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Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"[W:295]

Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Why do I as a libertarian support an amendment that makes it so states cannot abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens, deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law, or deny to any person the equal protection of the laws?

Do I understand your question correctly?
You can't deny equal protection when those in question are not equal to begin with, progressive.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Why do I as a libertarian support an amendment that makes it so states cannot abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens, deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law, or deny to any person the equal protection of the laws?

Do I understand your question correctly?

Answer my question first. Do you agree that the courts have used the fourteenth amendment to expand government authority? Yes or no.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

I disagree, and my "perspective" is just as valid as yours.

So if I "feel like" your view is objectively wrong for everyone, that makes it true for me. ;)

If that's how you feel, then that's not objective.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

They were treated less like property than modern corporations do, they're slaves in everything but name and treated far worse. The founders slaves were treated more akin to a butler or maid who lives in a mansion.

Yeah, my bosses and I whip our workers all the time; we sell their offspring at auction too. :roll:
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

If that's how you feel, then that's not objective.
I feel that it is objective, so that makes it objective.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

The burden of proof is on those saying they are equal to make the case for it.

By the same token, the burden of proof would be on those to back up their claim that there is a constutionally supported argument against equality and heck, the Constitution is not that long, even with the amendments, so it should be pretty easy.

So tell me how can you call yourself a conservative if you adhere to the utilitarian ideology of John Stuart Mill, one of the forefathers of modern progressivism?

Like this; "hi, I'm X. I'm a conservative".
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

If one is a Constitutionalist who believes that the Bill of Rights have objective meaning, then of course courts cannot simply change and or re-amend the Constitution on a whim to mean whatever they want, and I see little to no evidence indicating that the Constitution as interpreted by its framers ever supported the notion of same-sex unions being equal to marriage between a man and a woman.

This notion actually has far more in common with the egalitarianism or utilitarianism of John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham (which completely rejected the notion of natural rights, and argued that rights come only from the state).

So if you claim to be a Constitutional libertarian, but support LGBT rights under the Constitution, then this means you believe in a 'living Constitution', and that the rights have no objective worth, but can simply be re-interpreted at the whim of the state to mean whatever they want.

Is there something in the constitution that gives the government the power to regulate marriage?
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

I feel that it is objective, so that makes it objective.

beyonce-laughing.gif
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

By the same token, the burden of proof would be on those to back up their claim that there is a constutionally supported argument against equality and heck, the Constitution is not that long, even with the amendments, so it should be pretty easy.



Like this; "hi, I'm X. I'm a conservative".
"Equality" as you define it is a concept from John Stuart Mill's utiltiarianism, which was decidedly a progressive system of defining "equality".

Biologically it can easily be proven that the unions are by no means equal.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

I feel that it is objective, so that makes it objective.

You keep using the word "objective". I do not think it means what you think it means.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Answer my question first. Do you agree that the courts have used the fourteenth amendment to expand government authority? Yes or no.

Federal authority over states? Yes. That was part of the intent of the amendment.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Federal authority over states? Yes. That was part of the intent of the amendment.

Then you admit that it was intended as a power grab? That wasn't what I asked though. When the courts ruled that business owners didn't have the right to deny service(aka the right to trade their property with who they see fit) because of the fourteenth amendment was that a power grab by the courts?
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

I feel that it is objective, so that makes it objective.

Now you are just messing with us.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

I disagree, and my "perspective" is just as valid as yours.

So if I "feel like" your view is objectively wrong for everyone, that makes it true for me. ;)

If you're going to claim something is objectively wrong the burden of proof is on you.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

If you're going to claim something is objectively wrong the burden of proof is on you.
The scientific theory of relativity already proves it as just one example, and I don't feel like discussing deep logical concepts that would probably fall on deaf ears.

But it's pretty apparent that homosexual activity is in no way 'equal' to heterosexual activity, denying that is just being obstinate.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Can I use this as a signature quote? The irony of it is almost stifling.

It's mine, all mine.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

No I believe it's objectively so, not personally. Meaning even if you disagree with me, I don't acknowledge your views, I simply dub them incorrect as if you'd told me the earth is flat.
Riiiiiiiight

Thing is, you can provide empirical evidence that the Earth is a sphere. It's significantly more difficult to provide empirical evidence that the 14th Amendment cannot possibly be interpreted any way other than how you interpret it.


For one, same-sex unions do not naturally result in children, therefore unlike straight unions they offer no benefit to the state or economy via the production of new citizens, therefore I see no reason for the state to incentivize the unions as it does with straight unions.
lol

Nothing in the Constitution provides any sort of rationale for the promotion of marriage. Nor do we refuse to allow two people to marry if they are incapable of bearing children, or uninterested in having children.

Equally important is that the citizens do not exist for the benefit of the state; the state exists for the benefit of the citizens.

I also have to say, it's hilarious that you simultaneously blast Mill and say that strict Constitutionalists should reject his views, while relying on utilitarian concepts and imputing utilitarian reasoning to the Founders.


I'm more sympathetic to slavery than I am "LGBT rights", as slavery while bad still has more economic value from a purely utilitarian staindpoint, while the latter is sheer perversity and nothing more than social bacteria festering in a petri dish. And disease has always killed far more than violence, moral disease included.
That's extremely messed up.

