said:

"Muslims, let's talk about terrorism."
"The blacks, let's talk about crime."...

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An opinion piece like that would actually be OK, in my book. In fact, I bet there are many that discuss the issues just like you wrote them. I know I've seen more than just one or two.

calamity said:

Who's injuring a child? Isn't this thread about some article someone wrote about rape?

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How can you know that Caitlin Moran did not inflict injuries on children?

First, women do commit most child abuse.

Second, modius operandi of an author who attacks men is the same as modius operandi of child abuser -- both select a target which in the first case would not and in the second case can not defend themselves.

Third, even if she is guilty of abusing one or more child she will almost certainly deny it.

SCitizen said:

How can you know that Caitlin Moran did not inflict injuries on children?

First, women do commit most child abuse.

Second, modius operandi of an author who attacks men is the same as modius operandi of child abuser -- both select a target which in the first case would not and in the second case can not defend themselves.

Third, even if she is guilty of abusing one or more child she will almost certainly deny it.

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What. Are. You. Talking. About?

calamity said:

What. Are. You. Talking. About?

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I never claimed I am sure that she has injured a child. But if she did would anything she writes worth anything?

If Crystal Williams who "pleaded guilty to a charge of injury to a child in the death of her stepson, Josiah Williams" wrote a moralistic article, could her opinion be dismissed due to her character?

SCitizen said:

In my opinion, Caitlin Moran is clearly in violation of Section 47 of the Offences Against the Person Act.

Click to expand...

In what way 'clearly' in breach of it? She might be, who knows? But there's nothing in the article or searchable online to suggest she's committed common assault against anyone. Are you trolling?

SCitizen said:

How can you know that Caitlin Moran did not inflict injuries on children?

First, women do commit most child abuse.

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Wait, can we move past the whole "who commits the most abuse" game? Both men and women can commit child abuse. I honestly think it's more prudent to talk about people committing abuse, not women or men. That seems to me like real feminism, eh?

I apologize i had to delete some of your post to be under the character limit.

Andalublue said:

I don't dismiss everything in the article. I agree that the debate about rape prevention, education of men around the issue, and the imperative to deal with the circumstances and causes of rape should fall most heavily on men. It's generally, although not exclusively, a male pattern of offending, however I don't see the point of saying "it's your problem, deal with it" and ducking out of the conversation. I can participate in a debate about Islamist terrorism despite not being Muslim. I can involve myself in conversations about homophobia whilst not being heterosexual. What might be the point, benefit or motivation for wanting out of the dialogue?


As far as I can see, the only reason for asking the men in your life the question is if you buy into that narrative that any man could be a rapist, given enough alcohol. I'm pretty sure I don't. I remember back in the day being supportive of feminist friends who would make that statement, because I agree that in the mind of women who might find themselves in situations of potential danger, that is the safest thing to think: not that every man is a potential rapist, but that any man could be one of those who do, however small the percentage likelihood is that he will be.


So, well done Ms Moran for raising the issue although, contrary to the implication, it is one that does get raised quite often. And boo, hiss to you Ms Moran for using poor logic, false assumptions and dishonest arguments in justifying your appalling bad manners towards the men in your life.

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Any able bodied person anywhere can rape someone else. It is within our capacity as humans to do it. All it requires is sex without consent.

Most people understand already that rape is wrong even people who commit the act. So the education is complete. Where we need to focus what causes people to do it regardless of knowing is wrong. Let's treat it just like any other crime of violence.

Take for example murder if you commit murder but you don't think it's wrong you're mentally ill. I would say the same thing about raping women children or even other men.

If you know it's wrong but do it anyway, that expresses intent. Are people committing rape because it's wrong? Or has the desire simply exceeded the point where you care about laws?

I find this article and your position to be an assumption that male sexuality is the problem. I disagree it isn't a 99% of men. It is either the lack of self-control or is the idea of doing something wrong is titillated.

But absolutely all able-bodied people are capable of rape.

CLAX1911 said:

I apologize i had to delete some of your post to be under the character limit.



Any able bodied person anywhere can rape someone else. It is within our capacity as humans to do it. All it requires is sex without consent.

Most people understand already that rape is wrong even people who commit the act. So the education is complete. Where we need to focus what causes people to do it regardless of knowing is wrong. Let's treat it just like any other crime of violence.

Take for example murder if you commit murder but you don't think it's wrong you're mentally ill. I would say the same thing about raping women children or even other men.

If you know it's wrong but do it anyway, that expresses intent. Are people committing rape because it's wrong? Or has the desire simply exceeded the point where you care about laws?

I find this article and your position to be an assumption that male sexuality is the problem. I disagree it isn't a 99% of men. It is either the lack of self-control or is the idea of doing something wrong is titillated.

But absolutely all able-bodied people are capable of rape.

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To be absolutely clear, I disagree with the very premise of the Moran article. I think it is definitely not an issue of male sexuality, but of criminality.

Andalublue said:

To be absolutely clear, I disagree with the very premise of the Moran article. I think it is definitely not an issue of male sexuality, but of criminality.

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But do you agree that only men and all men are capable of rape? Or do you agree all people are?

To me to say we have to teach men not to rape is profoundly mysandrous. Most men know not to. Even men that do it know it's wrong.

So do we need to tell all men that without going to a degrading "education" that is completely needless they can't be considered safe to be around women?

CLAX1911 said:

But do you agree that only men and all men are capable of rape? Or do you agree all people are?

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Since you don't need a penis, at least not one naturally attached to your body, to commit rape, anyone is capable.

To me to say we have to teach men not to rape is profoundly mysandrous. Most men know not to. Even men that do it know it's wrong.

