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Traditionalism vs. Feminism vs. Individualism

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whateverdude

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In this backlash against feminism, a lot of people are clinging to traditionalism as a sturdy foundation for a good society. I think that while this is good, it's also problematic in other ways.

First of all, I think a lot of people are misunderstanding "why" feminism is so bad. The reason why is because they want to destroy traditional ideas like the family or traditional gender roles. Which I agree is not good. However, forcing individuals into these roles isn't good either.
To me, what is good, is a lassiez fare approach to the whole thing. Individuals need to be more open and honest about their desires and reject both feminist and traditional dogma. Or don't reject them, there's nothing wrong to adhering to either.
But I don't see anything positive coming out of the whole "shame game" on either sides.

I'm a big believer in the horseshoe theory and I think this is a good example where both progressives and traditionalists have shown they have additional ideas about gender that go against individualism.
Both sides tend to operate under the assumption that the vast majority of women would be happier under their system.
That requires a lot of assumption about a lot of different people.

And I find it rather ironic when female right-wing media personalities say that "women are happier at home"
If that's true, then why don't you also quit your job and marry a rich man?
Why doesn't Ann Coulter quit her career right now? And why is she childless and unmarried? I mean, doesn't that make her miserable to not have kids? If being unmarried and childless is such a personal hell for women, then Ann Coulter must be suffering right now.

Many will respond by saying, "Well, I'm special, I'm part of that 5% of women, like Margret Thatcher, who belong in the workforce. But most women just aren't as confident and as powerful as me"

So conservatives tend to boast up his elite tiny percentage of women who belong in the workforce and are also suited for leadership. In nature we find exceptions to the rules all the time, so it's suitable to think the same applies to humans.
But it still expresses the idea that the vast majority of people, well over 90% are better off following traditional roles. Since we're are just slightly more advanced chimps. I don't know to what extent biological determinism plays a role in the development of gender roles or whether people are happier following them, but it obviously isn't 100% pure biological determinism. If so how do you account for different cultures?

I believe the way we maintain the values we want in the opposite sex is through the sexual/romantic market place.
This is one of the reasons I like the free market, because I don't think it's just an economic system. I think the free market is actually a philosophical system that encompases all things pertaining to individuals interacting. It really is an invisible hand that doesn't just touch the economic market, but all facets of life.
And like the free market there is supply and demand.
As long as there are heterosexual men and heterosexual women, there will be people with specific preferences about how their roles ought to work. And those people create a demand. And when there's a demand, there's a supply. It's not as if these traditionally feminine women do not exist. And in the internet age, it's so much easier to find people who fit your ideas about what a man/woman should be like.
This is why political correctness is bad.
Because in order to have this free market of love, people need to be honest. A supplier cannot supply the goods and services demanded if they don't know what those goods and services are. And if political correctness is making either men or women think they have to be a certain way, or that a certain way they want is unacceptable, that's not okay.
But don't deny that traditionalism can't do the same.
 
Last edited:
whateverdude said:
In this backlash against feminism, a lot of people are clinging to traditionalism as a sturdy foundation for a good society. I think that while this is good, it's also problematic in other ways.

First of all, I think a lot of people are misunderstanding "why" feminism is so bad. The reason why is because they want to destroy traditional ideas like the family or traditional gender roles. Which I agree is not good. However, forcing individuals into these roles isn't good either.
To me, what is good, is a lassiez fare approach to the whole thing. Individuals need to be more open and honest about their desires and reject both feminist and traditional dogma. Or don't reject them, there's nothing wrong to adhering to either.
But I don't see anything positive coming out of the whole "shame game" on either sides.

I'm a big believer in the horseshoe theory and I think this is a good example where both progressives and traditionalists have shown they have additional ideas about gender that go against individualism.
Both sides tend to operate under the assumption that the vast majority of women would be happier under their system.
That requires a lot of assumption about a lot of different people.

And I find it rather ironic when female right-wing media personalities say that "women are happier at home"
If that's true, then why don't you also quit your job and marry a rich man?
Why doesn't Ann Coulter quit her career right now? And why is she childless and unmarried? I mean, doesn't that make her miserable to not have kids? If being unmarried and childless is such a personal hell for women, then Ann Coulter must be suffering right now.

