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How prevalent is workplace sexual harassment?

I once dated a very intelligent woman--a college professor--who despised strident feminists because she felt they had discouraged romantic feelings between men and women. In particular, she thought they had made guys more wary of approaching women they worked with than they used to be, and she didn't like it. I think she had a point--dating people you met at work, and in many cases eventually marrying them, used to be pretty common. And I am sure many women liked the idea. I don't think most normal women want to see men as adversaries or people who are trying to victimize them.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I don't see it quite that way, but if you dress to turn heads and get guys to look at you, it's pretty hard for me to then be offended when you accomplish your goal.
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Apologize for leering, great.
 
ecofarm said:
Waah, waaah! I'm a victim!
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Not exactly. If you're an employee at a place that uses some kind of "sting" method in their hiring it's reasonable to assume that the tactic is part of the culture of the corporation. If it's part of the culture then, as an employee, you would be wise to walk on eggshells every day. For some of us, that would totally suck and, perhaps, be considered a form of harassment.
 
Lutherf said:
Not exactly. If you're an employee at a place that uses some kind of "sting" method in their hiring it's reasonable to assume that the tactic is part of the culture of the corporation. If it's part of the culture then, as an employee, you would be wise to walk on eggshells every day. For some of us, that would totally suck and, perhaps, be considered a form of harassment.
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First, it was in the hiring procedure. Second, there's no reason to walk on eggshells. Just don't sexually harass anyone.

Liquor stores have "stings" all the time. Police send informants to try to buy alcohol under age. If the employee sells, it's a crime. Chain stores do it themselves as well.

There's nothing wrong with a hiring process putting someone in a situation and seeing how they react. The guy had no one to blame but himself. He needs to learn to remain professional even when someone else does not. What happens when a client says something questionable? He's gonna reply in kind? Not acceptable.

The guy was not a victim. He failed to remain professional. "She shouldn't have worn that dress" is not an excuse for anything.

What happened to personal responsibility? "She made me do it!"?
 
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Lutherf said:
And in what forms does it commonly occur?

Alisyn Camerota was, according to her, told by Roger Ailes that if she wanted to get ahead they'd need work together off site, like in a hotel.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/ex-fox-anchor-alisyn-camerota-160115352.html

Bill O'Reilly apparently made unwanted sexual advances.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-explosive-new-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-bill-oreilly-detailed-532232faca58

Sean Hannity seems to have asked a woman back to his hotel room
Ex-Fox News contributor accuses Sean Hannity of sexual harassment - NY Daily News

So, with the Camerota thing, if it's true that's pretty bad but, in my experience, it's also uncommon.

The other two are things I've seen quite a bit and, truth be told, it's not just guys doing it. Maybe it's inappropriate behavior but I'm not so sure it's harassment unless there's more to the story. I mean, if it's being presented as a quid pro quo associated with a raise or a promotion it's certainly harassment. If, however, it's just "office talk" that's a different story in my book.

Here's an example from a bunch of years ago. A guy I knew was in the interview process with a large financial services firm. They flew him with a group to an orientation kind of thing that was still pre-hire. In the process the HR department set up a deal where a well endowed, scantily dressed woman presided over a mock meeting. She included lite sexual innuendo in her presentation. The guy I knew chimed in with his own, equally lite comment. An hour later he was signing papers in HR and handed his ticket home. No job for him.

Now, in the professional world, I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff from both men and women that I took as just good-natured camaraderie...until someone decided to take it seriously.

First, is sexual harassment common in the workplace?
Second, is it uncommon for a comment that gets a pass on Tuesday to become a problem when repeated on Thursday and, in such a case, is it harassment?
Third, is it reasonable that someone should lose their job simply for coming on to a coworker? Is simply coming on to a coworker sexual harassment?
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My female colleague sometimes gets followed home to the train station (or to lunch) by a co-worker. She will then get off 3 or 4 stops early and take a longer bus home so she doesn't have to stay on the train alone with the guy who does it.

She also gets her personal space invaded, plenty of comments (good and bad) on her appearance, as well as a lot of guys staring at her figure instead of her face when they talk to her.

My ex also quit her corporate job in part to do with all of the unwanted male attention that came her way.

I'm not sure if these constitute 'harassment' per se, but it's ****ty to have to deal with and something that I will never need to.
 
Lutherf said:
And in what forms does it commonly occur?

Alisyn Camerota was, according to her, told by Roger Ailes that if she wanted to get ahead they'd need work together off site, like in a hotel.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/ex-fox-anchor-alisyn-camerota-160115352.html

Bill O'Reilly apparently made unwanted sexual advances.
https://thinkprogress.org/the-explosive-new-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-bill-oreilly-detailed-532232faca58

Sean Hannity seems to have asked a woman back to his hotel room
Ex-Fox News contributor accuses Sean Hannity of sexual harassment - NY Daily News

So, with the Camerota thing, if it's true that's pretty bad but, in my experience, it's also uncommon.

