How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?[W:59]

jimithyashford · Mar 20, 2017

So, I spent some time over the weekend in the company of people who, I do not know if they would call themselves MRAs, but they were definitely from the "feminism is BS, Feminism victimizes Men, Feminism seeks to turn men into cucks and betas, Feminism wants to weaken and socially displace Men, Feminism is the root of practically every problem for the modern male" school. I'm sure you know the type, and they really seemed to feel it deeply. They were resentful and angry at women that mad manipulated them into terrible relationships or dragged them along and used them or who got years worth of friendship out of them while making them feel the might have a chance but they never got any sex, or who made them feel ashamed for being a man and made them feel lost and helpless in the world etc etc etc, I'm sure you've all heard these things before as well.

So I didn’t argue with these guys, I just listened and probed, just listed and asked questions and nodded. And the prevailing theme seems to be that everything is women’s fault. It's women's fault they’re broke and women's fault their kid's dont speak to them and women's fault they have emotional issues its women's fault they drink it women’s fault they got that DUI, its women’s fault they don’t know what to do with their life. Women are bitches and shouldn’t be trusted and are only a pair and tits and ass and good for a **** them leave them, and it’s women’s fault they talk that way about women because of the way previous women victimized them.

So I am listening to this and I am just blown away. All I keep thinking is "Man, I have had a radically different experience with women than these guys."

I'm not an old salt, but I'm by no means a spring chicken either. I'm 30 and I've had plenty of relationships that ranged from one night stands up to full on cohabitating multi-year pseudo marriage and everything in between. I've had good relationships that made everything seem better and bad ones that gut you and require you to rebuild once they are over. All that jazz.

But I have hardly ever felt victimized even by a woman in particular and never felt victimized by women as a gender in general. I have never felt like I needed to feel ashamed for being a man. I have never felt like I have been displaced or had my masculine identity or social place undermined or threatened. I have never felt particularly manipulated or tricked or deceived by women. All of these experiences that these MRAish types go on and on about are just utterly foreign to me.

That is not to say I've never known crummy dishonest manipulative vain greedy women, of course I have, but not like, more so than men, not more so than just the average fact that occasionally in your life you come across such people. I certainly have never felt like women or feminists as some sort of coalition have wronged me in any way.

How is it that all of these men feel so oppressed and victimized by women and feminism, when I have never felt that way? How have I never run into these, apparently, incredibly personally affecting gender dynamics these guys all seem to have themselves wrapped up in knots over?

Am I just incredibly lucky? Do I just surround myself with a higher caliber of person and therefore don't usually end up romantically entangled with those types of people?

Or is it maybe that these resentful butt hurt old boys club is blind to the fact that they are their own biggest problem. I encounter the exact same social landscape they do, in fact most of my friends are liberal so I probably encounter even more of these ultra feminist types than they do, and yet I do not have these problems....that would indicate either there is something particularly special about me (which I don't think there is) or these guys are actually their own problem without realizing it.

And it can’t just be that I am not old enough or have not been in enough relationships for the true ugly side of women to have shown themselves to me. I know plenty of SUPER salty MRA types younger than I. And many who are older than I but have had fewer relationships. And plenty of old men who live their whole lives never getting this anti-women saltiness.

Henrin · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Ever hear the term toxic masculinity? Did you ever notice how feminists use that to describe whatever they don't like about male culture? Ever notice how feminists want to change men and their culture? Ever notice how feminists actually made it a point in the sixties and seventies to change the behavior of men? Ever notice how they are still doing that today? Why do feminists get to dictate to men how they will behave?

<alt>doxygen · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

jimithyashford said:
So I am listening to this and I am just blown away. All I keep thinking is "Man, I have had a radically different experience with women than these guys."

I'm not an old salt, but I'm by no means a spring chicken either. I'm 30 and I've had plenty of relationships that ranged from one night stands up to full on cohabitating multi-year pseudo marriage and everything in between. I've had good relationships that made everything seem better and bad ones that gut you and require you to rebuild once they are over. All that jazz.

But I have hardly ever felt victimized even by a woman in particular and never felt victimized by women as a gender in general. I have never felt like I needed to feel ashamed for being a man. I have never felt like I have been displaced or had my masculine identity or social place undermined or threatened. I have never felt particularly manipulated or tricked or deceived by women. All of these experiences that these MRAish types go on and on about are just utterly foreign to me.

That is not to say I've never known crummy dishonest manipulative vain greedy women, of course I have, but not like, more so than men, not more so than just the average fact that occasionally in your life you come across such people. I certainly have never felt like women or feminists as some sort of coalition have wronged me in any way.