Many will respond by saying, "Well, I'm special, I'm part of that 5% of women, like Margret Thatcher, who belong in the workforce. But most women just aren't as confident and as powerful as me"

So conservatives tend to boast up his elite tiny percentage of women who belong in the workforce and are also suited for leadership. In nature we find exceptions to the rules all the time, so it's suitable to think the same applies to humans.
But it still expresses the idea that the vast majority of people, well over 90% are better off following traditional roles. Since we're are just slightly more advanced chimps. I don't know to what extent biological determinism plays a role in the development of gender roles or whether people are happier following them, but it obviously isn't 100% pure biological determinism. If so how do you account for different cultures?

I believe the way we maintain the values we want in the opposite sex is through the sexual/romantic market place.
This is one of the reasons I like the free market, because I don't think it's just an economic system. I think the free market is actually a philosophical system that encompases all things pertaining to individuals interacting. It really is an invisible hand that doesn't just touch the economic market, but all facets of life.
And like the free market there is supply and demand.
As long as there are heterosexual men and heterosexual women, there will be people with specific preferences about how their roles ought to work. And those people create a demand. And when there's a demand, there's a supply. It's not as if these traditionally feminine women do not exist. And in the internet age, it's so much easier to find people who fit your ideas about what a man/woman should be like.
This is why political correctness is bad.
Because in order to have this free market of love, people need to be honest. A supplier cannot supply the goods and services demanded if they don't know what those goods and services are. And if political correctness is making either men or women think they have to be a certain way, or that a certain way they want is unacceptable, that's not okay.
But don't deny that traditionalism can't do the same.
Click to expand...



What backlash against feminism?
 
Fearandloathing said:
What backlash against feminism?
Click to expand...

In general, in some communities and especially online amongst modern right-leaning thought, feminism is seen as a counter-productive, anti-male ideology that's completely divorced from it's original purpose
 
whateverdude said:
In general, in some communities and especially online amongst modern right-leaning thought, feminism is seen as a counter-productive, anti-male ideology that's completely divorced from it's original purpose
Click to expand...



Quote? You have a source?

"In general,in some communities" is a bit vague. In any case I suggest you need to establish what is "feminism" because it has changed since the bra burning days.

Today the issue is equal pay for equal work, which I can no argument against
 
whateverdude said:
In this backlash against feminism, a lot of people are clinging to traditionalism as a sturdy foundation for a good society. I think that while this is good, it's also problematic in other ways.

First of all, I think a lot of people are misunderstanding "why" feminism is so bad. The reason why is because they want to destroy traditional ideas like the family or traditional gender roles. Which I agree is not good. However, forcing individuals into these roles isn't good either.
Click to expand...

True, but feminists actually tried to force people away from those roles. They attacked traditional women and men in general for how they approached their lives. For women they were attacked for desiring to stay at home (they still are btw) and for men they were given **** for not doing the amount of work around the house feminists wanted them to do. Not only that but men had to accept the choices feminists wanted to essentially force on them and women. If they rejected the modern woman they were sexist pigs that just wanted to make slaves of women (that attack still exists too). In short, it was never really about people doing what they want, but about feminists getting what they wanted.

To me, what is good, is a lassiez fare approach to the whole thing. Individuals need to be more open and honest about their desires and reject both feminist and traditional dogma. Or don't reject them, there's nothing wrong to adhering to either.
Click to expand...

I'll agree with that. People need to listen to themselves and follow what they want. Far to often people do what society expects of them and reject other views because society told them too.

Both sides tend to operate under the assumption that the vast majority of women would be happier under their system.
Click to expand...

Except it's not really an assumption when it comes to traditional relationships as it currently stands. It's simply a fact that research shows time and time again that traditional relationships are happier.

And I find it rather ironic when female right-wing media personalities say that "women are happier at home"
If that's true, then why don't you also quit your job and marry a rich man?
Click to expand...

Because rich men are in short supply? Most women are pretty much required to work these days due to economic realities.

Why doesn't Ann Coulter quit her career right now? And why is she childless and unmarried? I mean, doesn't that make her miserable to not have kids? If being unmarried and childless is such a personal hell for women, then Ann Coulter must be suffering right now.
Click to expand...

Well, she's a troll, so...
 
Fearandloathing said:
Quote? You have a source?

"In general,in some communities" is a bit vague. In any case I suggest you need to establish what is "feminism" because it has changed since the bra burning days.

