Dating, Is Full Disclosure Required?

William Rea said:

I think that the threats and actual carrying out of this kind of 'payback' violence are fueled by fragile ego and insecurity; if your response to making an honest error of judgement is threats or violence then you have deep problems. If you suspect that someone is trans but, go along with it and then have post relationship guilt issues and your response to that is threats and violence then you have deep problems.

For many trans people it is very important, if not imperative, for them to be identified as the gender that they present as so the temptation to be flattered by that kind of attention can be overwhelming. It is very difficult to burst that bubble once it has got some momentum but, I do think that trans people should be as 'defensive' as they can be and try hard not to get themselves into situations like this to start with. Actually, I don't know how satisfying a longer term relationship can be if you are not open and honest about this, if the person reacts badly to it then they are probably not someone you should be with in the first place.

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I agree with your first paragraph. Any violence in these situations is fueled by intense insecurity, nothing more. There is no threat and no danger of which to defend. The only reason for violence in those cases would be, as you said, insecurity and a fragile ego.

The goal of the transsexual is to blend in. Also, the goal of the transsexual is to not be discriminated against, as this is very common. Therefore, most trans folks will not disclose that they are trans at all. In fact, it is illegal for someone else to "out" them at their place of employment, for example. But you are also correct about the dangers, and once someone is aiming to be in a long term relationship with someone, telling them is key... as it would be key to tell someone about anything that could be a deal breaker in a relationship, such as no wanting kids, not wanting to get married, having some sort of terminal illness, etc...

CaptainCourtesy said:

I agree with your first paragraph. Any violence in these situations is fueled by intense insecurity, nothing more. There is no threat and no danger of which to defend. The only reason for violence in those cases would be, as you said, insecurity and a fragile ego.

The goal of the transsexual is to blend in. Also, the goal of the transsexual is to not be discriminated against, as this is very common. Therefore, most trans folks will not disclose that they are trans at all. In fact, it is illegal for someone else to "out" them at their place of employment, for example. But you are also correct about the dangers, and once someone is aiming to be in a long term relationship with someone, telling them is key... as it would be key to tell someone about anything that could be a deal breaker in a relationship, such as no wanting kids, not wanting to get married, having some sort of terminal illness, etc...

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I think that we are agreeing but, in slightly different ways. To be clearer and, only in my opinion, for trans people 'blending in' is ultimately being consistently identified as the gender that they present as; it is an imperative for them to be 'normal' as that gender.

William Rea said:

I think that we are agreeing but, in slightly different ways. To be clearer and, only in my opinion, for trans people 'blending in' is ultimately being consistently identified as the gender that they present as; it is an imperative for them to be 'normal' as that gender.

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Yes, we agree on that point.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Firstly, most are in dangerous situations because they are transsexual and there are people who seem to want to assault transsexuals when they find out. Secondly, unless a transsexual is getting involved in a serious relationship, there is absolutely NO reason for them to reveal that they are trans. And lastly, the other person's anger is irrelevant. They have no right to be assaultive... unless you believe that if a woman flirts with a man but then refuses to have sex with him, it's OK for him to assault and/or rape her, because you're saying the same thing.

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No it isn't the same thing they are completely different but you don't see it that way. You think they really are women.
That is the difference most people know for a fact they are not women.

The reaction is out of fraud. because usually nothing is said until something serious has developed or has happened.
They for them seem to think that someone should just accept it after that person has been deceived on false pretenses.

YOu are wrong they should be up front and honest at the start.

William Rea said:

I think that the threats and actual carrying out of this kind of 'payback' violence are fueled by fragile ego and insecurity; if your response to making an honest error of judgement is threats or violence then you have deep problems. If you suspect that someone is trans but, go along with it and then have post relationship guilt issues and your response to that is threats and violence then you have deep problems.

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It has nothing to do with fragil ego and insecurity. It has everything to do with their emotions being played with. There was no honest error in judgement. they were frauded into a relationship based on a lie.