How is it that all of these men feel so oppressed and victimized by women and feminism, when I have never felt that way? How have I never run into these, apparently, incredibly personally affecting gender dynamics these guys all seem to have themselves wrapped up in knots over?

Am I just incredibly lucky? Do I just surround myself with a higher caliber of person and therefore don't usually end up romantically entangled with those types of people?

Or is it maybe that these resentful butt hurt old boys club is blind to the fact that they are their own biggest problem. I encounter the exact same social landscape they do, in fact most of my friends are liberal so I probably encounter even more of these ultra feminist types than they do, and yet I do not have these problems....that would indicate either there is something particularly special about me (which I don't think there is) or these guys are actually their own problem without realizing it.

And it can’t just be that I am not old enough or have not been in enough relationships for the true ugly side of women to have shown themselves to me. I know plenty of SUPER salty MRA types younger than I. And many who are older than I but have had fewer relationships. And plenty of old men who live their whole lives never getting this anti-women saltiness.

I didn't get married until I was in my forties, so to say I had numerous relationships would be stating the obvious. I never called myself a victim of women, feminist or other, period. I did make mistakes and wound up in relationships with, err, nuts, but I noticed no correlation between nuttiness and feminism. I just viewed as my mistake, and I got the hell out.

My wife would call herself a feminist, but that would be a feminism from the mid-eighties when she graduated college. I would say we have a very equal relationship, and given that equality has been one of the things I've sought in a relationship, maybe I've just avoided the really poisonous ones. By equality here, I'm setting aside the obvious male and female differences and focusing on the idea that neither party is always dominant, has the last word, right no matter what, etc.

I will tell you something I started seeing in my early 30's : Divorcees and obvious 'rejects for good reason' start to become more prevalent. Not that there aren't still great ones out there, even among the divorcees with kids, but they become harder to find. I got lucky!:mrgreen:

Henrin · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Porkuloss said:
I didn't get married until I was in my forties, so to say I had numerous relationships would be stating the obvious. I never called myself a victim of women, feminist or other, period. I did make mistakes and wound up in relationships with, err, nuts, but I noticed no correlation between nuttiness and feminism. I just viewed as my mistake, and I got the hell out.

My wife would call herself a feminist, but that would be a feminism from the mid-eighties when she graduated college. I would say we have a very equal relationship, and given that equality has been one of the things I've sought in a relationship, maybe I've just avoided the really poisonous ones. By equality here, I'm setting aside the obvious male and female differences and focusing on the idea that neither party is always dominant, has the last word, right no matter what, etc.

I will tell you something I started seeing in my early 30's : Divorcees and obvious 'rejects for good reason' start to become more prevalent. Not that there aren't still great ones out there, even divorcees with kids, but they become harder to find. I got lucky!:mrgreen:

Did now that it was feminists that demanded the "equal" realtionship? Why do women get to tell me what to do more housework?

Manc Skipper · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

I'd suggest changing the company you keep to avoid infection with the man as victim virus.

<alt>doxygen · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
Did now that it was feminists that demanded the "equal" realtionship? Why do women get to tell me what to do more housework?

You need to re-read my post. Neither of us bosses the other around. Why do conservative women expect that men will always run in front of them and "hold the door"?

FWIW, my wife does most of the "housework" now, but she spent a good number of years bringing home 120K+ (was my equal there) and during that time we just hired someone to do it.

<alt>doxygen · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Manc Skipper said:
I'd suggest changing the company you keep to avoid infection with the man as victim virus.

True. Sounds like a bunch of crybabies.

Henrin · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Porkuloss said:
You need to re-read my post. Neither of us bosses the other around. Why do conservative women expect that men will always run in front of them and "hold the door"?

Then you didn't use the right word for your realtionship.

Henrin · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Porkuloss said:
True. Sounds like a bunch of crybabies.

MGTOW, MRA, and Red Pill are all growing movements. You might want to stop and listen at some point.

Skeptic Bob · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

If the whole MRA thing focused on legitimate issues like bias in the family courts and suicide rates among men I would take them seriously. But at some point they were taken over by misogynists who have had bad luck with women and can't take responsibility for their own failures. I love Bill Burr's standup also, but he is a comic, not a messiah.

MaggieD · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
Ever hear the term toxic masculinity? Did you ever notice how feminists use that to describe whatever they don't like about male culture? Ever notice how feminists want to change men and their culture? Ever notice how feminists actually made it a point in the sixties and seventies to change the behavior of men? Ever notice how they are still doing that today? Why do feminists get to dictate to men how they will behave?