I don't think any sane person today would claim that the suffering caused by slavery -- let alone the subsequent social damage, lasting well over 150 years after the official end of slavery -- is justified by the labor produced by that system. They very idea is absurd.

Further, accepting homosexuality maximizes happiness without imposing any suffering on others. Straight people are not in any way, shape or form harmed by accepting LBGT rights. In fact, your prejudice does far more harm than acceptance, and produces no benefits to anyone.


And as mentioned, modern corporate sponsored slavery is far worse and on a much more massive scale than slavery circa the 1700s, and as many more Americans participate in said economy than owned slaves, there are also many more who enable it.
Sorry, but that's nonsense. Even if you include those who are stuck providing cheap labor in the Prison Industrial Complex, it's not even remotely comparable. Your statements indicate that you don't understand slavery -- perhaps willfully so. It's not endearing.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

The scientific theory of relativity already proves it as just one example, and I don't feel like discussing deep logical concepts that would probably fall on deaf ears.

But it's pretty apparent that homosexual activity is in no way 'equal' to heterosexual activity, denying that is just being obstinate.

And they deny it all the time. :lol:
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

You can't deny equal protection when those in question are not equal to begin with, progressive.

Is that you, Tigger?
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

First new troll on the new server?
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Then you admit that it was intended as a power grab? That wasn't what I asked though. When the courts ruled that business owners didn't have the right to deny service(aka the right to trade their property with who they see fit) because of the fourteenth amendment was that a power grab by the courts?

Power grab? Forbidding the states from infringing on individual liberty is not exactly something I would call a power grab, particularly when it is ratified into the Constitution but...ok...

I don't think that anyone has taken the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to federal court.

I think you might be thinking of some isolated state court decisions.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Power grab? Forbidding the states from infringing on individual liberty is not exactly something I would call a power grab, particularly when it is ratified into the Constitution but...ok...

I don't think that anyone has taken the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to federal court.

I think you might be thinking of some isolated state court decisions.

How would you define individual liberty though? That phrase doesn't really mean anything by itself, so go ahead and define it.

Oh and yes, the 1964 civil rights act was taken to the supreme court. The court ruled it is constitutional because of the commerce clause and the fourteenth amendment. Both of those arguments are however trash. A motel(the case in question involved a motel) doesn't involve itself in interstate commerce, but commerce from one location, and nothing in the fourteenth amendment deals with business owners. They were also wrong when they said it didn't violate the thirteenth amendment when quite clearly forcing people to trade their property is forcing them into labor.
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

The scientific theory of relativity already proves it as just one example,
The idea that an object will stay in motion unless acted on by an outside force? I don't see what that has to do with homosexuality, you're going to have to explain that one

and I don't feel like discussing deep logical concepts that would probably fall on deaf ears.
Than your claims are not proven. Why make them?

But it's pretty apparent that homosexual activity is in no way 'equal' to heterosexual activity, denying that is just being obstinate.
I won't deny it but if you make a claim it's your burden to prove it. And if you're here just to street preach you're in the wrong forum
 
Re: Why you can't support LGBT rights and be a Constitutional "libertarian"

Riiiiiiiight

Thing is, you can provide empirical evidence that the Earth is a sphere. It's significantly more difficult to provide empirical evidence that the 14th Amendment cannot possibly be interpreted any way other than how you interpret it.



lol

Nothing in the Constitution provides any sort of rationale for the promotion of marriage. Nor do we refuse to allow two people to marry if they are incapable of bearing children, or uninterested in having children.
That would be too hard to enforce, but since we know by default that a same sex union can never result in children, we can discriminate against it from the get-go.

Equally important is that the citizens do not exist for the benefit of the state; the state exists for the benefit of the citizens.
The intent of marriage benefits was to incentivize unions which provide some type of societal benefit via the production of citizens.

I also have to say, it's hilarious that you simultaneously blast Mill and say that strict Constitutionalists should reject his views, while relying on utilitarian concepts and imputing utilitarian reasoning to the Founders.
We're talking about state marriage laws and their intents.

That's extremely messed up.

I don't think any sane person today would claim that the suffering caused by slavery -- let alone the subsequent social damage, lasting well over 150 years after the official end of slavery -- is justified by the labor produced by that system. They very idea is absurd.

Further, accepting homosexuality maximizes happiness without imposing any suffering on others.
No it doesn't, as homosexuality increases misery via the propagation of vice, therefore minimizing happiness by encouraging people to engage in a behavior that provides only short-term fulfillment but leads to their suffering and correlates with greater societal harm as well.

Yet, apparently, doesn't seem to think slavery is that big of a deal.[/QUOTE
Straight people are not in any way, shape or form harmed by accepting LBGT rights. In fact, your prejudice does far more harm than acceptance, and produces no benefits to anyone.
Society is harmed by the mentalities and behaviors which go alongside the propagation of homosexuality, so it affects all of society and our ecosystem in an indirect and negative way.

Hatred of vice and societal disease is the right emotion to feel about evil, and does indeed benefit society by guarding it from disease and deviance which of course just like biological disease, is contagious.
 
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