For many trans people it is very important, if not imperative, for them to be identified as the gender that they present as so the temptation to be flattered by that kind of attention can be overwhelming. It is very difficult to burst that bubble once it has got some momentum but, I do think that trans people should be as 'defensive' as they can be and try hard not to get themselves into situations like this to start with. Actually, I don't know how satisfying a longer term relationship can be if you are not open and honest about this, if the person reacts badly to it then they are probably not someone you should be with in the first place.

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If they were up front and honest then they the relationship would never start to begin with.

William Rea said:

I think that the threats and actual carrying out of this kind of 'payback' violence are fueled by fragile ego and insecurity; if your response to making an honest error of judgement is threats or violence then you have deep problems. If you suspect that someone is trans but, go along with it and then have post relationship guilt issues and your response to that is threats and violence then you have deep problems.

For many trans people it is very important, if not imperative, for them to be identified as the gender that they present as so the temptation to be flattered by that kind of attention can be overwhelming. It is very difficult to burst that bubble once it has got some momentum but, I do think that trans people should be as 'defensive' as they can be and try hard not to get themselves into situations like this to start with. Actually, I don't know how satisfying a longer term relationship can be if you are not open and honest about this, if the person reacts badly to it then they are probably not someone you should be with in the first place.

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CaptainCourtesy said:

I agree with your first paragraph. Any violence in these situations is fueled by intense insecurity, nothing more. There is no threat and no danger of which to defend. The only reason for violence in those cases would be, as you said, insecurity and a fragile ego.

The goal of the transsexual is to blend in. Also, the goal of the transsexual is to not be discriminated against, as this is very common. Therefore, most trans folks will not disclose that they are trans at all. In fact, it is illegal for someone else to "out" them at their place of employment, for example. But you are also correct about the dangers, and once someone is aiming to be in a long term relationship with someone, telling them is key... as it would be key to tell someone about anything that could be a deal breaker in a relationship, such as no wanting kids, not wanting to get married, having some sort of terminal illness, etc...

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Good points are made in both of these posts. They certainly reminded me of something that bothered me about this issue when it first came up.

Let's go real world here. A guy is in a bar and he approaches someone who happens to be Trans. Why is it on the Trans to educate the approaching person on the fact that they are Trans? Maybe the suitor is in fact oblivious to the fact that he or she is hitting on a trans, or maybe that was his/her intent all along. I don't think it's reasonable to demand that the transgender person stop the flow of conversation, hold up his or her hand, and say, "Yo, you do know I am transgender, Right?"

Wtf? That's nuts. IMO, it's all buyer beware out there, especially early on in the relationship. If the person truly had no idea, they'll find out soon enough, especially if the trans is pre-op. :lol:

Now, if you're a few months into a relationship, and you are post-op, it may be valuable to start addressing the trans issue and the limitations which being such a person brings to any long term relationship. But, that is a totally different ball game.

ludin said:

It has nothing to do with fragil ego and insecurity. It has everything to do with their emotions being played with. There was no honest error in judgement. they were frauded into a relationship based on a lie.



If they were up front and honest then they the relationship would never start to begin with.

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lol...if the average guy buying a woman in the bar a drink was up front and honest, the relationship probably would never start to begin with. "Hey, before you accept this, you should know I just want to **** your brains out or, better yet, receive oral sex tonight, but most likely I will never call you again. You cool with that, babe?"

calamity said:

lol...if the average guy buying a woman in the bar a drink was up front and honest, the relationship would never start to begin with.

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that is up to them and they have a choice whether or not to start.
unless you are claiming that almost all one night stand are rape?

which I don't think you are, but that is a different discussion.

ludin said:

that is up to them and they have a choice whether or not to start.
unless you are claiming that almost all one night stand are rape?

which I don't think you are, but that is a different discussion.

