• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Non-binary gender identities.

CLAX1911 said:
For goodness sake read the goddamned op and then you wouldn't have to ask stupid questions answered in the OP.
Click to expand...

OMG - the whole issue with having AIS is that the male sex organs aren't fully developed and therefore cannot produce sperm!!!

Seriously. You are overtly misinformed on this subject CLAX.

I'm posting bitchy things at you, because this idea, that there only exists males and females, and that gender identity must directly reflect some arbitrary defined criteria -- genetic markers or the presence of sex organs, however well developed or not -- is what has for millennia plagued the LGBT(I) community with misery and violence at the hands of uneducated, intolerant people with zealous unfounded beliefs.

You out of all people should be able to sympathize what it's like to have someone despise you for not fitting into some neatly defined box that which you have/had no control over.
 
brothern said:
OMG - the whole issue with having AIS is that the male sex organs aren't fully developed and therefore cannot produce sperm!!!
Click to expand...
That still doesn't blur the lines of gender.

Seriously. You are overtly misinformed on this subject CLAX.
Click to expand...
Because I go by the science of biology?

I'm posting bitchy things at you, because this idea, that there only exists males and females, and that gender identity must directly reflect some arbitrary defined criteria -- genetic markers or the presence of sex organs, however well developed or not -- is what has for millennia plagued the LGBT(I) community with misery and violence at the hands of uneducated, intolerant people with zealous unfounded beliefs.
Click to expand...
As of yet nobody has presented a third gender. Also Biology informs gender. There are exceptions and we should make those exceptions.


You out of all people should be able to sympathize what it's like to have someone despise you for not fitting into some neatly defined box that which you have/had no control over.
Click to expand...
Where did you ever get the idea that I don't? I haven't once said that anybody should be despised. I'm just stating that I don't buy the existence of non binary genders because I haven't been presented with any evidence that they exist.

That isn't hatred, it isn't the despising people that claim to be non binary. If I doubt that God exists is that hatred and despising of people that claim that he does?

What is the difference?
 
brothern said:
OMG - the whole issue with having AIS
Click to expand...
Having AIS is a medical condition. And the example you posted of a person with AIS identifies as female, a position on the binary paradigm. Further the people that identify as non-binary gender likely aren't afflicted by AIS. They are just women or men, that made up something to identify as so they can claim to be transgender without really being transgender.
 
Old world meets new. This scene from the Sopranos sums it up the best.

 
CLAX1911 said:
My position is that gender is an expression of sex.
Click to expand...

And my position is that gender is an entirely cultural artifact that assigns characteristics and/or traits to each biological sex. These characteristics are not consistent over time or across cultures and therefore, in my opinion, lack any real meaning or usefulness.
 
pinqy said:
And my position is that gender is an entirely cultural artifact that assigns characteristics and/or traits to each biological sex.
Click to expand...
I agree to the extent that there is a cultural component to sex but I disagree that it's the entirety of it.

These characteristics are not consistent over time or across cultures and therefore, in my opinion, lack any real meaning or usefulness.
Click to expand...
Well there are characteristics that are relatively consistent though there are exceptions. For one women tend to be more nurturing and protective of children while men tend to be more aggressive and defensive of women. Hence most militaries were largely men and most care givers are largely women.
 
pinqy said:
And my position is that gender is an entirely cultural artifact that assigns characteristics and/or traits to each biological sex. These characteristics are not consistent over time or across cultures and therefore, in my opinion, lack any real meaning or usefulness.
Click to expand...

I think that the problem is we mix up how gender is expressed culturally and the need to express gender as a part of affirming your being.

By that I mean, society has culturally derived a set of sometimes overlapping criteria for expressing masculinity and femininity so, if we want to express our gender we often conform to those criteria in order to affirm ourselves and be affirmed; this might be considered shallow and conformist and no doubt there are people that express gender criteria in order to make a social/political point rather than affirm their gender being but, that is the way it is for some I guess.

Personally, I accept that there is a spectrum of gender being that falls between the binary male and female but, I do not see any point in inventing numerous categories for expressing that so I don't support the non-binary expression thing in general. Perhaps we should wrap it all up into the term, 'bigender' like we do for sexuality and stop all this nonsense!
 
CLAX1911 said:
I agree to the extent that there is a cultural component to sex but I disagree that it's the entirety of it.