Dr. Dean Edell, former radio talk show host and M.D., used to say (badly paraphrased), "If women insisted on men walking on their hands in order to have sex with them, half the men in the world would be upside down most of the time.

Henrin · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

MaggieD said:
Dr. Dean Edell, former radio talk show host and M.D., used to say (badly paraphrased), "If women insisted on men walking on their hands in order to have sex with them, half the men in the world would be upside down most of the time.

And he was right. That of is a good part of the problem too. I have been saying for a while now that men need to start standing up for themselves, but I never get a lot of listeners when I say it. Sigh.

Henrin · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Skeptic Bob said:
If the whole MRA thing focused on legitimate issues like bias in the family courts and suicide rates among men I would take them seriously. But at some point they were taken over by misogynists who have had bad luck with women and can't take responsibility for their own failures. I love Bill Burr's standup also, but he is a comic, not a messiah.

MRA focuses on rights issues.

Btw, talking about feminism and it's negative impacts on men is talking to a big reason for the suicide issue among men. Just sayin'.

And why in the hell is it always seen as being a woman hater for being anti-feminist? Feminists focus a great deal on social/culture ssues and very little really on rights issues. I can be against feminists frankly liberal view and goals for society, culture, gender roles, men's behavior and responsibility, and family and still not hate women. It's frankly insulting that men have to agree with women or they're women haters. Seriously, **** that ****.

X Factor · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
MRA focuses on rights issues.

Btw, talking about feminism and it's negative impacts on men is talking to a big reason for the suicide issue among men. Just sayin'.

And why in the hell is it always seen as being a woman hater for being anti-feminist? Feminists focus a great deal on social/culture ssues and very little really on rights issues. I can be against feminists frankly liberal view and goals for society, culture, gender roles, men's behavior and responsibility, and family and still not hate women.It's frankly insulting that men have to agree with women or they're women haters. Seriously, **** that ****.

While this might be true in some hypothetical sense, in your case many times you do come off as a woman hater.

jimithyashford · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
Ever hear the term toxic masculinity?

Yeah, I've run into a lot of it in my life, stupid sexist standards foisted upon men. It sucks. I certainly have never been hurt or been victimized by any women calling out toxic masculinity. In fact I've benefited in a few ways. Have you every been hurt or victimized by the highlighting of toxic masculinity?

Henrin said:
Ever notice how feminists want to change men and their culture?

I've heard lots of feminists say lots of smart and insightful things about male culture, and some say some stupid things. I've taken to heart the smart things and ignored the stupid things, pretty much the same way I treat all smart/stupid ideas. I've certainly never been hurt or victimized by it. Have you?

Henrin said:
Ever notice how feminists actually made it a point in the sixties and seventies to change the behavior of men?

In what way did the changes to the gender dynamic from the 60s and 70s hurt or victimize me? I have somehow managed to live my whole life without feeling somehow victimized by the fact that women of a previous generation fought for better pay and to have men at the office not slap their ass and call them Toots. I certainly have never felt my life experience or role as a man to be diminished because I can't make crude advances towards my female coworkers at the water cooler. Have you?

Henrin said:
Why do feminists get to dictate to men how they will behave?

Well, we do live in something called a society, where we call have to come together and agree to standards of behavior when dealing with each other. Everyone in a society gets a partial say on how everyone else gets to act. That's in the nature of community. Why do feminists get a say on the way men act? Because it effects them, the same reason that anyone in a society gets any any room or right or basis to influence/impact/correct/complain about anyone else's behavior.

Mr Person · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
MGTOW, MRA, and Red Pill are all growing movements. You might want to stop and listen at some point.

The last time I did that, I ended up reading 100 posts from a male complaining about men's pubic hair grooming habits....

jimithyashford · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Skeptic Bob said:
If the whole MRA thing focused on legitimate issues like bias in the family courts and suicide rates among men I would take them seriously. But at some point they were taken over by misogynists who have had bad luck with women and can't take responsibility for their own failures. I love Bill Burr's standup also, but he is a comic, not a messiah.

I pretty much agree. If MRAs dealt with real men's issues I'd be right there supporting them. If they dealt with family court issues, with male suicide rates and the effects of a cultural expectation of emotionless stiocism, with male on male rape (the vast majority of men who are raped are raped by other men), with a culture of violence and tough-guyism. If they primarily dealt with these things I would think they are legit. But those topics are pretty much just the posters they hang in the window to get people to come inside, ounce your inside it's just a big ole "blame the b*tches" fest.

