How prevalent is workplace sexual harassment?

And in what forms does it commonly occur?

Alisyn Camerota was, according to her, told by Roger Ailes that if she wanted to get ahead they'd need work together off site, like in a hotel.

“I would have to work with you really closely and it may require us getting to know each other better, and that might have to happen away from here, and it might have to happen at a hotel – do you know what I’m saying?”

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https://www.yahoo.com/tv/ex-fox-anchor-alisyn-camerota-160115352.html

Bill O'Reilly apparently made unwanted sexual advances.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-explosive-new-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-bill-oreilly-detailed-532232faca58

Sean Hannity seems to have asked a woman back to his hotel room
Ex-Fox News contributor accuses Sean Hannity of sexual harassment - NY Daily News

So, with the Camerota thing, if it's true that's pretty bad but, in my experience, it's also uncommon.

The other two are things I've seen quite a bit and, truth be told, it's not just guys doing it. Maybe it's inappropriate behavior but I'm not so sure it's harassment unless there's more to the story. I mean, if it's being presented as a quid pro quo associated with a raise or a promotion it's certainly harassment. If, however, it's just "office talk" that's a different story in my book.

Here's an example from a bunch of years ago. A guy I knew was in the interview process with a large financial services firm. They flew him with a group to an orientation kind of thing that was still pre-hire. In the process the HR department set up a deal where a well endowed, scantily dressed woman presided over a mock meeting. She included lite sexual innuendo in her presentation. The guy I knew chimed in with his own, equally lite comment. An hour later he was signing papers in HR and handed his ticket home. No job for him.

Now, in the professional world, I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff from both men and women that I took as just good-natured camaraderie...until someone decided to take it seriously.

First, is sexual harassment common in the workplace?
Second, is it uncommon for a comment that gets a pass on Tuesday to become a problem when repeated on Thursday and, in such a case, is it harassment?
Third, is it reasonable that someone should lose their job simply for coming on to a coworker? Is simply coming on to a coworker sexual harassment?

Lutherf said:

Here's an example from a bunch of years ago. A guy I knew was in the interview process with a large financial services firm. They flew him with a group to an orientation kind of thing that was still pre-hire. In the process the HR department set up a deal where a well endowed, scantily dressed woman presided over a mock meeting. She included lite sexual innuendo in her presentation. The guy I knew chimed in with his own, equally lite comment. An hour later he was signing papers in HR and handed his ticket home. No job for him.

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Reacted inappropriately. One must maintain professionalism regardless of the action of others. There's no being lured into inappropriate behavior just as there's no being lured into committing a crime.

Now, in the professional world, I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff from both men and women that I took as just good-natured camaraderie...until someone decided to take it seriously.

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I'm not sure people "decide" to take something seriously. When something is inappropriate in the workplace, it should be taken seriously - naturally.

First, is sexual harassment common in the workplace?
Second, is it uncommon for a comment that gets a pass on Tuesday to become a problem when repeated on Thursday and, in such a case, is it harassment?
Third, is it reasonable that someone should lose their job simply for coming on to a coworker? Is simply coming on to a coworker sexual harassment?

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It's very common, but usually to an extent that does not trigger an official response.
It was harassment both days, it slide once. Letting something slide is not consent to be harassed or witness harassment.
Yes.


Now let me tell a fun interview story:

A guy in my company (army, not business) was in the process of going SF. He was already ranger tabbed. He'd passed the initial SF stuff and then got through selection. All that remained was the psych eval, and he'd be assigned an MOS (13b, c, etc) and go off to SF training. During the psych eval he is given this scenario: "you are on a rooftop sniper position and told to shoot the next person that walks through the door across the street. The door opens, and your mother walks out. What do you do."

Now, I presume the correct answer is something like "that can't be, it must be a trick by the enemy, I ignore the impossibility and fire". But this guy answers: "I blow that ****ing bitch's head off". No job for him.

At Fox News it's apparently extremely, extremely common. Seems like a network of pathetic men who couldn't get laid even being rich. I suspect it's a huge turnoff for women to be with a guy who is constantly fellating an orange, obese sex offender on live tv.

ecofarm said:

Now let me tell a fun interview story:

A guy in my company (army, not business) was in the process of going SF. He was already ranger tabbed. He'd passed the initial SF stuff and then got through selection. All that remained was the psych eval, and he'd be assigned an MOS (13b, c, etc) and go off to SF training. During the psych eval he is given this scenario: "you are on a rooftop sniper position and told to shoot the next person that walks through the door across the street. The door opens, and your mother walks out. What do you do."