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Is the man obligated to tell the woman that is all he wants, a one night stand, the second he introduces himself? "Hi, I'm Jack. I only bought you that because I think you are hot. Before you accept it though, you should know I'm looking to hook up with you for a quick romp in the sack and then hope to never see you again."

How is that different from demanding the woman who accepts the drink saying what's on her mind? "Before I accept your drink, you should know I'm a lesbian." Or better yet, "I know I'm hot, but are you so drunk that you can't you tell I'm transgender--or is that your thing?"

When people meet randomly in so-called real life of course a TG has no obligation to reveal their TG status. Initially.

But, for some reason I was thinking meeting via internet dating sites, solely, not hooking up in person and at random. Since the purpose of a dating site is specifically for dating and/or a relationship, then I do feel it is incumbent on a TG to be up front as soon as reasonably possible. You can feel that's not a big thing, or shouldn't be a big thing, but it is a big thing to a great many people.

Kind of the same in person. "Hi, I'm Dave." - "Hi, I'm Jill and I'm a TG." would be absurd, of course. But if it starts taking a turn toward romance, whether a month later or later that night, the other person should know.

radcen said:

When people meet randomly in so-called real life of course a TG has no obligation to reveal their TG status. Initially.

But, for some reason I was thinking meeting via internet dating sites, solely, not hooking up in person and at random. Since the purpose of a dating site is specifically for dating and/or a relationship, then I do feel it is incumbent on a TG to be up front as soon as reasonably possible. You can feel that's not a big thing, or shouldn't be a big thing, but it is a big thing to a great many people.

Kind of the same in person. "Hi, I'm Dave." - "Hi, I'm Jill and I'm a TG." would be absurd, of course. But if it starts taking a turn toward romance, whether a month later or later that night, the other person should know.

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Dating sites are rife with misinformation, as would be meeting anyone online. Catfishing is highly popular in social media. And, rare is a profile on a dating site which is true to form--hell, you're lucky if you get a real picture.

My thought though on the TG met in a bar thing though is. Why is it in incumbent on the trans person to disclose what should be observed by the other party? Maybe the other party knows the person is trans but would like to continue with the fantasy that they are not. Or maybe, the whole idea is to find a trans, but "let's not talk about it. Ok?"

Personally, I believe no obligation for full disclosure of any kind is required on a first meet. Perhaps, the one exception would be to make mention of the stalking ex who might be waiting out in the parking lot with a gun. But, even that is iffy.

calamity said:

Dating sites are rife with misinformation, as would be meeting anyone online. Catfishing is highly popular in social media. And, rare is a profile on a dating site which is true to form--hell, you're lucky if you get a real picture.

My thought though on the TG met in a bar thing though is. Why is it in incumbent on the trans person to disclose what should be observed by the other party? Maybe the other party knows the person is trans but would like to continue with the fantasy that they are not. Or maybe, the whole idea is to find a trans, but "let's not talk about it. Ok?"

Personally, I believe no obligation for full disclosure of any kind is required on a first meet. Perhaps, the one exception would be to make mention of the stalking ex who might be waiting out in the parking lot with a gun. But, even that is iffy.

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If you just meet somebody, and you know that the person you just met has a good chance of being shot or beat up if you leave the bar with them, and you don't warn them, then you are simply a crappy person.

radcen said:

If you just meet somebody, and you know that the person you just met has a good chance of being shot or beat up if you leave the bar with them, and you don't warn them, then you are simply a crappy person.

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lol...that's obvious. But, rarely is it that clear cut.

I remember an instance which happened to me in 1986 that I still shake my head over. I'm on a first date with someone I think I will like a whole lot. We leave her house and start heading to the restaurant. About 5 miles into the journey, she says, "Pull over. My ex boyfriend is following behind us."

The amazing thing is that it was dark, and she was riding in the passenger's seat. How she even saw him is still a mystery to me. Obviously she had a feeling this would happen :shock:

Well, no harm done because she gets out, walks up to his car and starts bitching him out. He leaves. Of course, this was back before the thought of people being shot by such nut jobs was up front on the radar.