The other two are things I've seen quite a bit and, truth be told, it's not just guys doing it. Maybe it's inappropriate behavior but I'm not so sure it's harassment unless there's more to the story. I mean, if it's being presented as a quid pro quo associated with a raise or a promotion it's certainly harassment. If, however, it's just "office talk" that's a different story in my book.

Here's an example from a bunch of years ago. A guy I knew was in the interview process with a large financial services firm. They flew him with a group to an orientation kind of thing that was still pre-hire. In the process the HR department set up a deal where a well endowed, scantily dressed woman presided over a mock meeting. She included lite sexual innuendo in her presentation. The guy I knew chimed in with his own, equally lite comment. An hour later he was signing papers in HR and handed his ticket home. No job for him.

Now, in the professional world, I've seen and heard all kinds of stuff from both men and women that I took as just good-natured camaraderie...until someone decided to take it seriously.

First, is sexual harassment common in the workplace?
Second, is it uncommon for a comment that gets a pass on Tuesday to become a problem when repeated on Thursday and, in such a case, is it harassment?
Third, is it reasonable that someone should lose their job simply for coming on to a coworker? Is simply coming on to a coworker sexual harassment?
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Years ago I was working on a shared computer on the job in a room with 2-3 other desks in it, and at one of them was my boss's. There was a woman who was constantly arguing with me about something in the room bothering me about something when I felt he tickling the back of my neck with her finger. I had just gotten married and I told her to quit, and she laughed and walked away. Noticing my boss staring at me, I said; "What am I supposed to do?" He must have said something to her because it never happened again.
 
Mach said:
It use to be very common. Now it's a lot less common, but given the right industry and corporate culture, it's still not that hard to find.

A comment or two here and there, or an infrequent occurrence that is not dramatic, is unlikely to be considered sexual harassment, and would be difficult to pursue legally. If someone flirts and makes an advance, and you rebuff them, and nothing affected work other than the awkwardness, it probably wouldn't be something anyone would get in trouble for. If they had authority over you...its a little more troublesome, but if it was an honest interaction that ended in fairly professionally recourse and no punishment or demotion, etc., again I think it wouldn't be pursued or pursuable.

The thing is, that "light" stuff should be discouraged at all levels of the company to help ensure it never gets out of hand, so that no one feels the company turned a blind eye to it, etc.
Some companies may have zero tolerance, if you date or kiss or anything with a co-worker, you're out. This is a private decision, not related to sexual harassment laws directly.

The biggest differences come in with regards to how you are treated in the workplace. If it's a boss or authority over you, and its always or often accompanied by flirting or talk of sex, it's probably harassment. If it goes over the line and it's quid pro quo (I get this, you get that), or involves any threat to fire, demote, etc., it's harassment. If there is a lot of porn in the office and sex talk all the time...I mean, you could quit, but ultimately that's a hostile work environment (unless you're in that industry I suppose!)

I suspect in Fox's case, it's probably all legit sexual harassment. This is not the first time this has come up, and its all coming out now that from the top, it was normal if not expected, and almost all of this involves positions of power over individuals, and a fair amount of blatant quid pro quo. Claiming it's just about a law suit, is irresponsible.

We need education and awareness, and yes, some high profile examples made, that helps set out the groundwork for good workplace behavior. Fortunately I had good training and avoided a number of potential harassment situations when I was the boss of a few adventurous women who were not shy. For a man in power to reject the advances of attractive women in private...is asking a lot of men (speaking as a man, I'm sure its that way for any gender vs gender). Which is why you adopt at least some basic guidelines like having glass on the doors, no individual man/woman on a business trip (unless you're 100% sure its not even close), and ensure that no one talks sex in the open, and that people who do are corrected (nicely, indirectly) etc. Once aware of it, you can use common sense. But without awareness/training, etc., common sense when a women you like advances on you, is to accept that it's your lucky day.
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i have a quibble with that portion of your post
your presumption is that something could potentially ignite between a man/woman on a business trip
because of that presumption, one or the other of them is denied participating is an activity which could be beneficial to their career
which would cause me to question whether someone is being discriminated against only because of their gender and not because of their actions
 
ecofarm said:
If I picked it up, I'd give it to the nearest cashier/employee and tell them it was found on the ground. No need to go to the lost and found.

I believe keeping money found at work is stealing. I have principles. If my principles upset you, sorry. Perhaps a safe space is in order.
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yes, i would place it on the nearest horizontal surface, but would not view pocketing a found penny as disqualifying then from employment

but then i have been surprised. Warren Buffett watched prospective employees who ate a meal with him. he would strike from consideration those who salted their plate before tasting the food. his argument was that they were inclined to take an action without knowing the environment they were operating within
 
Lutherf said:
I've had nothing but female staff for the past 15 years and no complaints of harassment though I did have one employee where I was on edge whenever she was around.