Now, I presume the correct answer is something like "that can't be, it must be a trick by the enemy, I ignore the impossibility and fire". But this guy answers: "I blow that ****ing bitch's head off". No job for him.

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More likely then not he was abused by his mother -- so his answer may be appropriate. I was never abused but I know people who were.

SCitizen said:

More likely then not he was abused by his mother -- so his answer may be appropriate. I was never abused but I know people who were.

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SF doesn't want people with mother problems. Those are generally, at least potentially, transferred to all women.

Lutherf said:

And in what forms does it commonly occur?

Alisyn Camerota was, according to her, told by Roger Ailes that if she wanted to get ahead they'd need work together off site, like in a hotel.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/ex-fox-anchor-alisyn-camerota-160115352.html

Bill O'Reilly apparently made unwanted sexual advances.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-explosive-new-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-bill-oreilly-detailed-532232faca58

Sean Hannity seems to have asked a woman back to his hotel room
Ex-Fox News contributor accuses Sean Hannity of sexual harassment - NY Daily News

So, with the Camerota thing, if it's true that's pretty bad but, in my experience, it's also uncommon.

The other two are things I've seen quite a bit and, truth be told, it's not just guys doing it. Maybe it's inappropriate behavior but I'm not so sure it's harassment unless there's more to the story. I mean, if it's being presented as a quid pro quo associated with a raise or a promotion it's certainly harassment. If, however, it's just "office talk" that's a different story in my book.

Here's an example from a bunch of years ago. A guy I knew was in the interview process with a large financial services firm. They flew him with a group to an orientation kind of thing that was still pre-hire. In the process the HR department set up a deal where a well endowed, scantily dressed woman presided over a mock meeting. She included lite sexual innuendo in her presentation. The guy I knew chimed in with his own, equally lite comment. An hour later he was signing papers in HR and handed his ticket home. No job for him.

Now, in the professional world, I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff from both men and women that I took as just good-natured camaraderie...until someone decided to take it seriously.

First, is sexual harassment common in the workplace?
Second, is it uncommon for a comment that gets a pass on Tuesday to become a problem when repeated on Thursday and, in such a case, is it harassment?
Third, is it reasonable that someone should lose their job simply for coming on to a coworker? Is simply coming on to a coworker sexual harassment?

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If your company pulled that on me I would've sued them. I'm amazed they haven't been over this tactic. It at least is something they'd spend some time and money litigating

ecofarm said:

SF doesn't want people with mother problems. Those are generally, at least potentially, transferred to all women.

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I guess so -- SF stands for Special forces?

But Eminem became a genius partly because of these issues.

SCitizen said:

I guess so -- SF stands for Special forces?

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Yes (green beret). Working with very little supervision, if any, in highly volatile situations, it's not good if someone has a potential emotional trigger as significant as mother problems.

But Eminem became a genius partly because of these issues.

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One is born a genius. I presume he would have been on about something else if his life was different. Though perhaps intense rage was a key motivation to his expression of his genius.

EMNofSeattle said:

If your company pulled that on me I would've sued them. I'm amazed they haven't been over this tactic. It at least is something they'd spend some time and money litigating

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It's a simple test to see if someone will act inappropriately as a result of others doing so. A professional acts appropriately regardless of the actions of others.

ecofarm said:

It's a simple test to see if someone will act inappropriately as a result of others doing so. A professional acts appropriately regardless of the actions of others.

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But by their own standard they subjected the applicant to sexual harassment as part of the hiring process

EMNofSeattle said:

But by their own standard they subjected the applicant to sexual harassment as part of the hiring process

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I figure they kept it minor enough so as not to be actionable but significant enough that the applicant's ability to remain professional could be ascertained.

ecofarm said:

I figure they kept it minor enough so as not to be actionable but significant enough that the applicant's ability to remain professional could be ascertained.