Mr Person · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

jimithyashford said:
So I am listening to this and I am just blown away. All I keep thinking is "Man, I have had a radically different experience with women than these guys."

It's not just that. It is possible they were being completely honest about their various relationships and just so happened to have the worst luck on Earth. But,

A. I doubt that.

B. If someone a bad experience with a person belonging to X category (sex, race, whatever) and attributes that to everyone else in X category, that someone is an ***hole with his/her own personal issues.

C. If they have bad experiences with everyone belonging to X category, I start wondering why it might be that they always end up with persons in X category. Maybe they had the least luck on the planet. Probability more or less dictates it will happen to someone given enough time. But it's still not reasonable to conclude that everyone in X category is like that.

I certainly never had the kind of issues these MRA/MGTOW folk describe (I often sparred with one on another site), but that may simply be because I avoid a person if I determine that they are an ***hole regardless of what category they fall into. Unless you literally have to deal with them to accomplish something (ie, you are a lawyer and the judge is an ***hole), there really is no point bothering...

....unless it's an internet forum, you're bored, you respect the rules, and they deserve it.

jimithyashford · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
And he was right. That of is a good part of the problem too. I have been saying for a while now that men need to start standing up for themselves, but I never get a lot of listeners when I say it. Sigh.

Stand up for myself? I think I've been bullied by maybe two women my whole life. The vast majority of people who have attempted to bully or intimidate or strong arm or otherwise threaten me have been men, not women. What kind of women are you spending you time with that you feel the needs to constantly stand up for yourself?

Maybe you just need to hang out with better people?

Trippy Trekker · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

jimithyashford said:
So, I spent some time over the weekend in the company of people who, I do not know if they would call themselves MRAs, but they were definitely from the "feminism is BS, Feminism victimizes Men, Feminism seeks to turn men into cucks and betas, Feminism wants to weaken and socially displace Men, Feminism is the root of practically every problem for the modern male" school. I'm sure you know the type, and they really seemed to feel it deeply. They were resentful and angry at women that mad manipulated them into terrible relationships or dragged them along and used them or who got years worth of friendship out of them while making them feel the might have a chance but they never got any sex, or who made them feel ashamed for being a man and made them feel lost and helpless in the world etc etc etc, I'm sure you've all heard these things before as well.

So I didn’t argue with these guys, I just listened and probed, just listed and asked questions and nodded. And the prevailing theme seems to be that everything is women’s fault. It's women's fault they’re broke and women's fault their kid's dont speak to them and women's fault they have emotional issues its women's fault they drink it women’s fault they got that DUI, its women’s fault they don’t know what to do with their life. Women are bitches and shouldn’t be trusted and are only a pair and tits and ass and good for a **** them leave them, and it’s women’s fault they talk that way about women because of the way previous women victimized them.

So I am listening to this and I am just blown away. All I keep thinking is "Man, I have had a radically different experience with women than these guys."

I'm not an old salt, but I'm by no means a spring chicken either. I'm 30 and I've had plenty of relationships that ranged from one night stands up to full on cohabitating multi-year pseudo marriage and everything in between. I've had good relationships that made everything seem better and bad ones that gut you and require you to rebuild once they are over. All that jazz.

But I have hardly ever felt victimized even by a woman in particular and never felt victimized by women as a gender in general. I have never felt like I needed to feel ashamed for being a man. I have never felt like I have been displaced or had my masculine identity or social place undermined or threatened. I have never felt particularly manipulated or tricked or deceived by women. All of these experiences that these MRAish types go on and on about are just utterly foreign to me.

That is not to say I've never known crummy dishonest manipulative vain greedy women, of course I have, but not like, more so than men, not more so than just the average fact that occasionally in your life you come across such people. I certainly have never felt like women or feminists as some sort of coalition have wronged me in any way.

How is it that all of these men feel so oppressed and victimized by women and feminism, when I have never felt that way? How have I never run into these, apparently, incredibly personally affecting gender dynamics these guys all seem to have themselves wrapped up in knots over?

Am I just incredibly lucky? Do I just surround myself with a higher caliber of person and therefore don't usually end up romantically entangled with those types of people?

Or is it maybe that these resentful butt hurt old boys club is blind to the fact that they are their own biggest problem. I encounter the exact same social landscape they do, in fact most of my friends are liberal so I probably encounter even more of these ultra feminist types than they do, and yet I do not have these problems....that would indicate either there is something particularly special about me (which I don't think there is) or these guys are actually their own problem without realizing it.