Today the issue is equal pay for equal work, which I can no argument against
Click to expand...

Nowadays when you think of feminists, you think of various ideas such as the wage gap, certain statistics on rape, the idea that we need to persue equality of outcome for men and women, and other stuff that's pretty BS.
The problem is that feminism has become extremely instiutionalized by academia. And a lot of very deceptive things have been done by academics, marxists, and social justice warriors to produce the modern beliefs third wave feminists holds.
Everything from statistical manipulation to appealing to the PC sensitive masses.
I mean, it's more accurate to say that what I'm talking about isn't "feminism" but a conglomerate of left-wing ideas stemming from different social elements, but nowadays 3rd wave feminist, particularly intersectional feminism has manifested from these ideas
 
Fearandloathing said:
What backlash against feminism?
Click to expand...

The amount of people that agree with feminism is way down. Surveys of younger people show that traditional views could experience a rebound in the coming decades. When you're looking at 60% of eighteen year old's that would prefer the woman stay at home its notable and shows a clear rejection of feminism teaching and modern society.
 
whateverdude said:
Nowadays when you think of feminists, you think of various ideas such as the wage gap, certain statistics on rape, the idea that we need to persue equality of outcome for men and women, and other stuff that's pretty BS.
The problem is that feminism has become extremely instiutionalized by academia. And a lot of very deceptive things have been done by academics, marxists, and social justice warriors to produce the modern beliefs third wave feminists holds.
Everything from statistical manipulation to appealing to the PC sensitive masses.
I mean, it's more accurate to say that what I'm talking about isn't "feminism" but a conglomerate of left-wing ideas stemming from different social elements, but nowadays 3rd wave feminist, particularly intersectional feminism has manifested from these ideas
Click to expand...



Again, source?
 
whateverdude said:
In this backlash against feminism, a lot of people are clinging to traditionalism as a sturdy foundation for a good society. I think that while this is good, it's also problematic in other ways.

First of all, I think a lot of people are misunderstanding "why" feminism is so bad. The reason why is because they want to destroy traditional ideas like the family or traditional gender roles. Which I agree is not good. However, forcing individuals into these roles isn't good either.
To me, what is good, is a lassiez fare approach to the whole thing. Individuals need to be more open and honest about their desires and reject both feminist and traditional dogma. Or don't reject them, there's nothing wrong to adhering to either.
But I don't see anything positive coming out of the whole "shame game" on either sides.

I'm a big believer in the horseshoe theory and I think this is a good example where both progressives and traditionalists have shown they have additional ideas about gender that go against individualism.
Both sides tend to operate under the assumption that the vast majority of women would be happier under their system.
That requires a lot of assumption about a lot of different people.

And I find it rather ironic when female right-wing media personalities say that "women are happier at home"
If that's true, then why don't you also quit your job and marry a rich man?
Why doesn't Ann Coulter quit her career right now? And why is she childless and unmarried? I mean, doesn't that make her miserable to not have kids? If being unmarried and childless is such a personal hell for women, then Ann Coulter must be suffering right now.

Many will respond by saying, "Well, I'm special, I'm part of that 5% of women, like Margret Thatcher, who belong in the workforce. But most women just aren't as confident and as powerful as me"

So conservatives tend to boast up his elite tiny percentage of women who belong in the workforce and are also suited for leadership. In nature we find exceptions to the rules all the time, so it's suitable to think the same applies to humans.
But it still expresses the idea that the vast majority of people, well over 90% are better off following traditional roles. Since we're are just slightly more advanced chimps. I don't know to what extent biological determinism plays a role in the development of gender roles or whether people are happier following them, but it obviously isn't 100% pure biological determinism. If so how do you account for different cultures?

I believe the way we maintain the values we want in the opposite sex is through the sexual/romantic market place.
This is one of the reasons I like the free market, because I don't think it's just an economic system. I think the free market is actually a philosophical system that encompases all things pertaining to individuals interacting. It really is an invisible hand that doesn't just touch the economic market, but all facets of life.
And like the free market there is supply and demand.
As long as there are heterosexual men and heterosexual women, there will be people with specific preferences about how their roles ought to work. And those people create a demand. And when there's a demand, there's a supply. It's not as if these traditionally feminine women do not exist. And in the internet age, it's so much easier to find people who fit your ideas about what a man/woman should be like.
This is why political correctness is bad.
Because in order to have this free market of love, people need to be honest. A supplier cannot supply the goods and services demanded if they don't know what those goods and services are. And if political correctness is making either men or women think they have to be a certain way, or that a certain way they want is unacceptable, that's not okay.
But don't deny that traditionalism can't do the same.
Click to expand...