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Then denied him employment after victimizing him by their own supposed standard

I would make them justify that before a judge. It probably would at least cost them

I figure it didn't happen, at least not as told. Because somebody would challenge that

EMNofSeattle said:

Then denied him employment after victimizing him by their own supposed standard

I would make them justify that before a judge. It probably would at least cost them

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Let's figure:

1. Her actions were not of an actionable level. It was not sexual harassment.
2. His response was not of an actionable level. It was not sexual harassment.
3. His response was evidence that he could not be counted on to remain professional regardless of the actions of others.

The exercise need not rise to the level of harassment in order to ascertain his level of professionalism. If he had objected to her behavior (or at least did not engage in the same), he would probably have been hired.

ecofarm said:

Let's figure:

1. Her actions were not of an actionable level. It was not sexual harassment.
2. His response was not of an actionable level. It was not sexual harassment.
3. His response was evidence that he could not be counted on to remain professional regardless of the actions of others.

The exercise need not rise to the level of harassment in order to ascertain his level of professionalism. If he had objected to her behavior (or at least did not engage in the same), he would probably have been hired.

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Or he felt his only oppurtunity to get in was to get in with the culture, he either accepted these unwanted advances or didn't get hired, suddenly it is now actionable, or at least it will be costing mucho $$$ before they get a ruling establishing it as non actionable

EMNofSeattle said:

Or he felt his only oppurtunity to get in was to get in with the culture, he either accepted these unwanted advances or didn't get hired, suddenly it is now actionable, or at least it will be costing mucho $$$ before they get a ruling establishing it as non actionable

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It was not sexual harassment. It was not clear advancements. It was a test to see if he would remain professional. He did not.

Think of it like this:

A penny is put on the floor. The applicant sees it. If the applicant picks it up and puts it in their pocket instead of turning it in... is that really stealing? Maybe not really, but it says something about the person.

He was exposed to a situation that was not sexual harassment but was provocative to some extent. The purpose of the exercise was not to see if he would full-on sexually harass someone; he was not accused of sexual harassment. But it says something about his professionalism.

ecofarm said:

It was not sexual harassment. It was not clear advancements. It was a test to see if he would remain professional. He did not.

Think of it like this:

A penny is put on the floor. The applicant sees it. If the applicant picks it up and puts it in their pocket instead of turning it in... is that really stealing? Maybe not really, but it says something about the person.

He was exposed to a situation that was not sexual harassment but was provocative to some extent. The purpose of the exercise was not to see if he would full-on sexually harass someone; he was not accused of sexual harassment. But it says something about his professionalism.

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I reject that either is a valid test.

If a company is going to refuse to hire me because I pocketed a penny (and I always pick up pennies) I want nothing to do with them. You ever see somebody turn in a penny that was on the ground? If anything turning it in means you're a social freak

EMNofSeattle said:

I reject that either is a valid test.

If a company is going to refuse to hire me because I pocketed a penny (and I always pick up pennies) I want nothing to do with them. You ever see somebody turn in a penny that was on the ground? If anything turning it in means you're a social freak

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The point is, no sexual harassment took place. The applicant did, however, act unprofessionally. Clearly, he was not a person that could be counted on to act professionally regardless of the actions of others.

It could be a client, it could be a co-worker. They wanted someone they could count on to remain professional even if someone else did not. He failed.

FWIW, I wouldn't keep any money found at work, even a penny. It's a matter of principle.

Lutherf said:

And in what forms does it commonly occur?

Alisyn Camerota was, according to her, told by Roger Ailes that if she wanted to get ahead they'd need work together off site, like in a hotel.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/ex-fox-anchor-alisyn-camerota-160115352.html

Bill O'Reilly apparently made unwanted sexual advances.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-explosive-new-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-bill-oreilly-detailed-532232faca58

Sean Hannity seems to have asked a woman back to his hotel room
Ex-Fox News contributor accuses Sean Hannity of sexual harassment - NY Daily News

So, with the Camerota thing, if it's true that's pretty bad but, in my experience, it's also uncommon.

The other two are things I've seen quite a bit and, truth be told, it's not just guys doing it. Maybe it's inappropriate behavior but I'm not so sure it's harassment unless there's more to the story. I mean, if it's being presented as a quid pro quo associated with a raise or a promotion it's certainly harassment. If, however, it's just "office talk" that's a different story in my book.