Well there are characteristics that are relatively consistent though there are exceptions. For one women tend to be more nurturing and protective of children while men tend to be more aggressive and defensive of women. Hence most militaries were largely men and most care givers are largely women.
Click to expand...

I disagree, there is no cultural component to physical sex at all; gender and physical sex not being absolutely linked is the point.

How much of those characteristics are nature and nurture? I don't know the answer to that but, you cannot deny that men are physically bigger.
 
brothern said:
OMG - the whole issue with having AIS is that the male sex organs aren't fully developed and therefore cannot produce sperm!!!

Seriously. You are overtly misinformed on this subject CLAX.

I'm posting bitchy things at you, because this idea, that there only exists males and females, and that gender identity must directly reflect some arbitrary defined criteria -- genetic markers or the presence of sex organs, however well developed or not -- is what has for millennia plagued the LGBT(I) community with misery and violence at the hands of uneducated, intolerant people with zealous unfounded beliefs.

You out of all people should be able to sympathize what it's like to have someone despise you for not fitting into some neatly defined box that which you have/had no control over.
Click to expand...

Yeah, gay and trans are not the same but the whole of an alliance is the same excuses are used to oppress, and he just cannot get that
 
Sex (not the idiot word 'gender', useful in only a grammatical context) is a question of biology not culture. Throughout the whole of the natural world there are no more than two sexes.
 
William Rea said:
I disagree, there is no cultural component to physical sex at all; gender and physical sex not being absolutely linked is the point.
Click to expand...
I meant that there is a cultural component to gender my apologies. And yes I believe there is a spectrum for gender, but I still think it's linked to sex.

How much of those characteristics are nature and nurture? I don't know the answer to that but, you cannot deny that men are physically bigger.
Click to expand...
I agree, sex is physical. I must have been in a hurry in that response.
 
Sweden said:
Sex (not the idiot word 'gender', useful in only a grammatical context) is a question of biology not culture. Throughout the whole of the natural world there are no more than two sexes.
Click to expand...

The word gender describes sexual expression. It's useful to describe that. Gender does have a cultural component. But I agree that there are only two sexes. But if go farther and say that there are only two genders because of the fact that gender is an expression of sex.
 
chromium said:
Yeah, gay and trans are not the same but the whole of an alliance is the same excuses are used to oppress, and he just cannot get that
Click to expand...

I didn't present any excuses I presented opinions. Me not calling somebody "ze or zer" and not acknowledging their imaginary genders is the only thing that we can call oppression. The culture has licked this bigotry and oppression problem completely. If you have to imagine things that you are oppressed over than there is no oppression.

Now if you want to present proof of a third gender or sex is gladly change my mind. But pointing out a boy with a birth defect doesn't do it.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I meant that there is a cultural component to gender my apologies. And yes I believe there is a spectrum for gender, but I still think it's linked to sex.


I agree, sex is physical. I must have been in a hurry in that response.
Click to expand...

No problem :)
 
William Rea said:
I think that the problem is we mix up how gender is expressed culturally and the need to express gender as a part of affirming your being.
Click to expand...
But does "gender" have any meaning outside of a cultural context? Is "expressing gender" anything other than how one conforms to societal definitions and norms? I don't see it.

By that I mean, society has culturally derived a set of sometimes overlapping criteria for expressing masculinity and femininity so, if we want to express our gender we often conform to those criteria in order to affirm ourselves and be affirmed; this might be considered shallow and conformist and no doubt there are people that express gender criteria in order to make a social/political point rather than affirm their gender being but, that is the way it is for some I guess.
Click to expand...
But what is masculinity or femininity except how they are measured/determined by the cultural context?

Personally, I accept that there is a spectrum of gender being that falls between the binary male and female but, I do not see any point in inventing numerous categories for expressing that so I don't support the non-binary expression thing in general. Perhaps we should wrap it all up into the term, 'bigender' like we do for sexuality and stop all this nonsense!
Click to expand...
Well, I agree that there is a spectrum of personality that falls between the (arbitrary societal definitions of) male and female. And I don't see any point in inventing numerous categories either.
 
pinqy said:
But does "gender" have any meaning outside of a cultural context? Is "expressing gender" anything other than how one conforms to societal definitions and norms? I don't see it.

But what is masculinity or femininity except how they are measured/determined by the cultural context?