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I think we have to impress upon everyone that you will not get away with it, that you will be caught eventually, even if it's years or decades down the line. If you are considering committing a crime that you know you'll get caught for, you are less likely to commit it.

So do we need to tell all men that without going to a degrading "education" that is completely needless they can't be considered safe to be around women?

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No.

Andalublue said:

Since you don't need a penis, at least not one naturally attached to your body, to commit rape, anyone is capable.

I think we have to impress upon everyone that you will not get away with it, that you will be caught eventually, even if it's years or decades down the line. If you are considering committing a crime that you know you'll get caught for, you are less likely to commit it.

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I seriously doubt consequences are on the mind of the perpetrators in the moment they decided to act. If it was this would be an excellent argument for the death penalty.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It has to do with an uncontrolled desire nature meeting predatory apathetic behavior, and what nobody wants to admit is that under certain conditions a lot of human beings (not just men) can begin to feel these predatory qualities.

However, people with a moral center that is informed by their own conscience - not just what society tells them is "right" - will never engage in rape.

The notion that all men have some kind of hidden rape psychology at work in them is just absurd. Testosterone makes people more sexually desiring and pursuing, but that kind of aggression is not the same as a rape complex.

Oh dear…where even to begin.

"Rape is a man’s issue – wholly and totally. Men, why are you not talking about this? There is a social understanding any one of you could rape. Does that not horrify you? ..... Are you not insulted when you are told conversations about rape and sexual assault are just “normal locker-room banter” – that these are the conversations men have; that this is how you all think?"

^^^ How about with this entire paragraph.
Of course men are insulted by these statements. Because this DOES NOT HAPPEN. Men do not need to be told what a disgusting, scum-bag thing it is to rape someone. Nobody does. When a person(regardless of gender) rapes another person, they do so knowing that what they are doing is heinous. If they thought otherwise, they wouldn’t try to intimidate their victim into silence. They wouldn’t roofie strangers in a bar. Rape and assault talk isn’t “locker-room banter”. I’d be willing to bet at least 5 dollars that a man joking about raping someone in the Planet Fitness locker room wouldn’t leave without having their ass handed to them first by anyone listening in. Men aren’t Snidely Whiplashes lurking in the background, twirling their mustaches and waiting for an unsuspecting damsel to drop her guard for a second. They aren’t f**king leopard seals.

“There’s not one single thing we can or should say”

So that’s it then? Just throwing in the towel? “Oh gracious, guess it’s a lost cause then. Let me go hide myself in a tower and await my wun twue wuv to save me from the slavering masses of testosterone. Whatever else can I do?”


“It’s absolutely, 1000 per cent correct.”

Okay. This is just me nit-picking here, but if you are trying to give an intelligent argument about a topic like this, please please avoid sentences like this one.
-percent not per cent.
-percentages don’t go over 100. 100 percent is absolute already.
- also. Absolutely, 1000 percent is redundant.

"and yet I see no men writing about rape, or campaigning against rape."

Here are just a small amount of the well-known men who advocate against rape. Keep in mind, these are all from the first three results on Google when you search “men who speak out against rape”

-Everyone on this website (MenCanStopRape.org)

Some NFL stars:
-NFL Linebacker De’Andre Levy
-Actor and former NFL star, Terry Crews
Some celebrities
-Actor Matt McGorry, (guy from Orange is the New Black)
-Actor Channing Tatum (has a history of being a male stripper)
-Actor David Schwimmer (Director of the LA-based non-profit organization “The Rape Foundation” which educates teens in LA about sexual assault prevention)
-Actor Shia Labouf stated he was raped by a woman during his #IAMSORRY political statement where he was placed in a room with a bag over his head (Her boyfriend was allegedly in the room with her at the time)
-Director Tyler Perry (raped by a woman who held him hostage in her house)
-Actor Tim Roth
-(My personal favourite) Sir Patrick Stewart VERY loud-spoken advocate for the “violence against women” campaign. Some of his quotes include: “It’s in our hands (men) to stop violence against women” and “People won’t listen to you unless you’re an old white man, and since I am an old white man I’m going to use that to help people who need it.”


All this to say:

Look. I get where you are coming from with this. I understand the point you are trying to make.

The fact that girls are taught to not walk alone (especially at night), to constantly keep their car keys in their fist like a Hugh Jackman cosplayer, to never leave their drink unattended at a bar, and always make sure someone knows where you’re going and when you’re supposed to be back shows that there is a huge problem when it comes to rape culture.

When college athletes charged with, and found guilty of, rape but are not given when jail-time when the dean of the university claims “losing their scholarship was punishment enough”. There is a huge problem when it comes to rape culture.

I’ll even go so far as to say that there IS a problem with gender discrimination being normalized. But that is a completely different argument for another rant.

I’m not saying there isn't a problem or even that you are completely wrong. But generalizing every male on the planet as a potential rapist given enough alcohol and an opportunity is not only false, but also not helpful in the slightest. No amount of Jaegermeister is gonna turn my brother (who likes to sing Rent verses in the shower and cried at Marley and Me) into a Ben Roethlisburger. And I imagine that is true for the majority of the male population. Men aren’t the enemy. Things like willful ignorance and cold disregard for the issue are.

Northern Light said:

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It has to do with an uncontrolled desire nature meeting predatory apathetic behavior, and what nobody wants to admit is that under certain conditions a lot of human beings (not just men) can begin to feel these predatory qualities.

However, people with a moral center that is informed by their own conscience - not just what society tells them is "right" - will never engage in rape.

The notion that all men have some kind of hidden rape psychology at work in them is just absurd. Testosterone makes people more sexually desiring and pursuing, but that kind of aggression is not the same as a rape complex.

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IMO, if someone respects women and has a shred of empathy, rape is not possible.