Here's an example from a bunch of years ago. A guy I knew was in the interview process with a large financial services firm. They flew him with a group to an orientation kind of thing that was still pre-hire. In the process the HR department set up a deal where a well endowed, scantily dressed woman presided over a mock meeting. She included lite sexual innuendo in her presentation. The guy I knew chimed in with his own, equally lite comment. An hour later he was signing papers in HR and handed his ticket home. No job for him.

Now, in the professional world, I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff from both men and women that I took as just good-natured camaraderie...until someone decided to take it seriously.

First, is sexual harassment common in the workplace?
Second, is it uncommon for a comment that gets a pass on Tuesday to become a problem when repeated on Thursday and, in such a case, is it harassment?
Third, is it reasonable that someone should lose their job simply for coming on to a coworker? Is simply coming on to a coworker sexual harassment?

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I have experienced it. If it is from another coworker, the sensible woman tells them flat out to bug off. If it's the boss, you quit and go work somewhere else. But I don't consider the normal social banter that goes in the work place to be sexual harrassment and I can't imagine being so thin skinned as to get my nose out of joint if somebody compliments my outfit or teases a bit or includes me when telling an off color joke or whatever. When the guys tried to get our goats by putting up scantily clad or nude pin ups, we just dressed them.

But I do think these accusations of rich, famous, powerful men are 99% phony, most especially when almost all appear to be vindictive if somebody doesn't get the contract they wanted or the raise they asked for or whatever. Because hey, if you don't get what you want and can punish the guy for a few million bucks, why not? Makes you an ass if you do it and probably pure poison when it comes to working anywhere else, but with a couple of million or more in you pocket, who cares, right?

On second thought, perhaps they did not reject his application because of his inability to remain professional. Perhaps it was because he was too dumbass to figure out the test.

ecofarm said:

It was not sexual harassment. It was not clear advancements. It was a test to see if he would remain professional. He did not.

Think of it like this:

A penny is put on the floor. The applicant sees it. If the applicant picks it up and puts it in their pocket instead of turning it in... is that really stealing? Maybe not really, but it says something about the person.

He was exposed to a situation that was not sexual harassment but was provocative to some extent. The purpose of the exercise was not to see if he would full-on sexually harass someone; he was not accused of sexual harassment. But it says something about his professionalism.

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One has to wonder. In all the sexual harassment training I have had, it seems that the definition of such is anything that seems sexual in nature to an individual by which they now feel they are working in a hostile environment. Ultimately, sexual harassment can occur to a third party based upon the actions of two other people interacting.

Lutherf said:

<snip>

Here's an example from a bunch of years ago. A guy I knew was in the interview process with a large financial services firm. They flew him with a group to an orientation kind of thing that was still pre-hire. In the process the HR department set up a deal where a well endowed, scantily dressed woman presided over a mock meeting. She included lite sexual innuendo in her presentation. The guy I knew chimed in with his own, equally lite comment. An hour later he was signing papers in HR and handed his ticket home. No job for him.

Now, in the professional world, I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff from both men and women that I took as just good-natured camaraderie...until someone decided to take it seriously.

First, is sexual harassment common in the workplace?

Second, is it uncommon for a comment that gets a pass on Tuesday to become a problem when repeated on Thursday and, in such a case, is it harassment?

Third, is it reasonable that someone should lose their job simply for coming on to a coworker? Is simply coming on to a coworker sexual harassment?

Click to expand...

In the scenario you presented, I think the smart applicant would know he/she was being set up and wouldn't take the bait and/or would figure if this is what this organization is all about, i.e. utilizing entrapment, he/she wouldn't want any part of it.

Is sexual harassment common in the work place? It happened but it didn't used to be common. Yes sometimes the boss came onto his female employees, there was some chasing around the desk, some inappropriate comments and inappropriate touching. But we women dealt with it. Before militant women's lib and artificial expectations were put in place for men and women, if it was unacceptable or intolerable to us--if we felt uncomfortable and that does happen--you quit and go elsewhere to work. You wouldn't want a reputation of being somebody looking for trouble or introducing unnecessary toxic elements into the workplace.