And it can’t just be that I am not old enough or have not been in enough relationships for the true ugly side of women to have shown themselves to me. I know plenty of SUPER salty MRA types younger than I. And many who are older than I but have had fewer relationships. And plenty of old men who live their whole lives never getting this anti-women saltiness.

At age 30, you just may still have that "Super Guy" or "Super God" persona. IMO, better to be a "Has Been" than a "Never Was". I had about a 30 year righteous roll adhering to an anti-religious and spiritual philosophy that God generally put females on earth to challenge and delight males. I fathered four kids from three women... my first in my early 30s, 1989, and my last near my mid 50s, 2011. Family life became entangled and complicated. In hindsight, I own the damage I caused. It took a lot of work to regain smooth living. In 2010, I finally grasped the ethical and underlying reasons and the benefits to maintaining a monogamous relationship.

Hawkeye10 · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
MRA focuses on rights issues.

Btw, talking about feminism and it's negative impacts on men is talking to a big reason for the suicide issue among men. Just sayin'.

And why in the hell is it always seen as being a woman hater for being anti-feminist? Feminists focus a great deal on social/culture ssues and very little really on rights issues. I can be against feminists frankly liberal view and goals for society, culture, gender roles, men's behavior and responsibility, and family and still not hate women. It's frankly insulting that men have to agree with women or they're women haters. Seriously, **** that ****.

I agree and I note that this is not about feminism or MRA, this about about a bunch of guys comparing notes on the cruelty that they have experienced from women and the OP not believing them....he has decided that they must have deserved it so we can blow off their complaints(he claims otherwise but this is in the words), it was not cruelty, it was failure to be the right kind of man.

Which is of course what the feminists have taught us to do.

jimithyashford · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Henrin said:
MRA focuses on rights issues.

Btw, talking about feminism and it's negative impacts on men is talking to a big reason for the suicide issue among men. Just sayin'.

And why in the hell is it always seen as being a woman hater for being anti-feminist? Feminists focus a great deal on social/culture ssues and very little really on rights issues. I can be against feminists frankly liberal view and goals for society, culture, gender roles, men's behavior and responsibility, and family and still not hate women. It's frankly insulting that men have to agree with women or they're women haters. Seriously, **** that ****.

It's frankly insulting that men have to agree with women or they're women haters. Seriously, **** that ****.

Men have to agree with all women or they are woman haters? Who told you that? I disagree with tons of women and nobody calls be sexist. I don't know of any feminist that thinks a man has to agree with all women or he is sexist....are you sure this isn't just something you made up?

Are you saying that you've been told that a man has to agree with SOME women or he's a woman hater? Cause that is true. I mean there are 3.5 billion of them on earth, if you can't find at least a handful to agree with then yeah, you are probably sexist as hell.

jimithyashford · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Mr Person said:
The last time I did that, I ended up reading 100 posts from a male complaining about men's pubic hair grooming habits....

Last time I did that I ended up finding page after page complaining about women who wont suck your d even after you do nice things for them.

Henrin · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Hawkeye10 said:
I agree and I note that this is not about feminism or MRA, this about about a bunch of guys comparing notes on the cruelty that they have experienced from women and the OP not believing them....he has decided that they must have deserved it so we can blow off their complaints(he claims otherwise but this is in the words), it was not cruelty, it was failure to be the right kind of man.

Which is of course what the feminists have taught us to do.

To be fair to feminists, men were basically ***** wiped well before feminists ever came along. All men are doing these days is taking it to such an extreme that it ends undermining the entire male gender.

jimithyashford · Mar 20, 2017

Re: How Have I Avoided being Victimized by Feminism?

Hawkeye10 said:
I agree and I note that this is not about feminism or MRA, this about about a bunch of guys comparing notes on the cruelty that they have experienced from women and the OP not believing them....he has decided that they must have deserved it so we can blow off their complaints(he claims otherwise but this is in the words), it was not cruelty, it was failure to be the right kind of man.

Which is of course what the feminists have taught us to do.

Yeah cause that's what I said. Your reading comprehension skills are above reproach good sir.

Maybe, just maybe each and every MRA really has just had a terrible roll of the woman dice and had a life full of interacting with terrible b*tches. Or maybe I am just incredibly lucky and have managed to almost solely interact with fairly normal sane regular people.

That was the jist of my question. All of these MRAs go on and on about how terrible women are, but that is not my experience at all. So, I must ask you, am I, and all of the other people like me, just incredibly lucky? Are all of those MRAs just incredibly unlucky? Or does luck have nothing to do with it and it's a perception issue?

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