Well, I agree that there is a spectrum of personality that falls between the (arbitrary societal definitions of) male and female. And I don't see any point in inventing numerous categories either.
Click to expand...

I'm no expert pinqy so I am only answering this as a personal opinion, I'm guessing CC will have all the right terminology and analysis. I will try to be clearer but, I'm struggling :) maybe try it this way.

We have an innate gender that is a description of how we identify ourselves and it is probably linked to a combination of our physical and mental sex and our personality. I will not go into how that comes about, not my field but, I guess it may be one of those nature/nurture things. That is what I describe as our 'gender being'.

How we express that 'gender being' is I suspect a fairly straightforward need for affirmation so, if you wear pink dresses and nice make up then the feedback you will get within our culture is that you might be pretty, feminine, attractive, cute, submissive etc. So if people treat you the way that you believe that your 'gender being' actually is then that is positive feedback for you. The feedback can also come from your self perception for example, putting on eye liner and mascara can feel amazing when you look in the mirror and feel affirmed by the appearance and, I know that this sounds superficial but, these are visual cues that our mind tells us are aligned with our 'gender being' and it affirms us.

I think that that expression of gender is conditioned by culture but, the 'gender being' is not. I suspect that if wearing string vests and leather shorts was culturally a uniquely female thing to do then you might see a lot of trans people wearing them, it wouldn't change what is their 'gender being' it would just change how it was expressed. By the way, I don't believe that wearing on those items of clothing will have the reverse effect if you have a 'gender being' that simply does not correlate to what they signal. On the other hand they are items of clothing that have become culturally linked to being gay so you often see that uniform at pride marches, sometimes ironically.

So yes, I believe that how gender is expressed is largely a cultural thing but, outside of culture I think that there is a tangible thing called gender and I describe it, perhaps clumsily as 'gender being'.

Again, on all this, I am only talking as a personal opinion.
 
There are two genders...male and female. There are the occasional medical anomalies...but those are rare. What cannot be denied is that for whatever reason there are people that 'feel' different from what they 'are'. It cant be denied and I see no good reason why it should be denied. If you are a man that was born a man but really really really FEEL like a woman, then you should find peace in accepting that you are a man...that for some reason really really really FEELS like a woman. And then live your life joyously accordingly.

We can accept your preference of identity. Hell...I dont have to live your life. Call yourself a rainbow farting unicorn for all I care. I'll throw you a carrot every now and then. But as soon as we cross the bridge from what you are to what you FEEEEEL you are...**** starts to get really really crazy and not a little bit destructive. And look...there is no standard. Its ridiculous. NYC recognizes 31 identified gender types. New Zealand recognizes 33. Many social media sites accept anywhere from 58 to 64 gender types. the UK has a list of 71. And thats just within the species. Then we have trans-species individuals that really really rally really believe they are different types of animals. Trans abled people believe they were really really really meant to be born with a disability. Trans racial people really really really believe they were meant to be born black or Indian, or any number of other races even though they and their parents remain the whitest people you will ever know. And as a result of this movement to validate feeeeelings we have people performing acts of self mutilation out of loathing for their current body/state.

We arent helping people...we are killing them.

Accept who you are. Accept how you feel. Live your life. Dont try and convince others and dont demand others conform to your belief in order for you to be happy. This whole life gig is truly not as complicated as we keep making it.
 
William Rea said:
I'm no expert pinqy so I am only answering this as a personal opinion, I'm guessing CC will have all the right terminology and analysis. I will try to be clearer but, I'm struggling :) maybe try it this way.
Click to expand...
I am no expert either.

We have an innate gender that is a description of how we identify ourselves and it is probably linked to a combination of our physical and mental sex and our personality. I will not go into how that comes about, not my field but, I guess it may be one of those nature/nurture things. That is what I describe as our 'gender being'.
Click to expand...
I am not convinced that such a thing exists. I believe that "gender identity" is simply people's attempts to match their personality with culturally-defined concepts of masculine and feminine.