Good afternoon, whateverdude. :2wave:

Well said! :thumbs: :agree: Since all of us were not raised the exact same way - we are not robots, although some apparently wish we were for reasons of overall control - we should remember that some parents were stricter than others; some parents went to church while others did not; some parents were wealthy and could take their children on vacations, while others could not - using several examples.

During WW2, women were encouraged to work, and many did so willingly because the men were off fighting the war, and some of them found that they liked earning money for their efforts, and encouraged their daughters, by example, to think in a similar manner. Traditional thinking has worked for thousands of years, but the world has changed, and it seems that "Anything Goes" today, which only means that none of us should expect that everyone will be in agreement on this, and that's normal. Women should do what's best for them, including the Feminists, because that's the fair thing to do! :thumbs:
 
Henrin said:
The amount of people that agree with feminism is way down. Surveys of younger people show that traditional views could experience a rebound in the coming decades. When you're looking at 60% of eighteen year old's that would prefer the woman stay at home its notable and shows a clear rejection of feminism teaching and modern society.
Click to expand...

Source?

I think most eighteen year olds don't know what they want at that age and probably think staying at home means staying on snapchat all day. :lol:
 
americanwoman said:
Source?

I think most eighteen year olds don't know what they want at that age and probably think staying at home means staying on snapchat all day. :lol:
Click to expand...

I mean, isn't that kind of what it is?
How much labor could possibly be generated from one home? It should not take you more than an hour to clean the entire house and cooking is not that hard either.
As far as kids are concerned... My mom was a stay-at-home mom, but I had privacy and I wasn't around her 24/7, so I'd imagine that unless you have some form of OCD, staying at home means a lot of free time.
And honestly, I don't think it's healthy to spend all that free time with the kid. Just like I'm not too fond of the whole "family night" tradition where everyone unpluggs and play some gay little board game.
I think even stay-at-home moms need to leave their kids alone and let them play video games alone in their room for several hours.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Again, source?
Click to expand...

https://www.britannica.com/topic/feminism/The-third-wave-of-feminism
There's a general criticism of third wave feminists as a whole.
However, you'd have to look up specific things. It's not hard to find articles debunking blatently false ideas like how the wage gap is misrepresented or the 1-5 rape/sexual assault myth.
There's also tons of case by case scenarios such as the Duke Lacross case. Not so much the case itself, but the "group of 88" and the reaction from academia which is problematic.

Naturally, there will always be women that will lie about rape. However, when academics motivated by political correctness reject the presumption of innocence that's a problem... The Mattress Girl thing is even worse as it shows feminists are willing to rally behind women for no reason other than that they're women.
Sure you could say that feminism is not the reason this girl lied about rape. But feminism is the reason why people believed her and decided to drag mattresses around the campus themselves.

Third wave feminism earned the reputation it has. I would say that it's cancer
 
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whateverdude said:
I mean, isn't that kind of what it is?
How much labor could possibly be generated from one home? It should not take you more than an hour to clean the entire house and cooking is not that hard either.
As far as kids are concerned... My mom was a stay-at-home mom, but I had privacy and I wasn't around her 24/7, so I'd imagine that unless you have some form of OCD, staying at home means a lot of free time.
And honestly, I don't think it's healthy to spend all that free time with the kid. Just like I'm not too fond of the whole "family night" tradition where everyone unpluggs and play some gay little board game.
I think even stay-at-home moms need to leave their kids alone and let them play video games alone in their room for several hours.
Click to expand...

While I agree that you don't need to spend all your time together, I strongly disagree to let them alone in their room for hours playing video games. For one thing a stay at home parent, unless they are home schooling, are the majority of time taking care of young children like 5 and under and there should be no alone video game time for a child that young. If it is summer and the children are older, there are so many summer activities and things to do, there should be no reason for hours of video game playing. Don't get me wrong, I am a gamer but I am a little strict when it comes to the time spent on such activities and the type of games a kid can play.
 
americanwoman said:
While I agree that you don't need to spend all your time together, I strongly disagree to let them alone in their room for hours playing video games. For one thing a stay at home parent, unless they are home schooling, are the majority of time taking care of young children like 5 and under and there should be no alone video game time for a child that young. If it is summer and the children are older, there are so many summer activities and things to do, there should be no reason for hours of video game playing. Don't get me wrong, I am a gamer but I am a little strict when it comes to the time spent on such activities and the type of games a kid can play.
Click to expand...