Long story short, no one knows that someone is out there with a gun. They only know that those headlights following behind them probably belong to their ex boyfriend's car.

ludin said:

No it isn't the same thing they are completely different but you don't see it that way. You think they really are women.
That is the difference most people know for a fact they are not women.

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In as far as my example of the use of violence, they are identical. There is no danger, no self-defense indicated. Therefore, in both situations, violence is both unnecessary and unacceptable.

The reaction is out of fraud. because usually nothing is said until something serious has developed or has happened.
They for them seem to think that someone should just accept it after that person has been deceived on false pretenses.

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I never said they should just accept it. That's YOUR strawman. But violence is always an inappropriate response.

YOu are wrong they should be up front and honest at the start.

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If it's just "hanging out" I see no reason. If it starts to get physical and/or serious, sure. Same as if someone is married.

ludin said:

It has nothing to do with fragil ego and insecurity. It has everything to do with their emotions being played with. There was no honest error in judgement. they were frauded into a relationship based on a lie.

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When it comes to violence in those situations, of course it's about insecurity and fragile ego. Don't like the situation? Tell the person you don't like it or them and WALK AWAY. That simple.

If they were up front and honest then they the relationship would never start to begin with.

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My guess is, probably, which is why when a relationship seems imminent, disclosing is important. But as I said, the transsexual has to be careful about this.

CaptainCourtesy said:

If it's just "hanging out" I see no reason. If it starts to get physical and/or serious, sure. Same as if someone is married.

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To tag onto this: the first few dates are not about developing a relationship per se', but to establish whether or not one wants to continue in hopes of developing a more intimate relationship. If, after a couple of dates, either party decides that it is not wothe the effort to continue, then they go their separate way. They are not splitting up since a few date does not constitute "dating" in most people's view (yes there are some that even one date means they're dating another). Further dating may then reveal whether or not a more long term commitment is desired.

Now if you make it past the first few dates and you decide to begin dating regularly (which in this day and age can often include sex), that is an appropriate time to note if you are trans, or anything else that might put a crashing halt. But before that, no there is no right to know (again, unless you are starting a physical relationship on the first date) something of that nature.

CaptainCourtesy said:

In as far as my example of the use of violence, they are identical. There is no danger, no self-defense indicated. Therefore, in both situations, violence is both unnecessary and unacceptable.



I never said they should just accept it. That's YOUR strawman. But violence is always an inappropriate response.



If it's just "hanging out" I see no reason. If it starts to get physical and/or serious, sure. Same as if someone is married.

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Yep violence except in self defense is never correct, However when most violence more so murder is done it is a crime of passion in
Most cases this goes for any type of relationship.

CaptainCourtesy said:

1) If you killed them, you would go to jail... and would deserve to completely and fully.
2) Just because YOU want to know does not mean that everyone wants or needs to know, immediately. So, here's what you should do, Henrin. From now on, whenever YOU go on a date, the first thing you should ask the woman is if she is a transsexual. If she is, then end the date and feel proud of yourself that dodged whatever bullet you are fearful of dodging.
3) Not everyone cares. Lots of people do, but not everyone. Again, to be safe, whenever you date someone, Henrin, ask them upfront.

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makes my point. Not everyone is comfortable sharing such a revelation on a first date. It is not like mentioning, in passing, oh I am not really a blonde. What's more, what are the expectations on a first date?
If you want to meet to marry, or have sex, as soon as possible, perhaps you should come up with a questionaire to sort out qualified candidates.
I think you can go on a date without much expectations, see where it goes, seek friendship first.
Once you establish trust, you share intimate details. That doesn't mean wait until you are engaged, but wait until you get to know the person well enough. If the other person isn't interested, perhaps you can remain friends. If not...not all dates work out anyways.