But normal interaction between men and women? We women spend multi-billions every year on fashion, jewelry, hair styles, manicures, cosmetics, perfumes, body toning, etc. for no other reason than we want to be attractive and, if single, sexually appealing. And we are going to be insulted or get our nose out of joint if somebody notices and appreciates it? Seriously?

So the boss promotes the women who are willing to fawn over him, sleep with him, or whatever and those who don't get left behind. Reprehensible? It sure is in my book. But it is his business. I should be able to sue for millions because I feel pressured or insulted or mistreated? I honestly don't see the rationale.

And I think this kind of thing is probably holding women back more than it helps because why would a guy put himself at that kind of risk if he can hire the male applicant he is pretty sure won't be a problem to him?

It use to be very common. Now it's a lot less common, but given the right industry and corporate culture, it's still not that hard to find.

A comment or two here and there, or an infrequent occurrence that is not dramatic, is unlikely to be considered sexual harassment, and would be difficult to pursue legally. If someone flirts and makes an advance, and you rebuff them, and nothing affected work other than the awkwardness, it probably wouldn't be something anyone would get in trouble for. If they had authority over you...its a little more troublesome, but if it was an honest interaction that ended in fairly professionally recourse and no punishment or demotion, etc., again I think it wouldn't be pursued or pursuable.

The thing is, that "light" stuff should be discouraged at all levels of the company to help ensure it never gets out of hand, so that no one feels the company turned a blind eye to it, etc.
Some companies may have zero tolerance, if you date or kiss or anything with a co-worker, you're out. This is a private decision, not related to sexual harassment laws directly.

The biggest differences come in with regards to how you are treated in the workplace. If it's a boss or authority over you, and its always or often accompanied by flirting or talk of sex, it's probably harassment. If it goes over the line and it's quid pro quo (I get this, you get that), or involves any threat to fire, demote, etc., it's harassment. If there is a lot of porn in the office and sex talk all the time...I mean, you could quit, but ultimately that's a hostile work environment (unless you're in that industry I suppose!)

I suspect in Fox's case, it's probably all legit sexual harassment. This is not the first time this has come up, and its all coming out now that from the top, it was normal if not expected, and almost all of this involves positions of power over individuals, and a fair amount of blatant quid pro quo. Claiming it's just about a law suit, is irresponsible.

We need education and awareness, and yes, some high profile examples made, that helps set out the groundwork for good workplace behavior. Fortunately I had good training and avoided a number of potential harassment situations when I was the boss of a few adventurous women who were not shy. For a man in power to reject the advances of attractive women in private...is asking a lot of men (speaking as a man, I'm sure its that way for any gender vs gender). Which is why you adopt at least some basic guidelines like having glass on the doors, no individual man/woman on a business trip (unless you're 100% sure its not even close), and ensure that no one talks sex in the open, and that people who do are corrected (nicely, indirectly) etc. Once aware of it, you can use common sense. But without awareness/training, etc., common sense when a women you like advances on you, is to accept that it's your lucky day.

AlbqOwl said:

And I think this kind of thing is probably holding women back more than it helps because why would a guy put himself at that kind of risk if he can hire the male applicant he is pretty sure won't be a problem to him?

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I think it holds women back in another way, too--and not just as to employment. By portraying women as helpless victims who need the government to protect them against all those mean, icky men, this nonsense makes it easier for some men not to take women seriously--not to view them as independent people who are their equals.

AlbqOwl said:

But normal interaction between men and women? We women spend multi-billions every year on fashion, jewelry, hair styles, manicures, cosmetics, perfumes, body toning, etc. for no other reason than we want to be attractive and, if single, sexually appealing. And we are going to be insulted or get our nose out of joint if somebody notices and appreciates it? Seriously?

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~"She shouldn't have worn that dress".

ecofarm said:

FWIW, I wouldn't keep any money found at work, even a penny. It's a matter of principle.

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so you won't pick up a penny off the cafeteria floor? well then what, It will be swept in the pan and thrown out. I would turn in a 5 or a 20 or a hundred if I found one, a penny? no way. and nobody would, so any employer who uses that as a test is being silly. nobody has ever walked a penny to the lost and found. ever, at least not since you or I have been alive, maybe back in the days of the old pre-decimalized pound sterling when they issued coins of a Farthing someone did....