Video games are a bit too specific of an example.
Really individual or peer activity in general. I honestly believe that while some parent-child interaction is important, kids need a lot of time to spend either alone or with peers their own age.
 
Henrin said:
True, but feminists actually tried to force people away from those roles. They attacked traditional women and men in general for how they approached their lives. For women they were attacked for desiring to stay at home (they still are btw) and for men they were given **** for not doing the amount of work around the house feminists wanted them to do. Not only that but men had to accept the choices feminists wanted to essentially force on them and women. If they rejected the modern woman they were sexist pigs that just wanted to make slaves of women (that attack still exists too). In short, it was never really about people doing what they want, but about feminists getting what they wanted.
Click to expand...
The traditional role did make slaves of women, forcing them to be responsible for all house work and care of children. That they wanted equality in this work is not unreasonable.
Your use of the word force is questionable. They make a reasonable claim and because you do not like it then you call it being forced.

.
 
whateverdude said:
I mean, isn't that kind of what it is?
How much labor could possibly be generated from one home? It should not take you more than an hour to clean the entire house and cooking is not that hard either.
As far as kids are concerned... My mom was a stay-at-home mom, but I had privacy and I wasn't around her 24/7, so I'd imagine that unless you have some form of OCD, staying at home means a lot of free time.
And honestly, I don't think it's healthy to spend all that free time with the kid. Just like I'm not too fond of the whole "family night" tradition where everyone unpluggs and play some gay little board game.
I think even stay-at-home moms need to leave their kids alone and let them play video games alone in their room for several hours.
Click to expand...

Please tell me you are not actually married or even considering having children.
 
whateverdude said:
In general, in some communities and especially online amongst modern right-leaning thought, feminism is seen as a counter-productive, anti-male ideology that's completely divorced from it's original purpose
Click to expand...

I am 100% for Equal Rights and if it is the Websters definition of feminism then do count me and most men in. If women get lower pay that should be corrected -- it is as wrong as giving men 61% longer time for the same offense.

Nevertheless, I hope more men and some women would understand that anyone that considers all men responsible for wrongs of some men is evil. Making negative generalizations about any birth group is bigotry by definition.
 
SCitizen said:
I am 100% for Equal Rights and if it is the Websters definition of feminism then do count me and most men in. If women get lower pay that should be corrected -- it is as wrong as giving men 61% longer time for the same offense.

Nevertheless, I hope more men and some women would understand that anyone that considers all men responsible for wrongs of some men is evil. Making negative generalizations about any birth group is bigotry by definition.
Click to expand...

Well we're just not living at a point in time where western society needs feminism anymore.
So I don't think it's a good idea to describe the vast majority of people as "feminists" when in reality very few people identify by it now.

I mean, right now people just use the term egalitarianism. If one describes themselves as a feminist, they shouldn't be shocked if someone assumes they're radical.

In the same way, if people think you're racist because you call yourself alt-right... No ****... It's term coined by Richard Spencer.

Words have only as much value as we've given them. And despite what the dictionary says, feminism no longer has the value of being about equality between men and women. Times have changed
 
whateverdude said:
In general, in some communities and especially online amongst modern right-leaning thought, feminism is seen as a counter-productive, anti-male ideology that's completely divorced from it's original purpose
Click to expand...

So, IOW, there's actually no real backlash against feminism.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
So, IOW, there's actually no real backlash against feminism.
Click to expand...

There's obviously a backlash against modern SJW feminists.

There isn't a backlash against the textbook definition of feminism. However, that might be because there aren't as many people adhering to that definition of feminists.
Most people who the dictionary would call feminists, are not gonna be called feminists by the average person.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
So, IOW, there's actually no real backlash against feminism.
Click to expand...

There is no backlash against Equality -- if that is feminism count me and the majority of men in.

But there is massive backlash against misandry on Social Media. To reiterate "anyone that considers all men responsible for wrongs of some men is evil. Making negative generalizations about any birth group is bigotry by definition."
 
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