I will say that in the past 15 years my behavior around the office has been somewhat modified from how it was. I never chased an employee and never would but I have become MUCH better at reading what's going on and responding in a more appropriate manner.
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agreed

i have become much more aware of what i say, and HOW i say it

and i have always had offices filled with women around me

before they were "my girls" and i never thought anything about saying that....

we were a team, and it was never meant as demeaning or belittling

i dont use that anymore....one of my owners heard me call them that one time, and jumped all over me

he thought it would cause issues.....so i stopped

still think of them as "my girls", just dont use that terminology
 
gdgyva said:
agreed

i have become much more aware of what i say, and HOW i say it

and i have always had offices filled with women around me

before they were "my girls" and i never thought anything about saying that....

we were a team, and it was never meant as demeaning or belittling

i dont use that anymore....one of my owners heard me call them that one time, and jumped all over me

he thought it would cause issues.....so i stopped

still think of them as "my girls", just dont use that terminology
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how many owners do you have
 
At my first professional job, the team lead stated a very clear principle "Don't s**t where you eat". Even if you're single, don't fraternize with the opposite gender. Most people in most places that I have worked in my 30 year career have practiced this.
 
gdgyva said:
agreed

i have become much more aware of what i say, and HOW i say it

and i have always had offices filled with women around me

before they were "my girls" and i never thought anything about saying that....

we were a team, and it was never meant as demeaning or belittling

i dont use that anymore....one of my owners heard me call them that one time, and jumped all over me

he thought it would cause issues.....so i stopped

still think of them as "my girls", just dont use that terminology
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Yep. I made that same change. It never occurred to me that it would be taken as being demeaning. I mean, "girl's night out" is perfectly acceptable....among women but if a guy says it there's the potential for it being taken as disrespect. NEVER would have crossed my mind.
 
Lutherf said:
Yep. I made that same change. It never occurred to me that it would be taken as being demeaning. I mean, "girl's night out" is perfectly acceptable....among women but if a guy says it there's the potential for it being taken as disrespect. NEVER would have crossed my mind.
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for 99.5% of them, i dont think it is

the terms of endearment that we sometimes used, most of them loved it....and never had an issue with it

but there are a few....i have met a couple now....that think it is wrong....and maybe they are right

we are dinosaurs....what used to be okay now isnt

not that we meant anything wrong, or ever tried to show anything but respect for the women that worked their asses off for us

just times changes, and attitudes change about what is and isnt accepted

i am good with it....my staff respects me, and know i am harmless in all those ways
 
justabubba said:
i have a quibble with that portion of your post
your presumption is that something could potentially ignite between a man/woman on a business trip
because of that presumption, one or the other of them is denied participating is an activity which could be beneficial to their career
which would cause me to question whether someone is being discriminated against only because of their gender and not because of their actions
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I knew that would be a quibble to someone, especially after Pence primed the pump so to speak. I thought about removing it but was too lazy, so I guess i can elaborate.

In general, any good manager aware enough about all of these things and responsible enough, can also mitigate such things responsibly so that no one is missing any opportunity. Often times, no one is even aware that anything is out of the ordinary, which is often best since it's potentially embarrassing. Sometimes it may cost a little more, but then good management often may have a slightly higher up front cost for a longer term payoff or risk mitigation. It's the managers job, to ensure everything runs smoothly, is low risk, and benefits the company and its employees (ignoring customers in this situation). It could be you send 3 instead of 2, or you don't do an overnight, or you book separate sleeping arrangements and pay double for the car rental, its not a big deal..

But it also brings up the issue with customers. if you have a known customer that's wealthy, like a Bill O'Reily, you can say you'd put the attractive young girl alone with him because it helps her career, but there's nothing wrong with sending two people instead, for example, to reduce the risk. My best female employee was such a go-getter she'd never complain about anything, but I still pieced together some of the less respectable customers..nothing over the top unprofessional, just creepy behavior..and those customers were on watch. I wouldn't tolerate any customer at any time treating an employee creepy, and I absolutely would always consider proactive measures to avoid it. Best for everyone. I liked my business no drama (which I'll probably regret when I'm 80!)

Business lunch with known work peers or work meetings or "were at a customer site and stopped to get lunch on the way back", at normal restaurants, this was not an issue IMO. I still avoided it personally because I didn't want to be a creepy boss, maybe I had just seen Ben Stiller in Dodgeball.
 
Lutherf said:
Not exactly. If you're an employee at a place that uses some kind of "sting" method in their hiring it's reasonable to assume that the tactic is part of the culture of the corporation. If it's part of the culture then, as an employee, you would be wise to walk on eggshells every day. For some of us, that would totally suck and, perhaps, be considered a form of harassment.
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Despite post 54 you hold the friend is a victim in the hiring process and perhaps himself sexually harassed by the hiring process? Which is indicative of a, I dunno, ~"culture of deceitful tests"? Or is the potential employee only harassed through repeated and unendurable tests that continue as part of the "culture".

Even if you don't answer any of it, tell me more about this culture. It smells like hazing.


Lutherf said:
Yep. I made that same change. It never occurred to me that it would be taken as being demeaning. I mean, "girl's night out" is perfectly acceptable....among women but if a guy says it there's the potential for it being taken as disrespect. NEVER would have crossed my mind.
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Girl is a diminutive in address of a woman at all let alone trained or educated. A female boss (or even male) is not okay calling you boy.

Call me boy best watch the **** out! ;)
 
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