How we express that 'gender being' is I suspect a fairly straightforward need for affirmation so, if you wear pink dresses and nice make up then the feedback you will get within our culture is that you might be pretty, feminine, attractive, cute, submissive etc. So if people treat you the way that you believe that your 'gender being' actually is then that is positive feedback for you. The feedback can also come from your self perception for example, putting on eye liner and mascara can feel amazing when you look in the mirror and feel affirmed by the appearance and, I know that this sounds superficial but, these are visual cues that our mind tells us are aligned with our 'gender being' and it affirms us.
Click to expand...
But like you say, the feedback is from the culture. A few years ago, the Smithsonian ran an article When Did Girls Start Wearing Pink, which notes: "...a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”
And below is a picture of Franklin Roosevelt in 1884 in what was then considered completely appropriate attire for a young boy
pink-and-blue-Franklin-Roosevelt-2.jpg

So is there any inherent gender identity, or is it only feedback from the culture at the time?

So yes, I believe that how gender is expressed is largely a cultural thing but, outside of culture I think that there is a tangible thing called gender and I describe it, perhaps clumsily as 'gender being'.
Click to expand...
But what would that thing actually be?
 
pinqy said:
I am no expert either.

I am not convinced that such a thing exists. I believe that "gender identity" is simply people's attempts to match their personality with culturally-defined concepts of masculine and feminine.


But like you say, the feedback is from the culture. A few years ago, the Smithsonian ran an article When Did Girls Start Wearing Pink, which notes: "...a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”
And below is a picture of Franklin Roosevelt in 1884 in what was then considered completely appropriate attire for a young boy
View attachment 67217032

So is there any inherent gender identity, or is it only feedback from the culture at the time?

But what would that thing actually be?
Click to expand...
Reading your comments we appear to be in violent agreement. I don't know how else to explain it.
 
pinqy said:
But does "gender" have any meaning outside of a cultural context? Is "expressing gender" anything other than how one conforms to societal definitions and norms? I don't see it.
Click to expand...
Well, I would think there is a biological component to gender. There is definitely a cultural component so I agree with that. Females do have some behavioral characteristics that are instinctual and biological. This would be expressing gender, though it may not be expressed consciously.

But what is masculinity or femininity except how they are measured/determined by the cultural context?
Click to expand...
I would say masculinity and femininity ate not gender but one aspect of it.


Well, I agree that there is a spectrum of personality that falls between the (arbitrary societal definitions of) male and female. And I don't see any point in inventing numerous categories either.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say personality is gender, though gender may effect personality.
 
pinqy said:
I am no expert either.

I am not convinced that such a thing exists. I believe that "gender identity" is simply people's attempts to match their personality with culturally-defined concepts of masculine and feminine.
Click to expand...
Well that's exactly what gender identity is. But gender is not gender identity.


But like you say, the feedback is from the culture. A few years ago, the Smithsonian ran an article When Did Girls Start Wearing Pink, which notes: "...a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”
And below is a picture of Franklin Roosevelt in 1884 in what was then considered completely appropriate attire for a young boy
View attachment 67217032

So is there any inherent gender identity, or is it only feedback from the culture at the time?
Click to expand...
Attire? Of course that is culturally driven but that isn't gender. Gender is how sex is expressed.

Could you tell the difference between a woman and a man if they had the same haircut, build, lack of facial hair and were wearing the same clothing? Could you tell the difference between a woman and a man by how they behave or talk to you if they were dressed the same and had the same hair cut?

Clothes, makeup, hair styles, and other things like that are absolutely cultural. But they aren't what makes a man a man or a woman a woman.

But what would that thing actually be?
Click to expand...
It would be the difference between a man and a woman. Think about it this way. Take a species that has no culture. Dogs. Do female and male dogs behave differently?
 
CLAX1911 said:
Well that's exactly what gender identity is. But gender is not gender identity.


Attire? Of course that is culturally driven but that isn't gender. Gender is how sex is expressed.

Could you tell the difference between a woman and a man if they had the same haircut, build, lack of facial hair and were wearing the same clothing? Could you tell the difference between a woman and a man by how they behave or talk to you if they were dressed the same and had the same hair cut?

Clothes, makeup, hair styles, and other things like that are absolutely cultural. But they aren't what makes a man a man or a woman a woman.

It would be the difference between a man and a woman. Think about it this way. Take a species that has no culture. Dogs. Do female and male dogs behave differently?
Click to expand...

Yes...
 
CLAX1911 said:
Are you saying yes in agreement with me or are you saying that you can tell a woman from a man without cultural clues and hoping I explain?
Click to expand...

Oh, sorry...I was saying yes, female and male dogs behave differently....very much so.
 
There is male, female, and screwed up.......

Sent from my SM-G920R4 using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom